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Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,154
NYC
Although i disagree with most of what OP says I do agree about how it tells you nothing and a majority of systems, things you should know dont come about naturally - you need to have played another Souls game or be told.

I only started ewnjoying Bloodborne and Souls when i played them with access to a guide.

The amount of stuff i would never have figured out on my own as its so obscure is high

But someone figured it out, so it clearly isn't inscrutable. But if you can't figure it out, the games try to hearken to an era when asking people questions about games was how you learned the entirety of it. Except it's easier now than ever with the internet at your fingertips.

That said, most of it hasn't ever been too hard to figure out save for the lore. Experiment and take your time and you'll join the ranks of people that "just figured it out". I don't get the criticism that it's too obscure. It's one I hear not infrequently, but other people got it so why can't you?
 

starfox

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,341
Portugal
User Banned (1 Week): History of attacking posters
op is blaming the game for being such a weakass casul? become a gaming journalist or git gud.
 

Ænima

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,513
Portugal
pYpAfgh.jpg

Is this more what you wanted OP?
There should be a tower somewhere to show where the hidden items are located too.

tenor.gif
 
Last edited:
Dec 6, 2017
10,986
US
I see absolutely nothing confrontational about ekim's posts unless, "Why do people like this game?" is considered to be confrontational. In which case... lol.

And can I say that I find the drive-by "Nope, the game is actually a masterpiece!" posts to be just as substance free as anything he's posted?

Agree to disagree, it's an obnoxious OP tone-wise that's bound to make fans of the game react strongly. It even originally included the greatest hit 'lazy devs'.
 

Manbig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,305
The OP is kind of all over the place but I still don't get how people can justify the checkpoint placements in Soulsborne games as good game design and then turn around and say "just run past the encounters between you and the boss" when stuck on a hard boss. Is the combat and the enemy placement meant to be engaged with or not?


My apologies if someone already stated this, but the idea is that you engage with the enemies while you learn the area. Your reward for gaining that familiarity is that you can run by them because you already know where they are.
 

nycgamer4ever

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
861
I didn't like it either, but for different reasons. I thought the world and atmosphere were mindblowing. I don't know if 'lazy' is the right word, but it's laughably consistent with their previous souls games to where it's nearly a skin (again, similar conclusion but for different reasons). I think it's a bad game but certainly not in a way that disqualifies it from being worth playing. The dodge roll mechanic is a joke, one of the reasons I couldn't get into the previous games. I wouldn't even bother with criticism of it, as it's a good AA type of game that we need more of and I'm glad this exists, but the overwhelming popularity for what this is is fascinating.

I can never understanding people who are fascinated by other people liking something that they don't, as if their opinion of a game is facts. It's almost like we aren't a hive mind and have difference of opinions.

OT. OP is making no sense at all. I don't know how anyone can say the level design is bland in Bloodborne. And wtf with hitting the air for hosting?
 

correojon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,410
I haven´t played Bloodborne, though I liked a lot DS2 and DS1 is one of my GOATs and even though I don´t agree 100% with all OP says I do agree with the premise that all Souls games (not just Bloodborne) get a pass on stuff that´s just BAD design. Mainly, a complete lack of QoL features (not only when navigating menus) and having to read a wiki to understand game mechanics, sometimes even basic ones.
 

Deleted member 15125

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
417
Agree to disagree, it's an obnoxious OP tone-wise that's bound to make fans of the game react strongly. It even originally included the greatest hit 'lazy devs'.

He deleted the lazy devs criticism and even apologized. If we want to talk about greatest hits then let's talk about, "OP is stating his opinion like their facts!" or "OP just isn't hardcore enough" or "Gamers like OP are ruining AAA gaming."
 

DarthWalden

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,030
It's not bad game design, the game is purposely obtuse to encourage discovery and exploration.
I get why someone wouldn't appreciate it but after being spoon fed everything for years I found it incredibly enjoyable and satisfying.
 

Noema

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,904
Mexico CIty
You don't get to call one of the best games ever made shit after playing just a tiny percentage of it. It doesn't work like that

Also when it comes to teaching 'git gud' I think DSII's Fume Knight is the best of the lot.

It basically forces you to learn about stamina management and timed dodge rolls and recognising opportunities for healing.

There's better bosses in the series but I like that one a whole lot cause of the git gud-ification it involves, teaching you lessons that carry over into every other game in the series

I agree. He's not the hardest boss in the series but he does seem to be pretty good at teaching players how to 'git good' in ways no other boss at that point in the series had done. I played Bloodborne for the first time shortly after finishing SotFS and I generally found it on the easy side thanks to the lessons learned on that fight (72 tries!)
 

Wolfgunblood

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,748
The Land
I can never understanding people who are fascinated by other people liking something that they don't, as if their opinion of a game is facts. It's almost like we aren't a hive mind and have difference of opinions.

OT. OP is making no sense at all. I don't know how anyone can say the level design is bland in Bloodborne. And wtf with hitting the air for hosting?

You missed my point. I'm not fascinated simply by others liking something that I don't. That would be stupid. What I did say is that it's fascinating that a janky AA game with a high barrier of entry and difficulty- both intentional and due to it's flawed camera and mechanics- achieves a nearly unanimous status that places it among the most played and loved games of all time. I mean, look at the reaction to the OP in this thread. It's weird. I don't think there's ever been another game like that that I can think of, other than the other games in this series.
 

beau_beaumont

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,344
Wew, lad. That's the hottest of hot takes.

I don't see how anything in the OP could be considered bad design. The beginning is purposely vague to teach you to approach this game differently than other games that hold your hand.

The first level is actually a great tutorial to show you that you don't have to fight every enemy and that there are shortcuts off the main path that will make it easier to get to a boss. Also, you can get direction from user (and even developer) messages on the ground. The controls are explained in messages and in the manual.

As for the only difficulty coming from memorizing enemy patterns and figuring out your own move set, that's a complaint you could make about literally any other game that has combat. Did you think there were going to be challenging puzzles or something?

I also don't get your complaint about the menus. It's easy to equip items and it's easily explained in the manual. To each his own I guess.
 

Not you

Member
Oct 27, 2017
384
I'm not a fan either. I love roguelikes, and challenging games, but Bloodborne introduces challenge in an unsatisfying way. Dropping you into a game with absolutely no idea how to play isn't challenging, it's unfair, and bad design. It's needlessly frustrating. Forcing players to run through a level, by enemies to fight the boss, is utter nonsense, a chore and, needless. I do not enjoy having my time wasted. Memorizing boss attack patterns isn't good design either. It doesn't take skill, only repetition and trial and error or YouTube and, in that case, most boss battles become trivial.

It does a lot of great things, but tries too hard to be "hardcore".
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,127
London, UK
But someone figured it out, so it clearly isn't inscrutable. But if you can't figure it out, the games try to hearken to an era when asking people questions about games was how you learned the entirety of it. Except it's easier now than ever with the internet at your fingertips.

That said, most of it hasn't ever been too hard to figure out save for the lore. Experiment and take your time and you'll join the ranks of people that "just figured it out". I don't get the criticism that it's too obscure. It's one I hear not infrequently, but other people got it so why can't you?

its a personal criticism more than anything - i think its probably for the best there are games that do this for the people that like that.

And, as you say, i can and did look up stuff if i can't get it.

I have to say though im not sure i would ever had worked out that to upgrade i need to have got insight which i need to have seen the boss and then i can upgrade - that was super obscure haha
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
You don't get to call one of the best games ever made shit after playing just a tiny percentage of it. It doesn't work like that
Well, he kind of did, and he's entitled to that opinion. In fact, it's one shared by a few people I know, and I myself have struggled mightily to enjoy Bloodborne as its a game I haven't progress far along in either despite repeated restarts, and I'm someone who's beaten my fair share of Souls games. It hasn't grabbed me like it should, and I struggle with the way it presents its ideas. "Git gud" is laughable to me when I've cleared three other Souls games multiple times. It's not really the challenge that gets me; it's the structure.

Granted, I'm STILL giving it another try soon, but OP's opinion is their own and just as valid. Your experience was great; theirs was not. It happens.
 

Noema

Member
Jan 17, 2018
4,904
Mexico CIty
It's not bad game design, the game is purposely obtuse to encourage discovery and exploration.
I get why someone wouldn't appreciate it but after being spoon fed everything for years I found it incredibly enjoyable and satisfying.

Yes! It's interesting to me that a people call the Souls games "disrespectful" because of the high number of deaths the player must endure and the general obscurity of the game slowly unraveling itself, instead of presenting the player with a laundry list of objectives and a map filled with quest markers.

I personally find the latter quite exhausting and makes me feel like I'm just going through the motions, whereas the Souls games actually feel like they respect me as a player who can get by without a map, or without quest markers. The games make you feel unwelcome by design because the designers understand that the reward of conquering true perceived adversity is very high, as opposed to just following a breadcrumb trail of objectives while the game goes out of its way to please and cheer on the player at every turn.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,127
London, UK
There are a lot of tutorial messages in Hunter's Dream that explain a lot of the basics. And it's been a while since I played, but I think there's a button you can press while on the stats screen that lets you highlight each stat, with a tool tip explaining what they mean. Those should cover most of the systems. A lot of stuff like using the Music Box in the Father G fight seems obscure, but the item description for it strongly hints at it, and I think the devs wanted you to freely experiment in the game. A big difference with the Soulsborne series and most modern AAA games is that the game explicitly tells you how to play, through a forced tutorial, or by straight up throwing a message on the screen to do something. Maybe too many people got complacent by playing the latter.

Some of the hints are there and looking at a guide made me enjoy the game - its a personal criticism rather than a game one.

mind you if i hadn't looked up that to upgrade you need insight which you get from seeing the first boss i might have given up. that first section is punishing for a new player :)
 
Oct 30, 2017
9,200
It's totally ok if some games didn't click with you... but to make falls statements and accusations, no!

Bloodborne is a total inspiration when it comes to a game design... the game is very solid and already claimed a spot in gaming history as one of the best.
 

base_two

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,811
That's what happens when most AAA games almost plays by itself, we get posts like this.

Can we pay attention to the valid criticism though? Bloodborne is a chore to play in my opinion. Absolutely punishing difficulty, little guidance on the main mechanics of the game, limited checkpoints that waste precious time, and generally aimless gameplay.

The "OP isn't hardcore enough" post need to be moddable too. I get it, ResetERA likes Bloodborne, but dissenting opinions about the game are treated with such hostility, there is never a serious discussion about the perceived flaws of the game.
 

Trantorian

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
137
You know, im a huge Souls fan, but i think i feel the same about Monster Hunter as the OP does for Bloodborne haha
 

Slime Stack

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,189
Puerto Rico
OP you sound like one of those people that really value narrative/story over gameplay. If that's the case Bloodborne is probably not for you.
 
Oct 28, 2017
16,773
I generally don't like action RPG's but I really got in to Bloodborne. It's very good. I have my issues with it though. I do share the sentiment that the game does a poor job of explaining its mechanics. I would have greatly appreciated an optional tutorial area that goes in to depth explaining its various mechanics in practical situations. I mean, honestly, attempting to figure out how the hell the parry was supposed to work all on my own wasn't fun.
 

Liquor

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,715
Did OP criticize the game for not telling you what to do in the beginning of the game? This is lazy of you, actually. Because they actually do. You just didn't pay attention to anything it appears.
 

Caja 117

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,467
The "OP isn't hardcore enough" post need to be moddable too. I get it, ResetERA likes Bloodborne, but dissenting opinions about the game are treated with such hostility, there is never a serious discussion about the perceived flaws of the game.

I understand having to accept different opinions on games people like, but Im not sure what kind of replies you expect when the OP thread tittle can be easiley perceived as mocking those that love the game, the Thread tittle set the tone for the hostility.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,927
I'm not a fan either. I love roguelikes, and challenging games, but Bloodborne introduces challenge in an unsatisfying way. Dropping you into a game with absolutely no idea how to play isn't challenging, it's unfair, and bad design. It's needlessly frustrating. Forcing players to run through a level, by enemies to fight the boss, is utter nonsense, a chore and, needless. I do not enjoy having my time wasted. Memorizing boss attack patterns isn't good design either. It doesn't take skill, only repetition and trial and error or YouTube and, in that case, most boss battles become trivial.

It does a lot of great things, but tries too hard to be "hardcore".

What is a boss design supposed to be other than memorizing movement and attack patterns? That's like the fundamentals of any confrontation. You observe, learn and react. There's things you can do to spice this up but at the end of the day it's you memorizing patterns.
 
Oct 28, 2017
423
I feel the OP on this one. I cannot fathom the appeal of these games. It truly baffles me how popular this genre has gotten.
 

Furisco

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,084
Can we pay attention to the valid criticism though? Bloodborne is a chore to play in my opinion. Absolutely punishing difficulty, little guidance on the main mechanics of the game, limited checkpoints that waste precious time, and generally aimless gameplay.

The "OP isn't hardcore enough" post need to be moddable too. I get it, ResetERA likes Bloodborne, but dissenting opinions about the game are treated with such hostility, there is never a serious discussion about the perceived flaws of the game.
Those aren't flaws, they're designed that way for a reason. It's a matter of you liking it or not and not about it's quality because there's no doubt that the quality is high.

It's funny to see people complaining about games like Bloodborne in an era where most games are the complete opposite of it. Shallow "depth", harder difficulties that are just bigger numbers, waypoints for everything and a checkpoint every single minute.

There's plenty of options in the market and not every game should be for you.

This reminds me of when Cuphead came out and since it was popular it spawned articles asking: Are games way too hard ?
393085130219978752.png
 

gaugebozo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,826
The point of these types of games is largely finding out about the world and how it works. Some other games throw tutorial after tutorial and tons of maps, notifications, etc. at you. It's not bad design, it's a different philosophy of design. You don't have to like it, but there's no question they were largely successful at what they set out to achieve. Do you think other people who don't like your favorite music are wrong?
 

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
3,001
User banned (2 days) for insulting and antagonizing another member
The scrambled thoughts you just vomited into that post are wrong and pointless. I won't call it an opinion because that implies some sort of intelligence was used in the making of that nonsense. My dog could create a more well thought out thread.
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,971
OP, I don't even know where to begin...

Level design is bland? Disagree. Bloodborne has some of the best level design in a video game ever. No offense, but I have to assume you used the wrong phrase with this criticism. Many of the levels loop back around in natural ways, but funnels you intuitively towards the critical path nicely. You unlock short cuts that you previously saw, giving you a sense of accomplishment through exploration; and sometimes these short cuts are well hidden and connect entire areas you didn't realize could or would connect. There is a sense of cohesiveness only matched by Dark Souls 1. Not to mention multiple ways to progress through levels, hidden early access points to areas/bosses if you explore, etc. It is superb and I would say both objectively and subjectively stands as a fantastic example to level design in the industry.

The world is bland. Disagree. The color palette is mostly brown, but aside from that I don't know how you could say it's bland. The level design, as previously talked about, make exploring interesting and rewarding. The gothic architecture present in a lot of the game is impeccably detailed and gives this Victorian/Lovecraftian nightmare of a game tremendous atmosphere. As does he mostly diegetic soundscape. And the enemy design is just fantastic. There are grotesque things that make your skin crawl, and some surprising moments that will make you jump the first time you play. You could make the argument that there isn't enough variety in the world design, but the argument that what is there is bland is a poor one.

The game is sluggish and trial and error. Disagree. Rarely, especially if we don't include Chalice Dungeons, are you going to encounter something unfair. In the first level a guy pops up from around the corner, and maybe you got hit or even died, but it serves as a lesson to pay attention to your surroundings. If you are haphazardly running through fun the game not paying attention you are going to miss the audio and visual clues to ambushes. You are going to miss the countless enemies hanging off the edge or above you that you can exploit if you pay attention. You are going to miss the obvious trap. If you allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security that's a you problem. But, most of us still fall prey to it and die. But in a game like this, death is inevitable and it's not about "getting gud" it's about the mentality you have. You need patience. Judging by your post you simply don't have the patience for a game like this - and that has nothing to do with skill or lack thereof, but you don't seem to have the right attitude.

And the game is the exact opposite of sluggish. It's responsive, accurate and fast paced. The rally system feeds perfectly into the design doctrine of the game both in terms of wanting the player to be aggressive while also punishing players who aren't patient. It's a delicate balance, and while it's not always perfect (and in some cases not well balanced), generally it's very well done.

And yeah, your character is a blank slate. And yeah the story is somewhat abstract and minimally told. I understand if that type of storytelling isn't for somebody - honestly I'd prefer more straightforward storytelling in FromSoftware games, maybe not entirely but at least the main story - but if you actually try to understand what's going on at least on a superficial level it's oretty disturbing and pretty interesting. It's cosmic horror done very well, and while I personally would prefer more traditional storytelling this specific brand of horror is actually complimented by the way the game's narrative unfolds and how obfuscated and confusing it is.

I could go further, but what's the point?
 
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Certinfy

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
3,476
I don't think I could agree more with the OP. I put at least 10 hours into the game trying to like it several times and I was always left off finding it horrible.
 

MetalBoi

Banned
Dec 21, 2017
3,176
I admit I'm not the biggest fan of the game, but the OP is just spouting personal preferences, not actual bad game design. Seems like the tc is just disappointed that the game isn't like the usual batch of Sony exclusives that focus on cinematics and flash over substance.
 

BraXzy

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,431
Your problem is you wanted a story and instead got a gameplay rich experience in a well crafted world that leaves the narrative elements more of a subtlety. Not all games are for everyone.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Everything you do in life is based on trial and error. These games embracing that is showing the rest of the industry that it might, in fact, be the GREATEST type of game design as long as it's done well and rewards the player much like real life rewards you for taking those risks and sticking with it. Bloodborne is the best game in it's genre (whatever that genre is) specifically because it has almost NO comfort zone to lean back on. The game forces you into embracing risk-taking as an important part of anything you do.

If you want an escape from the stress of life, this game is not for you.