You're really using anime as an argument here? Anime is silly and over the top and dumb.
The star of the show is supposed to stand out, though.
The star of the show is supposed to stand out, though.
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What's with series's making their protagonist so special?
- Thread starter Dale Copper
- Start date
Don't remember saying anything about strength. Or skill for that matter.
If I remember correctly the OP is referring to how special the protag is, right?
Does not a one-in-a-million chance of gaining something seem special to you?
Not when pretty much every major character and antagonist he encounters also has it. It's not uniquely his in the world. Most of the strong antagonists have it as well, and it doesn't help at all in fights except to allow him to knock out fodder
There's a very very very fine line between boring, and power creep becoming so excessive that the characters literally become gods by the end. Shonen's issue is that typically power creep is seen as character development.
This annoyed me about Bleach. At first it was just about some kid who became an unusually strong Shinigami.
Then as time went on, it was gradually revealed that he was only that strong because his father was a very powerful and high-ranking shinigami nobleman, his mother was a talented member of an almost-extinct race, he had the soul of a mad scientist's genetically modified monster inside him, as well as the blood of an ancient godly king. On top of that, all of the events in his life were influenced by one person or another in order to nurture his abilities.
It kind of cheapened the whole thing.
Then as time went on, it was gradually revealed that he was only that strong because his father was a very powerful and high-ranking shinigami nobleman, his mother was a talented member of an almost-extinct race, he had the soul of a mad scientist's genetically modified monster inside him, as well as the blood of an ancient godly king. On top of that, all of the events in his life were influenced by one person or another in order to nurture his abilities.
It kind of cheapened the whole thing.
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read the Webtoon Lookism https://www.webtoons.com/en/drama/lookism/list?title_no=1049&page=1
thank me later
thank me later
Spoilers for The Return:
I agree that these characters are more special than we initially presumed, but I interpret the events of Season 3's finale as a re-examination of Coop's special-ness. He (and the audience) maybe believes in his own mythic status a bit too much.
Lynch'll never say anything about that show, but Mark Frost said:
They're definitely not the "normal" people we thought they were at the start of the show but I felt like Part 18 turned that idea of a chosen hero on its head a bit.
Lynch'll never say anything about that show, but Mark Frost said:
They're definitely not the "normal" people we thought they were at the start of the show but I felt like Part 18 turned that idea of a chosen hero on its head a bit.
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Yeah I don't really like it either. In those shows you know that nothing bad can really happen to the protagonist or if it does they'll recover from it.
I like knowing that the main character can actually lose.
Edit :Yeah naruto is pretty bad at that. Even when something would kill every other character he'd survive through some 9-tails main character plot armor. But that's most Shonen anime.
I like knowing that the main character can actually lose.
Edit :Yeah naruto is pretty bad at that. Even when something would kill every other character he'd survive through some 9-tails main character plot armor. But that's most Shonen anime.
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There are a few Anime/Light novels with "normal" people.
For example, Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash.
It's the story of a group of adventurers transported into a fantasy world. But unlike the majority of (trash) isekai stories, they don't have overpowered secret stats or skills. They're the bottom of the barrel.
All of them (they can't even kill a single goblin 6 vs 1 at the beginning).
It's a "grounded" fantasy story about weaklings and their day to day hardships.
They struggle to buy food, pay rent, maintain weapons, armor etc.
It's great because, while you can see them getting slightly better, they'll never unlock a secret technique or something ridiculous like that.
The power levels stay coherent (so far), and you know that Haruhiro and friends will never be able to compete with others volunteer soldiers in terms of power or knowledge.
Great anime (available on Netflix, at least in EU) and even better light novel that is getting translated.
For example, Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash.
It's the story of a group of adventurers transported into a fantasy world. But unlike the majority of (trash) isekai stories, they don't have overpowered secret stats or skills. They're the bottom of the barrel.
All of them (they can't even kill a single goblin 6 vs 1 at the beginning).
It's a "grounded" fantasy story about weaklings and their day to day hardships.
They struggle to buy food, pay rent, maintain weapons, armor etc.
It's great because, while you can see them getting slightly better, they'll never unlock a secret technique or something ridiculous like that.
The power levels stay coherent (so far), and you know that Haruhiro and friends will never be able to compete with others volunteer soldiers in terms of power or knowledge.
Great anime (available on Netflix, at least in EU) and even better light novel that is getting translated.
This doesn't really matter when literally everyone else in his class was working just as hard. Hell, rock lee was probably working harder. The only thing that put naruto over them was his genetics and his natural born talent for chakra manipulation. And no one worked harder than Guy in history and he still jobbed at the end.
Although I'm still watching the show (caught up with the latest episode), my excitement for the story dropped when they revealed human-controlled titans and that Eren gets to be one of them. I really wanted to see how the humans were going to fight back against their situation. A bland main character would have been fine if the story had been more about humanity than a specific person.
I may have been expecting too much from an anime like this though lol.
It's definitely prevalent in anime, but is also pretty common in fantasy and still shows up in other works, too.
Like, Harry Potter has some of this for instance.
I'm not sure why some people are responding that only overpowered, chosen-one characters are interesting.
Especially, when people who don't read Superman stories always think he's boring for those exact reasons.
I'd think a character's personality and actions would make the story interesting or not.
Sure it matters. All those characters were strong because of their hard work. Just because others worked hard and got better too doesn't erase the efforts of the others. You say Guy jobbed like he didn't go toe to toe with one of the most powerful Shinobi in the world. Guy who was a fairly minor character and ended up fighting Madara at the end of the series.
One of the many things that make Harry Potter so great is the fact that despite magic being the central theme, Harry is actually an average wizard and when he shines it's because of personality traits like making the right choices under pressure or having the courage to do what needs to be done even when the odds are overwhelming. He also relies on his friends whenever possible. It's so much more interesting than becoming an OP wizard.
Even though he's considered the chosen one, the event that lead to that was actually a stupid mistake by the villain that ended up making him an orphan. He wasn't born special, he was dragged into a mess and got out of it because his heart was always in the right place and he had friends he could always count on.
Even though he's considered the chosen one, the event that lead to that was actually a stupid mistake by the villain that ended up making him an orphan. He wasn't born special, he was dragged into a mess and got out of it because his heart was always in the right place and he had friends he could always count on.
There's a fine line between "boring" and "unimportant". A protagonist should never be boring (well, they could be boring as a character flaw), but we definitely need more stories about unimportant characters who just exist in a world and aren't special. More Papers Please, more Come & See, more Blade Runner, stories that are just one among countless others rather than feeling like the entire world revolves around them
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Shonen Jump series are judged by readers every week, and pitted against one another. The lowest performing series get canceled. Series usually perform the best during pivotal moments, like character powerups, so authors usually bring out a new powerup if they need a ranking spike.
Dune has an actually good instance of this trope, in part because it plays into the greater themes and systems of the world it creates, and also because Herbert thoroughly turns it on its head and pulls it apart, as much as he participates in it.
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Wasn't that the point of Lost? That it wasn't chance that they ended up in the island?
You didn't, but they're not mutually exclusive to what Dale has an issue with. A protagonist with special heritage or powers is usually connected to their overall strength and skill.
For me, Harry Potter is a great example of a hero who is special in a unique way without being over-the-top. He is special because he is the boy he lived, and him living is thanks to his mom. Hermoine is even regularly regarded as a better wizard than Harry. Someone goes so far as to say she is one of the brightest minds to ever go to Hogwarts. This is a characterist usually given to the hero, but JK spreads it out.
Supernatural. It went down the shitter IMO. Every other weekend was a new apocalypse, Dean and Sam gaining/losing powers, transforming and reverting, ugh. UGH.
Early Edition on the other hand, has average joe Gary Hobson average joeing throughout the series. Which was good IMO.
Early Edition on the other hand, has average joe Gary Hobson average joeing throughout the series. Which was good IMO.
"How do I know I can trust you, Sam?!" Rinse and repeat. You now have a Supernatural episode.
It didn't make him interesting at all. It was frustrating to read. He was an idiot that sucked at everything. That's not the kind of character I give two shits about.]
He's not smart, he's not powerful outside of the kyuubi, he's not likable. He has very little going for him.
It's only in Shippuden that he becomes a character worth reading about, and they went WAY in the other direction by making him too powerful.
The only part of Naruto that bothers me is the reveal that both he and Sasuke were essentially reincarnations of super powered legendary siblings. Their final powers ups had nothing to do with hard working.
I would like to argue that the Child of Prophecy was bullshit and Obito played a much greater part in actually fulfilling it than Naruto.
I actually like Ichigo's origin because he is essentially an anomaly within the story, a person who grew incredible strong in an incredible short time. The reveal that he was a hybrid of 4 races, instead of the usual 2 explains why he was able to grow strong so quickly compared to other characters that are centuries older than him. If he wasn't special, it would be really hard to justify him getting stronger than people that already lived ten times his lifetime.
Also, his existence was an unplanned accident that Aizen later incorporated in his plans. For Yhwach, Ichigo was not part of his plan and more like "This guy and other four have potential to cause trouble for my plans". Bleach has a shit ton of problems, but Ichigo's original was something I actually liked.
I would like to argue that the Child of Prophecy was bullshit and Obito played a much greater part in actually fulfilling it than Naruto.
Actually, Ichigo is just 4 races: Human and Shinigami (From his dad, being a Shinigami in a human Gigai), Quincy (from his mother) and Hollow (passed from his infected mother into him during gestation). Vizard and Fullbring are just by products of already being a human and hollow and are not races by themselves.
I actually like Ichigo's origin because he is essentially an anomaly within the story, a person who grew incredible strong in an incredible short time. The reveal that he was a hybrid of 4 races, instead of the usual 2 explains why he was able to grow strong so quickly compared to other characters that are centuries older than him. If he wasn't special, it would be really hard to justify him getting stronger than people that already lived ten times his lifetime.
Also, his existence was an unplanned accident that Aizen later incorporated in his plans. For Yhwach, Ichigo was not part of his plan and more like "This guy and other four have potential to cause trouble for my plans". Bleach has a shit ton of problems, but Ichigo's original was something I actually liked.
I'll admit his tactics were annoying, but I guess we'll have to disagree. He fights with struggles. Even if they usually end in Kyuubi saving him, there's tension (for me) before then. Not so with a character like Sasuke. I've never felt tension with him, except with Itachi when they met early on. I at least like to be led to believe they'd lose.
I don't think Naruto is the best character ever or anything. It's just the case where the untalented character is more interesting to me than the talented character.
And he wasn't even untalented. Kyuubi was just fucking him up.
He was an idiot who sucked but also managed to succeed despite being his own worst enemy, this was hella interesting because he more often than not think of an unorthodox way to win a situation. Which made the part where he actually got better at strategy satisfying, there was a time back in the day when this was hype because up to this point this dude's main strat was literally just *summon clones and hope the enemy isn't good at fighting multiple combatants, (they always were):
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In many larger-than-life stories, the story tends to pursue the finale of a grand scale conflict, where it's not about a small story of a single individual, but the collective will of people against a great power or great evil. Especially when it's blended with coming-of-age stories, so in those cases, we see the story from the perspective of youths who start off weak - but eventually gain the power to stand toe-to-toe against the most powerful beings in the universe of that story.
In a more grounded Naruto story in an alternate universe, the peak of Naruto's power and ambition would probably be akin to what the Sand vs Leaf Village war was, where an adult Naruto - possessing the ability of a regular Kage would be a capable warrior that stands as the ace of the village in a small-scale war, and he would achieve that over the years of his personal growth. But in the one that we see, the continued escalation, the intertwining aspects of how Jinchuriki are WMDs, and the continued universe power-creep and one-upping in what ninjutsu is capable of in the Naruto universe means that by the end-game, Naruto and co. are infinitely more powerful than the portrayal of Kakashi and Zabuza in the earlier volumes, and they were supposed to be top-class ninjas.
In a more grounded Naruto story in an alternate universe, the peak of Naruto's power and ambition would probably be akin to what the Sand vs Leaf Village war was, where an adult Naruto - possessing the ability of a regular Kage would be a capable warrior that stands as the ace of the village in a small-scale war, and he would achieve that over the years of his personal growth. But in the one that we see, the continued escalation, the intertwining aspects of how Jinchuriki are WMDs, and the continued universe power-creep and one-upping in what ninjutsu is capable of in the Naruto universe means that by the end-game, Naruto and co. are infinitely more powerful than the portrayal of Kakashi and Zabuza in the earlier volumes, and they were supposed to be top-class ninjas.
I'd argue this wasn't the case. People who ended up on the island were chosen to be there, yes. But they were chosen because they weren't special. Jacob was looking for people to replace him and he specified he chose the "candidates" based on how much they didn't have going on in their lives; he wasn't plucking anyone away from a happy life.
When Kate asked him why her name was crossed off the cave wall, and she was no longer a candidate, he said it's because she became Aaron's adoptive mother and thus had something and someone to live for, but that it was "just a name on a wall" and that she could take the job as his replacement if she wanted it.
When the Man in Black confronts Jack about the folly of believing in destiny, Jack tells him that he alone chose to be Jacob's replacement. In the end, there was no Chosen One or savior.
(I just rewatched Lost recently and wanted to discuss it lol.)
That story would have been so much more trash if it had been Deku without powers. For him to continue being effective, you know who he would have to become? Batman: A guy with zero powers who's somehow better than all the people with powers. That shit would've been more annoying than what we got.
In any case Dale Copper, you're complaining about a feature not a bug. I watch shonen anime to see someone become absurdly strong over the course of the series. If I didn't want that I'd watch another type of anime. Someone said Grimgar, that show was a great change of pace--those guys legit spent the first three or four episodes trying to kill some trash mobs.
Aahahahahahaha, this is where you're wrong. Do I need to post Reetaes comprehensive review of LOST?
First, Jacob was a massive asshole and an incompetent one at that. He absolutely did choose all of these people and not because "they didn't have much going on in their lives." First, the only reason they allegedly "didn't have much going on" is because Jacob pushed and designed their lives to be that way. Let's not forget he'd been watching these individuals THEIR ENTIRE LIVES and subtly pushing them towards certain events. He's the one that encourages a young boy Sawyer to finish writing his letter to the real Sawyer. He meets up with a young girl Kate as she plays and steals with her friend Tommy (or whatever his name was). He's the one that gets Nadia killed by distracting Sayid as they cross the street. Jacob made their lives miserable. But further more, who the hell is he to decide whether or not "they had anything going on on their lives?" These people weren't suicidal, many were going through some rough patches, but how exactly was their life less meaningful than any other person's life? Jack was a successful surgeon who stuck to his moral and principles even in the face of his father. Sure, he was sad his dad died but he wasn't fucking "going nowhere" with his life.
However, even worse, is that fucking other 80+ or so people that died in the fucking plane crash! Remember Jacob brought EVERYONE to the island, including the plane. That means he intentionally killed all the passengers of Oceanic Flight 815, not just those that died in the initial crash, but the regular non-main cast member survivors. Why did he need to bring two kids to the island whose parents weren't even on the flight? What purpose did they serve? Did they not have a meaningful life to get back to?!?!?!?!?!??!
But back to my main point, the end of LOST goes absolutely, 100% into Chosen One territory, Jack even accepts it as such. Jacob specifically says he chose all of them for dubious reasons and then says one of them has to accept his role, Jack accepts it and states that it's basically his destiny; that John Locke, a man whose very guts he hated and thought was a pathetic, loony fool, was right. And, that destiny and fate was real and his was to become the Protector of the Island.
It's such supreme bullshit. Jack was the literal Chosen One to save the island and the whole entire world.
EDIT:
I just have to post the end part of Reetae's LOST breakdown, honestly if you haven't watched the whole thing, then you should, starting with Part 1. But, here's the last part focusing specifically on Jacob's plan:
I honestly don't know how you reconcile these two statements.
You literally just said "Here's a story about an annoying, stupid dipshit who is his worst enemy and succeeds despite all of his shitty annoying faults, and that's awesome!"
On paper it sounds like the worst fucking story ever told, and in practice, it turns out it's really not far from that.
Naruto is so profoundly and irrevocably unlikable that I thought I was on crazy pills when I found out how popular it was in the West.
To me, if a character is the LEAST naturally capable in the group, but he's smart, and he uses that intelligence to win against naturally talented opponents, that's a compelling character.
If a character is a clinically stupid dipshit where the story constantly tells me "watch out! He's going to be something great one day!" without actually showing much of that potential in the storytelling, I'm going to put down the story.
This is what makes Shikamaru an incredibly interesting character, and Naruto a boring, annoying character.
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Well, you're looking at it holistically. I feel like throughout the Naruto experience, even though it falters as it continued further and further, there are many high points throughout the story - and not just because of Naruto. Characters like Neji, Lee, Gaara, Shikamaru - throughout their introductions add spice to the story. And even within Naruto's personal arc, there are high points that I think are pretty strong. It's not as if Naruto reached the peak of its popularity from where it ended up with. Naruto was very quickly popular from the early days, and enduring popularity kept it going.
This imo, is even more true in the latter half of the story because that is the point where the story imo - had very poor rationale for half of Naruto's selfishness and continued to slowly break the foundation of his youth ( by making him super special), but at that point, the story had become about an ensemble story and while Naruto was the lead, his presence was complementary to many other characters in the story - and it's not just solely about him and Sasuke.
I prefer the hell out of a very flawed character failing often and succeeding in an unorthodox manner. Followed by him growing and learning. Yes he's annoying, but he's a kid.
It's because stories are often sustained by direct conflict (usually between two characters), which is often most attractive and interesting when both the protagonist and the antagonist are very powerful in some way. Easiest way to convey that to the audience is through superpowers that manifest physically.
The simple answer is that it's easy. Part of creating a narrative, especially a long-running one like the shonen manga you refer to in the OP, is coming up with semi-reasonable narrative excuses for why everything interesting that happens in the world is always centered around the protagonist. A good writer can do this through sheer craft; if you're less confident (or more lazy) the easy way to do it is by just making the protagonist a super-special one-of-a-kind individual and thus a natural fulcrum for everything important that happens.
This is also why these shonen shows tend to have a natural tension between good, interesting side characters that have been created and the need for the overriding narrative to constantly be about the protagonist; you'd rather Naruto just became about Kakashi or one of the other Ninja Teams--I mean we all would, really--but because of the author's choice to take that low road it always has to come back to Naruto and Sasuke, as he's effectively written himself into a corner. It's a double-edged sword in that sense and probably worth avoiding if you're confident in your ability to do so.
This is also why these shonen shows tend to have a natural tension between good, interesting side characters that have been created and the need for the overriding narrative to constantly be about the protagonist; you'd rather Naruto just became about Kakashi or one of the other Ninja Teams--I mean we all would, really--but because of the author's choice to take that low road it always has to come back to Naruto and Sasuke, as he's effectively written himself into a corner. It's a double-edged sword in that sense and probably worth avoiding if you're confident in your ability to do so.
I get what you're coming from, but I just can't get behind stupid characters. I can't stand stupid protagonists.
The one quality a protagonist NEEDS is intelligence.