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Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,326
You don't know that. And signs point to the opposite. 40 with a brain of an 85 year old and dementia. You're going to look me in the eye straight faced and say that had absolutely nothing to do with it? Get the fuck outta town.

I'm saying that you don't place bibles by people and kill yourself afterwards if your brain doesn't work.

Unless you're trying to argue that he murdered his son in the heat of the moment?

I hold the WWE responsible for the treatment of its performers. I hold Chris Benoit responsible for murdering his wife and son. I don't hold the WWE responsible for murdering Chris Benoit's wife and son.
 
May 5, 2018
7,353
latest


Not in any official capacity, that's for sure.
Drop the crack Pat.

Serious answer, I think it's fine to talk about his career and matches as facts or for simply discussing wrestling history. But it's not worth celebrating at all since what he did to his family and himself is incredibly tragic and horrid.
 

Wigdogger

Member
Oct 27, 2017
513
I was a pretty huge Benoit fan at the time (I'd say one of his biggest fans), but I'd stopped watching wrestling, really, about two years earlier. I only watched sporadically. When that murder-suicide happened, I pretty much realized that the guy who was supposed to be one of the best was an absolute monster. It really made me realize that business had some real problems. Even crazier, I happened to purchase and watch his commemorative DVD on that very weekend. Seeing the images of him crying about Eddie, celebrating with his family... yeah, that was pretty wild, considering he was probably killing them as I was watching that.

Obviously, the parts of his career that were so memorable also led to the CTE, paranoia and religious fervor that swept Benoit up at the end. It helps us understand the possible "reasons" but never justifies the sick acts that he perpetrated.

As for the RAW show, I always knew when I watched it that Malenko and Regal knew something was off. If you can, go back and watch their comments (both are on youtube). Malenko weirdly sends condolences to Benoit's fans (like they'll never be able to look at him the same way). He also talks about how quiet and private Benoit was. He also just seems very numb about the whole thing, trying to sort out his emotions more than usual. Notice how he doesn't talk about the family at all. He ends it by referring to Benoit again in the light of the road and wrestling -- nothing else.

And Regal is even more telling. Only talks for like 45 seconds, and says: "All I've got to say at the moment is that Chris was the absolute hardest worker... most absorbed person with the business." He talks about one day being able to tell stories about Chris, etc. You can tell he realizes something is really wrong. He doesn't want to speak words he can't walk back.
 
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Nouzka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
52
Some people don't like discussing him because any tiny consideration that his CTE played a factor in the atrocious murder/suicide makes folks uncomfortable. Why? It can be seen as taking the blame off of him to a degree, and lessening what he did. It gets complicated, and the only thing I know is that I don't think you should separate his career, his CTE, and the terrible thing he did. And to try and claim the CTE played no part, in my opinion, is silly.

All around, it's tragic and fucked up.

I think many (me included) have a problem with that some people think his CTE was sole reason for his actions. Too many things he did seems to me that Benoit actions were clearly thought out, like for example he was searching from internet quickest way to break neck and that murders and suicide happened on three day period. And he had a history of beating Nancy. But I agree about that his concussions and other injuries certainly affected his state of mind.

I recommend listening/reading Nancy Benoit's sisters interview with Chris Jericho on his podcast about her thoughts what happened and why.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,467
I'm saying that you don't place bibles by people and kill yourself afterwards if your brain doesn't work.

Unless you're trying to argue that he murdered his son in the heat of the moment?

I hold the WWE responsible for the treatment of its performers. I hold Chris Benoit responsible for murdering his wife and son. I don't hold the WWE responsible for murdering Chris Benoit's wife and son.
CTE makes people do a lot of crazy shit. Mike Webster was self mutilating himself and living out of his truck before he offed himself. And there's a lot of stories of CTE causing this kind of derangement. You can't honestly say he had his total faculties during this. I think the wwe had a bigger hand in it than youre wanting to admit.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,126
I'm saying that you don't place bibles by people and kill yourself afterwards if your brain doesn't work.

Does someone do that when they are perfectly sound of mind? The scientific evidence is there. Benoit had the brain of an 80 year old with dementia. People are just in denial of it because apparently bringing up the medical reasons for why he might have acted the way he did somehow excuses him of his actions or something. Would we be better off just saying he was possessed by the devil?
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,970
Ah ok....um.... I liked that he could do a powerbowb from top ropes in one of the old videogames.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,842
I don't think you'll get shamed for bringing up his career at all. You just have to do it in the context of what happened later
 

Commodore64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,264
I mean guys like Jericho and Austin have no interest in bringing up Benoits legacy and they worked some of their greatest matches against him. And this point I'm not even sure how you could contextualize discussion of his career and matches.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,467
Does someone do that when they are perfectly sound of mind? The scientific evidence is there. Benoit had the brain of an 80 year old with dementia. People are just in denial of it because apparently bringing up the medical reasons for why he might have acted the way he did somehow excuses him of his actions or something. Would we be better off just saying he was possessed by the devil?
Exactly. Dude did a horrible, horrible thing. But to act like benoit would have done this if he had a healthy brain is a bit presumptuous to me. CTE had a big affect on the actions this man took. That is undeniable.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
It's ridiculous that the WWE have just eradicated him from history.

Yes what he did was abhorrent but like it or not he was still a wwe champion and trying to erase that is stupid.
 

Murkas

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
615
Always baffled by how you have wrestling fans who are weird about this, the guy brutalised his wife and strangled his son. Let it go.


Also I didn't really know of Benoit before he joined WWE but why does the whole CTE thing fall on WWE? Wasn't he wrestling for other organisations a lot longer than WWE which was what, 2001-2007ish? Did the crazy head bumps only happen in WWE? Always been confused about this.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,650
It's ridiculous that the WWE have just eradicated him from history.

Yes what he did was abhorrent but like it or not he was still a wwe champion and trying to erase that is stupid.
Nobody can erase history, what happened happened but they don't have to acknowledge it. Why would you want them to? The guy killed his wife and son.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,209
Also I didn't really know of Benoit before he joined WWE but why does the whole CTE thing fall on WWE? Wasn't he wrestling for other organisations a lot longer than WWE which was what, 2001-2007ish? Did the crazy head bumps only happen in WWE? Always been confused about this.

He wrestled in WCW and New Japan prior to going to WWE. The reason people point to WWE is because this happened under their employment of him, so a lot of the blame is there.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,760
Nothing wrong with analyzing his matches. He was very skilled.

But it's all I can think about whenever I've watched a Benoit match since it happened.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
It's ridiculous that the WWE have just eradicated him from history.

Yes what he did was abhorrent but like it or not he was still a wwe champion and trying to erase that is stupid.

I was a huge fan of Benoit plus the whole Canadian thing, hell I remember the day after a co worker said maybe Benoit killed them I basically ripped into the guy saying that would never happen, that he was not that type of person.

Benoit is a bittersweet memory, I loved his in ring work, was such a big fan but since then I've learned he was kinda a shitty person (see the Miz) and considering he did what he did......I understand why the WWE won't mention him because the crime no matter Benoits state of mind was absolutely horrible.

The kicker is if he had killed himself it would have been called a tragedy and people would be mourning him, WWE would probably have an award in his name if not tournament. But he didn't end his own life, he went beyond that.........and it's a dark place that makes it impossible to celebrate the man.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
It's hard. Before the murders, this was for me one of the greatest moments in pro wrestling:

QpQcetc.png


He will never not be one of the greatest wrestlers ever, but it's tough for me to even think about watching his matches or promos.


This. I mean that picture just brings back how I had tears in my eyes when I saw it happen. It was perhaps one of the greatest wrestling moments I've ever seen and I'd be lying if at the time I would have told you that Benoit was the greatest wrestler I had ever seen.

Now it's extremely difficult to talk about his legacy and what he did for the sport. You can't seperate the two things honestly. As much as I want to hold some nostalgia for how he entertained me on a nightly basis it's tough to have a conversation without bringing in what he did to his family as context.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,650
Does someone do that when they are perfectly sound of mind? The scientific evidence is there. Benoit had the brain of an 80 year old with dementia. People are just in denial of it because apparently bringing up the medical reasons for why he might have acted the way he did somehow excuses him of his actions or something. Would we be better off just saying he was possessed by the devil?
But the science doesn't tell us that that made him violent or what reaction it had on his disposition or how much it contributed, He was also a pill addict and he drank, who knows how much that played into it, but people don't seem to bring that up, so yeah I do think people want to excuse what he did on some level by making it seem like he was a victim when he was also an addict and even if his brain was messed up, it was messed up doing something he chose to do.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,182
Chris Benoit was my favorite wrestler from the first time he was on Nitro until his death. Unfortunately he has also committed a horrific double murder, so no, you can never talk about his career with that huge asterisks hovering over the discussion.

Even watching his matches, his rabid wolverine persona is really uncomfortable to see, knowing what he did later. Every headbutt, even every blade job, it is just so uncomfortable to watch.

Part of it is just that wrestling is too close to reality to go with a disconnecting the character from the actor like you would if it was a movie or regular TV series .
 

Rangerx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,494
Dangleberry
The guys brain was complete mush from all the flying headbutts he did. The doctors said he had the brain of an eighty year old with dementia. There is no way he was of sound mind when he committed those murders. It was a tragedy for all involved really.
 

Pudie

The Fallen
Aug 19, 2018
247
I personally can still watch and enjoy his matches for what they are, while what he did obviously lingers in the back of your mind. At the end of the day he's still one of the best wrestlers we've ever seen and even his horrific act doesn't change that.

That said, short of just saying "He was the champ at this time" it's completely understandable for WWE to not acknowledge him. What's gained by doing it?
 

Threadkular

Member
Dec 29, 2017
2,415
I mean you can try and talk about him, but before you know it another wrestler will be dead and will be honoring him for the week.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
He really was one of the best smaller wrestlers out there. It's pretty hard to discuss some of the few things WCW got right without bringing up his matches.
he was the best technical wrestler bar none. its incredibly sad what happened but damn was he a perfect brawler, grappler and high flyer at the same time. the only thing he lacked was the mic skills that elevated the rock or eddie guerrero so much.
It's hard. Before the murders, this was for me one of the greatest moments in pro wrestling:

QpQcetc.png


He will never not be one of the greatest wrestlers ever, but it's tough for me to even think about watching his matches or promos.



You should watch New Japan btw.
this moment will never be recreated again. two "midtier (not skillwise because eddie and chris benoit were the best wrestlers at that time and shat at triple h or the likes)" wrestlers making it to the top despite so many odds against them.it was truly the best moment in wwe history. its so fucked up what happened to eddie and what benoit did.
 
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dennett316

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,981
Blackpool, UK
Benoit was my favourite wrestler...just awesome to watch. Key word is "was". Talking about how great a dude was when his last actions were killing his wife and son is more than a little disrespectful and, frankly, ghoulish.
I don't get this need for some to continually push to have this guy put back on a pedestal again after what he did. His last days cast a shadow over what would've been a hall of fame career, end of story. There's plenty of other great wrestlers to talk about without rushing to slobber the knob of a murderer.
Let. It. Go. Instead of blaming WWE or anyone else not comfortable with it, try blaming the one deserving of it....Chris Benoit. Yes, CTE, steroids, brain damage etc. He was a grown man, willingly signing all those contracts, willingly taking all those risks, willingly taking all those substances. People can argue he was also a victim until they're blue in the face, it doesn't diminish what he did to his wholly innocent victims who didn't make any of those choices.
 

Zatoichi

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,073
Ireland
People use the CTE thing as a crutch when it comes to him. Like there are plenty of wrestlers who have and will have CTE and other thing similar but none of them have done anything on the level Benoit did. at the end of the day he's one of the greatest wrestlers of all time yet he committed one of the greatest crimes in wrestling history.

Everyone is different and issues affect them differently.

His career damaged his health and helped bring his tragic end.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,301
New York
I'm saying that you don't place bibles by people and kill yourself afterwards if your brain doesn't work.

I don't understand this line of thinking. Obviously his brain "worked" to the extent to keep his heart beating, as in physically alive. As far as who is directly responsible? I mean I understand that's on Benoit. But we don't do his wife or child any justice by sweeping a factor like CTE and it's noted changes to behavior in a human being under the rug when discussing his actions. The WWE isn't responsible for their deaths, I get that. But at the same time we hold drinking establishments responsible for continuing to serve alcohol to people that are past the limit. Shouldn't the sports and sports entertainment industry be held to the same standard? What makes them unique or some special exception?
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,317
I don't understand this line of thinking. Obviously his brain "worked" to the extent to keep his heart beating, as in physically alive. As far as who is directly responsible? I mean I understand that's on Benoit. But we don't do his wife or child any justice by sweeping a factor like CTE and it's noted changes to behavior in a human being under the rug when discussing his actions. The WWE isn't responsible for their deaths, I get that. But at the same time we hold drinking establishments responsible for continuing to serve alcohol to people that are past the limit. Shouldn't the sports and sports entertainment industry be held to the same standard? What makes them unique or some special exception?
From what I'm reading, the CTE thing is a possible explanation/factor for the murders-suicide, but it's speculative, not confirmed. Others speculate substance abuse was a factor (both steroids and alcohol are mentioned separately here), or simply a history of domestic violence/abuse. I honestly dislike how people are basically downplaying Benoit's own responsibility here when the truth is, we don't actually know for an undeniable fact that the CTE was a factor.

Edit:
I'm saying that you don't place bibles by people and kill yourself afterwards if your brain doesn't work.

Unless you're trying to argue that he murdered his son in the heat of the moment?

I hold the WWE responsible for the treatment of its performers. I hold Chris Benoit responsible for murdering his wife and son. I don't hold the WWE responsible for murdering Chris Benoit's wife and son.
Agreed with this.
 
Oct 25, 2017
20,209
Kevin Spacey being a Hollywood superstar enabled his abuse.

Doesn't mean I can't enjoy him acting in Hollywood films.

Spacey being a star likely led him to having easier access to victims. He was most likely a creep and POS before becoming a star.

Benoit routinely slamming his head into mats and people, while taking roids, 100% contributed to his CTE.

There's a very distinct difference here.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,650
The guys brain was complete mush from all the flying headbutts he did. The doctors said he had the brain of an eighty year old with dementia. There is no way he was of sound mind when he committed those murders. It was a tragedy for all involved really.
God dammit.

The guy wasn't a vegetable. He was having matches, he was going through airports, traveling, living his life. It's a tragedy for his wife and son, it's not like a lightning bolt came down from the sky and struck his brain, he wrestled willingly, of his own accord. Fuckin tired of people framing this like he's a victim.
 

Sanjuro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,013
Massachusetts
Now you're just moving the goal posts. You literally just asked if the NFL talked about Junior Seau and it's clear they do.

Though, I highly doubt they talk about his suicide because of how damning it is for the league. It's disgraceful.

I'm not. I pulled up a video with John Cena talking about his legacy in a few seconds.

The NFL really hasn't spoken much about his end, only his accomplishments, which the WWE stills speaks of Benoit.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,326
God dammit.

The guy wasn't a vegetable. He was having matches, he was going through airports, traveling, living his life. It's a tragedy for his wife and son, it's not like a lightning bolt came down from the sky and struck his brain, he wrestled willingly, of his own accord. Fuckin tired of people framing this like he's a victim.

Exactly. It's interesting that there's no stories of Chris Benoit exploding and beating up people in the locker room, or injuring one of his opponents in a match by accident.

That seems like one of the things you might do if you were not able to use reason, especially having a job where you pretend to hurt people every day.