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Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,432
See, both of those aren't the same as this either, at least in my opinion. Those words put together, devoid of the original context, do not convey the same thing as they do with the original context.

This joke on the other hand means the same thing both with and without context, which is why I'm being so hard on it.
And that's totally valid.
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
Accound done yesterday, 2 post, that pic... is a troll.

What makes me think... this is probably the thread that had more trolls on Era (maybe excluding the long women thread). What gives? It's because CDPR or just the stars aligned that way?

I saw the same signs and figured the same, but I'm always happy to reply assuming better :/
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,205
Now you are trying to bait instead of trying to understand how things like these can end up happening.



Yes, I can. I am not discounting the mistake. But I also don't call for people to be fired who I believe had no malicious intent.. It's who I am and you are not changing that. That is why to me it matters. Malicious intent or just a mistake.
I don't understand why you would repeat a joke you don't understand or find funny, no.
 

Deleted member 17207

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,208
CDPR parent company has also had gog make a gamersgate reference as well a few weeks ago. So It's hard not to blame CDPR or whoever when it seems like this is just how the company is. I am sure it's not the whole company but this is not a one time thing.
Ah, well that's something I was unaware of. What specifically was the comment?

Right, just going to say this.

You can call something wrong without calling the person wrong (As in a bad person), 100%

It is not wrong to say that this meme is absolutely bigoted and the PR guy should disown saying it and apologize for the harm caused, not the perceived "offence".

You can demand an apology for a transgression and still respect the person. In fact more so when the person owns up to the power of their words and learns from it.

Because that is what is honestly lacking here. A little more respect and humility would be welcome especially since at the end of the day, it costs nothing to listen and learn from your mistakes.
Yes, that's a completely fair point.
 

Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,113
Ah, well that's something I was unaware of. What specifically was the comment?

Yes, that's a completely fair point.
It was this tweet:
619fe8d734594c103cdec6457236b20b434199630f534f08ccc2acfdd28faf67.png

August 28 2014 is the day gamergate started, funnily enough this tweet Imo could have been more credibly excused with "they didn't know the unfortunate implications behind the joke" that the cyberpunk tweet.
 
Dec 4, 2017
11,481
Brazil
I'm so tired of seem people doing drive-by posts that not only dismiss bigotry and prejudice, but have 0 interest in the topic.
And they get offended because we don't support this behavior. Guess what, you are not forced to post here if you don't care about it. There isn't a magnet that pulls people here.
 

Zacmortar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,383
I'm so tired of seem people doing drive-by posts that not only dismiss bigotry and prejudice, but have 0 interest in the topic.
And they get offended because we don't support this behavior. Guess what, you are not forced to post here if you don't care about it. There isn't a magnet that pulls people here.
Oh but there is a magnet! Can't let those ne'er-do-well liberals dare insult the company that makes the games I like, which are a much greater priority than their lives. :)
 

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,687
Elysium
I'm so tired of seem people doing drive-by posts that not only dismiss bigotry and prejudice, but have 0 interest in the topic.
And they get offended because we don't support this behavior. Guess what, you are not forced to post here if you don't care about it. There isn't a magnet that pulls people here.

I think they are from gaf or something, personally.
 

Loanshark

Member
Nov 8, 2017
1,637
I'll agree that the level of aggression I'm seeing here based on this tweet is surprising to me, but also not surprising I suppose..

No, that's not really what I'm saying at all. Your second point is right, but like those people, they don't know any better because they hadn't really been educated to a level to understand why that insult is incredibly insulting to a certain group of people. Words and expressions morph, and people become desensitized to their origins. I'm not saying that using the word "faggot" to mean "stupid" is okay because people don't know any better, I'm saying that assuming that the person saying that is coming from a harmful place, especially a place to specifically insult that group of people that the original insult was meant to insult, is presumptuous and possibly a little dangerous. I'm not saying that the guy isn't apathetic either though, maybe he is. I'm just saying that I've heard people who support the LGBT community use that phrase because it's been used as a joke for so many other things at this point, and the origin is no longer really thought of.

It's incredibly difficult to have a conversation about this though, because the second someone comes from my point of view (of defending the person who made the joke) they're already placed into the same category. I'm not defending bigotry, I'm just not so quick to call someone a bigot and demand an apology. I don't get offended easily though (not to imply anyone who is offended DOES get offended easily), and I'm not so quick to make a judgement call based on something stupid they might've said. Some of the best people I know have said some of the dumbest things I've heard, doesn't mean I immediately think they're a bad person.

Again, the tweet was stupid and the person should've known better. I just don't think people should be so quick to say "CDPR is bigoted and hates trans people" like I've been seeing.
Agreed. Going to repost something i wrote eariler in this thread, because I think it speaks to your point:

The scenario you describe here is one of the instances in which i think its possible to use a term casually or even recklessly, without considering the implications. I recognize these same situations from where i grew up, using our variants of the term "gay" as an adjective, words such as "retard" etc. We all know better now, still, its obvious that not everyone who used that langauage back then was a homophobe or despised people with disabilities, they simply didnt stop to reflect more deeply about the implicit message and its harmfulness. I think that the frase "did you just assume my gender?" could maybe be a lot less obvious in comparison, since it doesnt contain a slur, and its maliciousness is more contextual. It is perfectly possible to hear a term in passing several times without reflecting on it very much, nor bother to investigate it to its full extent and then proceed to fumble when you try to use it. People rightfully pointed out that the term shouldnt be used that way, and its a fair argument that a person handling a companys twitter account shouldnt be making mistakes like that, but i certainly think its possible that there was no real ill intent behind it. Era is exceptionally finely tuned to these issues, but people who arent wont immediately understand all of the implications of the term, even if it might seem obvious to some. Just imagine all the frases and terminology that circulate online and in the real world, and how little processing a large portion of it recieves if its not in the sphere of a persons interests. A person might infer that something is straight forward, not bother to think about it further, and then try to apply it somewhere to ill effect.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,094
If you're wondering why people are so "aggressive" on the thread...
Good image and message, but it's really as simple as "Transphobia isn't a valid opinion." There's no middle-ground between "inclusivity for all genders" and "trans people are gross and don't deserve respect or rights". The equivocating "b-bu-bu-but I have opinions and you don't respect them!" is total bullshit because those opinions are destructive and ignorant.
 

Flammable D

Member
Oct 30, 2017
15,205
Good image and message, but it's really as simple as "Transphobia isn't a valid opinion." There's no middle-ground between "inclusivity for all genders" and "trans people are gross and don't deserve respect or rights". The equivocating "b-bu-bu-but I have opinions and you don't respect them!" is total bullshit because those opinions are destructive and ignorant.
that's what he was saying
 

Stryder

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,530
US
I'll agree that the level of aggression I'm seeing here based on this tweet is surprising to me, but also not surprising I suppose..

No, that's not really what I'm saying at all. Your second point is right, but like those people, they don't know any better because they hadn't really been educated to a level to understand why that insult is incredibly insulting to a certain group of people. Words and expressions morph, and people become desensitized to their origins. I'm not saying that using the word "faggot" to mean "stupid" is okay because people don't know any better, I'm saying that assuming that the person saying that is coming from a harmful place, especially a place to specifically insult that group of people that the original insult was meant to insult, is presumptuous and possibly a little dangerous. I'm not saying that the guy isn't apathetic either though, maybe he is. I'm just saying that I've heard people who support the LGBT community use that phrase because it's been used as a joke for so many other things at this point, and the origin is no longer really thought of.

It's incredibly difficult to have a conversation about this though, because the second someone comes from my point of view (of defending the person who made the joke) they're already placed into the same category. I'm not defending bigotry, I'm just not so quick to call someone a bigot and demand an apology. I don't get offended easily though (not to imply anyone who is offended DOES get offended easily), and I'm not so quick to make a judgement call based on something stupid they might've said. Some of the best people I know have said some of the dumbest things I've heard, doesn't mean I immediately think they're a bad person.

Again, the tweet was stupid and the person should've known better. I just don't think people should be so quick to say "CDPR is bigoted and hates trans people" like I've been seeing.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Assumptions can lead to a dangerous place. No one is saying we know for sure this person had said this with no ill intent, but it might not be correct to immediately assume they knew what they were saying when so many (including myself) didn't know it was so offensive. I'm glad I never really used the "joke" before, but I certainly have heard many use it and I know some of these people are for the LGBT community.

I feel like some people who come from this sentiment may have not really expressed it fully and been banned because they said "this is blown way out of proportion" or "This is stupid".
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
Couldn't agree more with this post. Assumptions can lead to a dangerous place. No one is saying we know for sure this person had said this with no ill intent, but it might not be correct to immediately assume they knew what they were saying when so many (including myself) didn't know it was so offensive. I'm glad I never really used the "joke" before, but I certainly have heard many use it and I know some of these people are for the LGBT community.

I feel like some people who come from this sentiment may have not really expressed it fully and been banned because they said "this is blown way out of proportion" or "This is stupid".
Because those in the LGBT community do not need to be told that their reactions are stupid or not somehow meeting someone's definition of proportional.

Besides, ignorance is no excuse, frankly. Not when you're meant to be representing your company in a paid role.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
Couldn't agree more with this post. Assumptions can lead to a dangerous place. No one is saying we know for sure this person had said this with no ill intent, but it might not be correct to immediately assume they knew what they were saying when so many (including myself) didn't know it was so offensive. I'm glad I never really used the "joke" before, but I certainly have heard many use it and I know some of these people are for the LGBT community.

I feel like some people who come from this sentiment may have not really expressed it fully and been banned because they said "this is blown way out of proportion" or "This is stupid".
Except we have gone over this again and again in this thread.
There is no context where this meme is not transphobic. The joke literally does not work without the transphobic punchline.

Either they knew what it meant and said it anyway or they didn't know what it meant, which they absolutely should have as someone who manages the social media account.
And why would you ever use a joke that you do not understand yourself?

I hate the people jumping to their defense just because they personally didn't know what it meant. THEY SHOULD HAVE. that's the issue
 

Dice

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,240
Canada
oh my god what is this topic.

Do we have to defend people's "rights" to say something stupid (let alone this MASSIVE elephant in the room like it's potential for harm against vulnerable peoples)?

Is this like "n-word-related" dialogues? I understand that no one wants to be told what they can't do... but get over it, this world is on fire right now and the last thing it needs is piddly commentary about your right to say a bad and not-even-funny "line" allegedly said in the name of "good humor" and defending ignorance.

Would you be the same as folk 'defending' rape jokes (because "it's just a joke!")?
 

KNECHT

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
299
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
 

Fanta

Member
May 27, 2018
508
I'm still trying to figure out where this super secret secondary joke is that so many people are raving about to defend the social media person.
 

LiK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,054
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.

Everything was explained in the OP and yet they continued.
 

P-Switch

Alt Account
Member
Jul 15, 2018
966
Holy shit 41 pages. Please don't tell me that this thread got this long because people can't agree that the joke is inappropriate.

In case anyone is wondering (I'm interested!), and since it's the first thing mentioned in the mod edited OP....

This transphobic tweet has brought out among restera members:

36 perma bans

59 bans ranging from 3 days - 1 month

7 bans with duration pending
 
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Arkanim94

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,113
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
Actually it solve the issue of sock puppet account used only to troll people when the right situation arise.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
I mean I personally would give them a warning first, there seem to be quite a lot of insta bans these days. But ultimately it's not like the bans are super long and we are a forum that doesn't tolerate transphobic discussions so...
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
"Two sides"
There has been plenty of attempts to educate in this thread, which is more than we should be expected to do.
Being a decent human being is not hard. This isn't a "but both sides" issue. Bigotry is bad full stop and transphobia should not be downplayed.
 

Clix

Banned
User Banned (Permanent): History of severe infractions and downplaying sensitive topics.
Ima be real with you, this malicious and I'm sick of how gamers treat this shit. This is just like when it "wasn't homophobic" to use gay as a replacement for stupid/things-the-user-doesnt-like, I'm so fucking tired of the casual bigotry out of gamers, I'm sick of trap memes and attack helicopters and assuming my gender garbage it's fucking bigotry you just think it isn't malicious because it's a popular thing to do but it's both malicious and popular

Life's not that simple.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
In case anyone is wondering (I'm interested!), and since it's the first thing mentioned in the mod edited OP....

This transphobic tweet has brought out among restera members:

36 perma bans

59 bans from ranging from 3 days - 1 month

7 bans with duration pending
It's good to have a thread like this every once in a while to expose the bigots.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,432
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ah...yeah, let me know how talking to bigots trying to fix their behavior is going for you.

Life's not that simple.

It's pretty simple to be sick of people acting like shit for lulz.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,902
Horribly dismissive comment that is fully transphobic and should be called out by everyone.

Anyone supporting this deserves their ban or warning etc...
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
Convince them of what? To not treat transgender people with contempt?

To not defend transphobia above people who are hurt by it?

I'm sure some people can be talked to, I don't care if that place isn't here where people really don't want to have to explain to people why they have a right to dignity and the right to not be belittled for who they are.
 

KNECHT

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
299
"Two sides"
There has been plenty of attempts to educate in this thread, which is more than we should be expected to do.
Being a decent human being is not hard. This isn't a "but both sides" issue. Bigotry is bad full stop and transphobia should not be downplayed.

I'm sure some of those banned aren't transphobic, just aren't capable to understand that this could offend some people and I think this could be solved just talking...
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
So our trans posters should have to deal with transphobia then?

Cause I'm not sure people are being banned in an attempt to change their minds.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,432
I'm sure some of those banned aren't transphobic, just aren't capable to understand that this could offend some people and I think this could be solved just talking...

You're probably right, but the ones being banned are usually the ones flying in someone's face about some nonsense that has nothing to do with the actual topic and who's point boils down to little more than "man, people are thin skinned these days, but I'm not gonna change myself because I'm not the problem!" They're the problem.

Also I came at you kind of hard last post, that's my fault. I came from another police shooting thread and that got me a little worked up.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I'm sure some of those banned aren't transphobic, just aren't capable to understand that this could offend some people and I think this could be solved just talking...
What like the drive by posts?
The people arguing in bad faith?
The constant downplaying of transphobia despite the obvious and very well written explanation in the OP?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
In case anyone is wondering (I'm interested!), and since it's the first thing mentioned in the mod edited OP....

This transphobic tweet has brought out among restera members:

36 perma bans

59 bans from ranging from 3 days - 1 month

7 bans with duration pending
I know! Good lord this thread is wild to read. Every page you'll see at least one:

"User Banned (Permanent): Attempting to rationalise transphobia; history of dismissive behaviour in sensitive discussions."

I see it as a bug zapper
GettyImages-535003478-576099233df78c98dc758f60.jpg


It's not the purpose of the thread though obviously, the discussion on why this shit shouldn't be tolerated, and showing solidarity are the main reasons
This post comparing the threat to a bug zapper is right. Some people can't help themselves. They can't talk about things in a way that isn't hostile towards the trans and nonbinary community. And they pour in en masse and get zapped.

Anyway, it's pretty clear.
1. The tweet is awful and transphobic. Even if it was done out ignorance than malice. It's not okay. It's also troubling that a game that's supposed to be about cutting edge discussion on the nature of humanity, our minds, our society and how all of that gets upended when we can modify, augment and switch bodies is so tone deaf about this.
2. The person who wrote the tweet should probably lose their job.
3. The apology wasn't good enough.
 

Dalik

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,528
It's a bad taste joke, obviously.

But banning all these people?, seems too hard for me. It would be easier to just talk and try to convice people instead making only two separated groups, banning them and call that users intolerants won't solve anything.
This is like the only forum on the internet which I, as lgbt, feel not discriminated so I say thank you to mods and users supporting. Some people will never learn.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
If you're wondering why people are so "aggressive" on the thread, aside from the almost hundred bans that are excusing transphobic messaging, and aside the fact that CDPR gave no fucks to give an actual apology, this might explain a bit more why people are angry:

tolerance.png


People are not willing to give the benefit of the doubt because of obvious reasons that are not just confined in one country, not in this time, and not because of "culture differences", specially when you are representing a company to an international audience.


They simply want to take the free speech route so that they can link their post in whatever crap hole they post and show how the "left" is the real fascism or something equally or more insane.

I'm going to push back every time this image gets used. The Nazis didn't gain power because people said "let's give them a chance", even from the standpoint of elections. It's an exceptional dumbing down of the rise of nazism, and further tries to link Popper's comments directly to Nazi Germany for a spooky Godwin's Law mic drop (while the book spends some time talking about the rise of fascism, I don't think he ever even mentioned Nazis in the original book.) Redistributed comics are no substitute for actually arguing an opinion.
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,350
Life's not that simple.
Yeah because what's more important is the right for people to use bigoted language so long as they totally don't know it's bad to do so.

Because guess what. People who are downtrodden, who wake up each day to transphobia, to hatred and people who don't want them to even exist, there's no distinction. The hurt doesn't change when you see hate depending on whether the perpetrators "meant it" or not.

You've spent a great deal trying to get people to understand the "other side". How about understanding from.the view of those who are victims of hate and not dismissing them with "life sucks, get over it".
 

Ragnarsson

Member
Oct 27, 2017
894
Lisbon, Portugal
Also, talking about empathy is kinda funny how most people here refuse to consider different cultures, social habits and considerations to these questions without thinking what is not american/occidental is automatically bad. Resetera is becoming the caricature it wanted to avoid imo.
The amount of agression and the refutal of any debate is mental.

But transphobia is inherently bad. Cultural differences and social habits mean very little in this debate. Suppose this kind of behavior is accepted in Poland. Does it make this post any less condemnable? It's still a transphobic meme. Cultural background doesn't change the fact that the post contains bigoted content.

And look, LGBT people are more than well aware of different cultures and social habits. It's deeply ingrained in our daily lives. Can I kiss my boyfriend here without fear of repercussion? Is it alright to treat him as my boyfriend in this social context? Will I be treated unfairly at work for being gay? I'm talking to my boyfriend over the phone and I'm mostly surrounded by old people, do I use masculine forms of words or do I change the whole sentence to be neutral (this is a recurring problem, since I speak Portuguese)? If we travel abroad, will we be discriminated against for being gay? We know we are surrounded by different social and cultural contexts, and we even conform to those contexts most times, because it's way easier than constantly engage in fights or arguments. It doesn't change the fact that being discriminated against, wherever you are, whatever your sociocultural background, whether the one discriminating is aware or unaware of what he's doing, whether through "playful banter" or intimidation, is wrong. It's morally reprehensible.
 

Vesper

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,672
I wonder where all these guys defending CDPR with their lives would be if EA was the one who tweeted that "joke".
 

KNECHT

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
299
Also I came at you kind of hard last post, that's my fault. I came from another police shooting thread and that got me a little worked up.

Don't worry, it's ok

Maybe I'm being naive, but I wish we could solve these things talking. Don't be harsh with me, I'm not defending intolerance (and sometimes I have problems with English)
 

azfaru

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,273
User Banned (1 Month): Downplaying transphobia. Junior account.
yall are so sensitive. i just find that this day and age everything is a minefield.
 

Eumi

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,518
Don't worry, it's ok

Maybe I'm being naive, but I wish we could solve these things talking. Don't be harsh with me, I'm not defending intolerance (and sometimes I have problems with English)
Even if you weren't being naive, what you want would make this place less welcoming for minorities as they would have to post alongside people who despise them.
 
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