Change will come, but probably not as fast as you think. Or for the reasons why you think. There's like a new SF killer every year and yet SF games are always in the mix. There's not any evidence to suggest that's going to end anytime soon.
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"The Fighting Game Scene no longer needs Street Fighter to thrive"
- Thread starter Doctrine Dark
- Start date
Change will come, but probably not as fast as you think. Or for the reasons why you think. There's like a new SF killer every year and yet SF games are always in the mix. There's not any evidence to suggest that's going to end anytime soon.
don't forget about consoles and single player games! Doooooooooooooom
Probably because there aren't thousands of people waiting to play 3s and ST.
Two entries in the same series in the finals is a waste. Just have Ultimate next year and leave it at that. Melee is a fine game its just time to move on.
I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment, but kicking a significant segment of your revenue base to the curb doesn't sound like a smart way to run a business.
I'm going to echo what other people in this thread have said, that it was because of DBZF running over schedule, was the reason for the lower numbers for the SFV top 8.
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I don't know if this is really on topic. But i feel that all fighting games should drop the double elimination style tournament. And use the single elimination method.
If you get knocked out, then that should be it. None of this losers bracket silliness.
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I don't know if this is really on topic. But i feel that all fighting games should drop the double elimination style tournament. And use the single elimination method.
If you get knocked out, then that should be it. None of this losers bracket silliness.
Single elmin would be horrible. Quality of the finals would go down drastically, not to mention some of the best moments at tournies are people running it back from losers or when they're already down some games.
This only works if you have Japanese commentators yelling at the very top of their lungs.
Nah, it'll be played forever. Sorry your favorite game couldn't last as long.
15 year old "Niche game" still had 1351 entrants this year tho.
It's sort of a chicken and egg situation though, where an audience is there for Melee because top players don't move on and people want to watch the top players. It's difficult to say which has more influence, tbh. The big difference is generally speaking SF players agree to move on and make the most of it even when the replacement game isn't ideal, as was the case with launch SF5 etc. I think if a good contingent of the SF pros refused to move away from SF5 when 6 lands though you'd see a far increased interest in seeing SF5 tournaments continue and stronger continued viewership, etc.
I don't know if they all agree but rather Capcom bullies tournament organizers and sponsors into agreeing, because money. SF 5 was not exactly esports ready its first Evo.
"Bullies." Throwing in pot bonuses that gets TO's more sign ups is bullying.
Agreed. Evo has always been better than SBO, single elim is disgursting
You mean Kaz's Yun destroying Daigo's E.Ryu?
Are we forgetting Cammy who's now has the spotlight?
Or the throw loops and AA jabs.
Or how a character is broken every single year.
See. I don't feel that the quality would go down at all.
In the finals you have (rarely, but still happens) a situation because of a bracket reset, the final tally of matches won to be a draw once they've all bee added up. If you see what i mean.
I'd rather the final be a best (or first) to 10 situation.
I understand that i'm in a very small minority for both. just my 2 pence.
LMAO.
Why ?
I think bullying is a ludicrously strong/hyperbolic term, tbh. Capcom has the pro tour though, and if you want to be part of that it only supports the current game. That makes sense. Capcom is not against supporting more than one game on the tour though - they ran SFxT on it alongside SF4 long after it was clear that game was fucking finished - but they have a logic about only one game of a given 'type', which I think is absolutely fair enough. They're a business and I don't know who can begrudge them promoting their 'current' game, but it's also fair to say that outside of prize pots they are generally quite supportive of their older game's side tournaments and seem very proud of each game's tournament legacy.
Plus... if throwing around pot bonuses that drive up entrance fees and thus get more players to sign up (in turn earning TOs more and legitimizing events to larger host locations), then, fuck, I dunno what they should do. I certainly wouldn't want them taking a leaf from Nintendo's playbook.
Not to knock Nintendo, mind... like, the above considered, Smash fans/pros should be careful what mess they sling about this sort of thing, as I get the strong impression that NOA/NOE are really into the idea of actually trying to make a run of the esports thing with Ultimate, and that might actually be the nail in the coffin that fully pushes Melee out of things like Evo Sunday Finals forever. Here in Europe, at least, NOE has been spending some decent bank on esports stuff around Splatoon and Smash - they're only dipping their toes in, but it plainly could lead to bigger and better things.
Isn't this just fighting games in general? Balance is an imperfect thing by nature, and imo one of the things that's better about the modern, rolling update style of fighting game is that at least the meta charges semi regularly and forces players to re-learn, grow and adapt.
Esports is so bad it suddenly makes people forget the grassroots people came from. It's now Capcom killing games and not people just...moving on, like SF4 isn't still readily available to play, the same way every other fighter with a sequel has been available since time out of mind.
It's more about the pools. Single elmins means people can get knocked out due to bad matchups or some stupid gimmick. This'll affect who gets into top 8. Double elim is a better indiction of who the better players are due to a larger sample size of games.
Weird take. Tekken has always been hype AF, this year and the one before has more people taking notice. Street Fighter is the grandfather of the group and happily carrying the rest on its back for the good of fighting games.
Also wonder if the writer of the article caught KoF XIII's first year at Evo, that shit was bananas.
Also wonder if the writer of the article caught KoF XIII's first year at Evo, that shit was bananas.
Unless i'm misunderstanding you (which i apologise if i am) I'd still have pools and groups. It's just when we get to the shoot-out part, it would go to single elim.
I'd also increase the number of matches slightly to try to weed out fluke wins.
It's wild. Melee players literally be carrying 20-year-old televisions to keep their game alive, but USF4 fans is mad their game comes after SFV alphabetically on the PlayStation store or something.
That's what I was trying to get at and now I have context so thanks for that. Makes sense why the Melee audience doesn't move on if thats truly the case. Its just freaking weird to me that top players wouldn't want to evolve and need to be catered to while other communities don't seem to have a problem with learning the latest and greatest. Don't even get me started on all of the restrictions for "top level" play like disabling items and banning certain stages and characters. It's just fucking weird to me. Great for people that enjoy that but to me it's just fucking weird.
I'm not saying don't have it at EVO just don't waste a primetime slot on something that old that needs 20 year old CRTs and hardware repairs to sustain itself. If Melee isn't on the main stage next year the numbers for Ultimate would probably meet or exceed the Melee numbers.
What do you mean shoot out? Also double elim is good for players who get seeded badly. First round of pools and you get placed against Daigo, but some chump better than you gets an easy ride all the way outta pools? Double elim helps offsets this.
Single elim would count in pools also, which means if you get an awful matchup in your first game, then that's it.
That doesn't make cammy broken. SF2 Akuma is broken. Cammy is top tier.
Agreed. I get that melee has a huge FGC scene, but... fuck em. Ultimate is the new shit, if you want to play Smash on the MAIN stage, you're playing that.
Have melee on a Side Tourney, sure. But 2 of the main stage slots shouldn't go to a fucking Smash game.
I would also like to point out that despite how OP Cammy is, there were ZERO Cammys in SFV Finals.
............ WUT ?
Ummm. The best way to describe what's in my diseased brain would, something like the world cup. So you'd have groups where people would play each other a couple of times. Then after that semis, quarters and grand would be single elim.
I'm explaining this really badly, so again i apologise. It's also the reason why i've kept my gob shut about this for a long time.
The other sports where they have single elim style tournaments that could be imitated.
EDIT: Also to your point ferrio about being in a group of death. Ummm, seeding higher ranked players evenly through groups might offset that a bit (or a similar method)
And not to sound too callus. Thems the breaks. As you still get it in doubles.
Single elim is for viewers. It's more exciting to watch. Look how March Madness makes college hoops hella fun.
Double elim is for players. It gets more consistent results. Look how the NBA Playoffs can be hella predictable with lots of sweeps.
Double elim is for players. It gets more consistent results. Look how the NBA Playoffs can be hella predictable with lots of sweeps.
i wasn't looking forward to sfv at all but it still managed to bring the hype, admittedly thanks to the insanely great problemx bipson. i think sf still is a community unifier even if you might not like this particular iteration or version of the game (i'm not the biggest fan of it admittedly). it's still solid and approachable.
I honestly am not a fan of seeing both at Evo, but the thing is that the difference gameplay-wise between Melee and the later Smash games is so pronounced they might as well be different games. A great example is that at Evo 2016 there was a greater player cross-over between Smash 4 and SF5 than between Melee and Smash 4 - Melee players often just don't play Smash 4 at all, and the reverse. So I get why they don't move on, but obviously when the two communities are so fucking toxic to each other it makes the whole thing even worse, because you have these two weird sibling communities fighting and acting like assholes. I also think the Smash community is often pretty painfully immature - even by FGC standards, which is saying something.
It's a difficult problem to solve, and I get why the Evo organizers are in a tough position - if a lot of the Melee players don't play anything else, cutting them out of Evo potentially leaves a lot of money on the table from people who otherwise might skip the event entirely - whereas you could safely cut USF4 in 2016 because you knew that regardless of how it'd pan out quality wise, players would move on to SF5.
I deep down think it could be fun for all concerned.
I'd up the amount of games played, to have the more skilled player win.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but why can't Melee be on a Side Stage next year or something? Again, I get thatbit has a massive fanbase, and a huge following and all that, but at some point, enough is enough, isn't it?
3 out of 5 or 5 out of 7?
Single elim in SFV sounds like a bloodbath, but I'm down to watch.
Side games aren't run officially by Evo. So if Evo were to 'cut' Melee, players could then opt to run it as a side game and Evo would offer some support and a top 8 streaming slot, but obviously you see that doesn't carry nearly the same level of prestige as being a "full" Evo game, and one presumes a lot of Melee pros - who appear to throw their toys out of their stroller at the tiniest perceived slight - would not deem a mere side tournament worth their presence, which'd probably have a knock-on effect and keep even more casual players away. In the end, it's unlikely 1500+ people are going to show for a side tournament is the point, anyhow.
You're right though - at a point you have to draw a line under it, and I think Evo has a wider duty as the larger tournament to keep switching things up and keep showcasing all the different facets of the FGC. That's also why if there is a year to cut Melee and go with just one Smash game, next year is it, as the hype and entrance numbers around Ultimate should be big enough to cover a lot of the fallout.
Single Elim in SF sounds terrible. I hate how long Double Elimination prolongs matches (especially this year wherenit lasted till 3am), but there are so many good comebacks because if it that Id hate to lose it.
For example, Sonic Fox vs Go1 in the DBZF finals.
For example, Sonic Fox vs Go1 in the DBZF finals.
Street Fighter is still the biggest fighting series for the FGC and Evo, it's still the most popular series in the community and SFV the best and biggest game. Without it Evo and FGC wouldn't be the same.
As always there are fans of all series, but they are smaller crowds. The big pilar of the FGC and its eSports is SF.
As always there are fans of all series, but they are smaller crowds. The big pilar of the FGC and its eSports is SF.
Exactly. I mean honestly I don't think the average Twitch viewer is going to care. Ultimate looks incredible and I can almost guarantee the numbers will go up if its the only thing being streamed at that time on Grand Finals Day. Its not like the hardcore Melee fans can't watch the EVO side stage hustle on another stream.
Interesting. I assumed the Side Tourneys held on the floor where still sponsored by Evo in some part. Are they completely independent then?
We're not going to turn this into another Smash thread are we?
There's nothing out that plays like Melee. Full stop. The game will likely never die and maintain its popularity for the foreseeable future as long as Nintendo chooses to act like the Melee community doesn't exist while they develop future titles.
What single elimination tournaments have you watched in the FGC?
There's nothing out that plays like Melee. Full stop. The game will likely never die and maintain its popularity for the foreseeable future as long as Nintendo chooses to act like the Melee community doesn't exist while they develop future titles.
What single elimination tournaments have you watched in the FGC?
You're thinking about Round Robin, which actually is run in some tournaments, but isn't very efficient or feasible for a tournament the size of EVO.
Realistically, a game that consistently gets 1000+ at major events doesn't deserve side tournament treatment, regardless of the amount of money it brings in. In terms of grassroots support, the Melee scene should be seen as a model for self-sustainability, especially in the face of corporate strong-arming.
I think it's going to come down to Nintendo in the end. If they put up the thirty pieces of silver then Melee is gone.
I'd increase the number of games in quarters, to semis to grand (which would be either first to 10, or best of 10)
So it would be something like this.
Quarter finals; 3 out of 5 (or first to 5)
Semi finals: 5 out of 7 (or first to 7)
Grand finals: 8 out of 10 (or first to 10)
I feel it kind should be a blood bath. Big tournaments like that are meant to be the best in the world fighting to see who is superior. You don't really get that if you give them a second chance.
No no. I get that. You'd have to increase the length of EVO. And no one wants that. LOL.
But i'm sure sure some method could be worked out. That would keep a single elim style tourney.