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sabrina

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Taking showers is awesome, using expensive lawn equipment and making your plants and things look neat is very rewarding to some people (looking forward to using new equipment on my yard this weekend). The others seem in line. Also testifying against a mob boss or drug lord type of thing that would put your family in unknown people's crosshairs.

The internet scares me, and I'm glad I'm not in his position. I'm a live like a millionaire (eat well, live comfortably) than actually be one type of person, no lotto curse situation. He just need to hire security, stop acting like a normal person if he doesn't have protections, and continue to talk with his wife and relatives to get them to adjust to this internet spotlight and his job, like actors that get partners that are ok with them doing actor things (especially method actors, that sounds crazy, aka John Bernthal Punisher).
 

Chaos

Member
Oct 31, 2017
37
Yes. He should. He doesn't have to, but he should.

You don't have to take a shower after going to the gym, but you should. You don't have to respect your parents, but you should. You don't have to mow your lawn, but you should. You don't have to tip service workers, but you should.

Genuine question: can you give me a compelling argument for why it's his responsibility to stream with women?

Because to me, i could only go as far as saying: "It would be great if Ninja chose to stream with women, some benefits are x,y and z, and it's a bit disappointing that he isn't." To me, saying "He SHOULD stream with women" or making any argument that could be summed-up similarly is going too far, because it clearly implies that it's his responsibility/obligation and that's just unfair.
 
Nov 1, 2017
809
User Banned (3 days): Dismissing concerns of sexism, drive-by post
Lol people attacking him are exactly why he just wants to just play his games. You guys will complain about anything. Just let him live his life. He doesn't have to justify what him and his wife have agreed to to anyone and he isn't doing anything wrong.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Lol people attacking him are exactly why he just wants to just play his games. You guys will complain about anything. Just let him live his life. He doesn't have to justify what him and his wife have agreed to to anyone and he isn't doing anything wrong.
Yeah you're right, as a self described role model and the most popular streamer in the world not giving female streamers exposure and giving shitty excuses that reinforce harmful stereotypes instead of just telling the toxic portion of his fan base to cut the crap and start moderating and banning people more diligently is perfectly fine.

He just wants to play his games without women though, as he has no problem playing games with men - including rich, famous male celebrities.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I think you are massively underestimating the scale of his online fanbase if you think this is a remotely feasible undertaking.
Tough shit then. Should probably stop calling himself a role model and stop pretending he's all for female inclusivity in the community if he actively works against it.

There's nothing stopping people from shipping him with literally anyone he interacts with. He' being dense.
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Jeeze.... The dude has been kind of an incosistent dork forever. After the Drake reaction video demonstrating no self awareness or grip of reality i peaced out from any interesr. Sexist gaming/fortnite kiddies viewing female gamers as somehow different than male gamers so they make every into "drama" is the story here IMO.
 

SHØGVN

Member
Oct 29, 2017
258
Tough shit then. Should probably stop calling himself a role model and stop pretending he's all for female inclusivity in the community if he actively works against it.

Now this is my purely subjective opinion, but I don't think Ninja is being a bad role model by putting his wife's interests and the security of their marriage before female representation on his streams.
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
Now this is my purely subjective opinion, but I don't think Ninja is being a bad role model by putting his wife's interests and the security of their marriage before female representation on his streams.
I think he's being dense and not thinking it through if he thinks not streaming with women protects the security of their marriage.
 

Amiablepercy

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
3,587
California
Jeeze.... The dude has been kind of an incosistent dork forever. After the Drake reaction video demonstrating no self awareness or grip of reality i peaced out from any interesr. Sexist gaming/fortnite kiddies viewing female gamers as somehow different than male gamers so they make every into "drama" is the compelling story of interest here IMO. He was sort of reaction to the problem and not the problem in this instance.
 

watdaeff4

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,451
Lol people attacking him are exactly why he just wants to just play his games. You guys will complain about anything. Just let him live his life. He doesn't have to justify what him and his wife have agreed to to anyone and he isn't doing anything wrong.
Okay, let's get something straight here.

He doesn't "just want to play his games." I am a person who just wants to play my games to relax, have fun etc. guess what? When I play video games I don't stream and make a big production out of it etc.

Should people respect his privacy outside of his streaming? Yes of course I'm not arguing that.

What I AM saying is that since he made a name and lucrative business model by streaming, and makes a public statement as to why he won't stream with women, it would be naive and foolish to think that statement won't be evaluated and discussed

EDIT: this would be like Tiger Woods coming out and saying he refuses to be paired with a woman on the golf course because "he just wants to play golf"
 

Bloodarmz

Member
Jul 11, 2018
707
Genuine question: can you give me a compelling argument for why it's his responsibility to stream with women?

Because to me, i could only go as far as saying: "It would be great if Ninja chose to stream with women, some benefits are x,y and z, and it's a bit disappointing that he isn't." To me, saying "He SHOULD stream with women" or making any argument that could be summed-up similarly is going too far, because it clearly implies that it's his responsibility/obligation and that's just unfair.

This is probably a deeper philosophical question of whether a single person has any responsibility to their community/environment or if everyone's mindset should be "I'm out to get mine, everyone else is on their own". I feel like adults that have means automatically gain that responsibility to their community. Like an employer has the responsibility to take care of their employees, make sure they are paid a good wage and are shielded from harassment, among other things.

That doesn't apply here, because Blevins himself said he wanted to be a role model. He is a grown man and knows he has a lot of eyes on him. When he realised he had a lot of younger viewers, he started to phase out stronger language from his stream. So when he takes a position that doesn't combat sexism and arguably reinforces it, it shouldn't be a surprise people call him out on it. He is the biggest streamer on Twitch, and Fortnite is one of the biggest games right now.

Like, if people are talking about getting rid of sexist people in a chat/community, and a man says "yeah, but why should it be my responsibility, can't we just let the womenfolk deal with it?" I'm going to have to nope out of the conversation.
 

Gxgear

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,160
Vancouver
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Can't ever share one's thoughts because someone will take it the wrong way. Can't even have an intelligent conversation about it when all anyone wants to do it jump down one's throat.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,893
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Can't ever share one's thoughts because someone will take it the wrong way. Can't even have an intelligent conversation about it when all anyone wants to do it jump down one's throat.

You can't even be sexist these days without people getting upset about it. Even when you have a totally great reason for being sexist! What is the world coming to?
 

Deleted member 2652

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,434
Kind of ironic that Ninja shows up in a Casey Neistat video where Casey is promoting another youtuber.



But Casey is that type of person.
 

Chaos

Member
Oct 31, 2017
37
This is probably a deeper philosophical question of whether a single person has any responsibility to their community/environment or if everyone's mindset should be "I'm out to get mine, everyone else is on their own". I feel like adults that have means automatically gain that responsibility to their community. Like an employer has the responsibility to take care of their employees, make sure they are paid a good wage and are shielded from harassment, among other things.

That doesn't apply here, because Blevins himself said he wanted to be a role model. He is a grown man and knows he has a lot of eyes on him. When he realised he had a lot of younger viewers, he started to phase out stronger language from his stream. So when he takes a position that doesn't combat sexism and arguably reinforces it, it shouldn't be a surprise people call him out on it. He is the biggest streamer on Twitch, and Fortnite is one of the biggest games right now.

Like, if people are talking about getting rid of sexist people in a chat/community, and a man says "yeah, but why should it be my responsibility, can't we just let the womenfolk deal with it?" I'm going to have to nope out of the conversation.

So you're basically saying that because you believe 1) all adults "automatically gain" some sort of "responsibility" to their community along with the fact that 2) he said he wanted to be a role model and took various steps towards that goal.... you are choosing to summarize Ninja's decision with the following?!:

"yeah, but why should it be my responsibility, can't we just let the womenfolk deal with it?"

um... alright then.
 

Bloodarmz

Member
Jul 11, 2018
707
That's not how I summarise his decision, that's just a hypothetical aimed at no one.

Reducing profanity when you hear that a lot of your audience is younger, or that parents watch with their children is admirable, and he did so even when there was a backlash. But when someone says he shouldn't have a duty to reduce sexist behaviour, even though he said he wants to be a role model . . . it makes me wonder what type of role model you want, and what type of role model he wants to be.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
Yeah you're right, as a self described role model and the most popular streamer in the world not giving female streamers exposure and giving shitty excuses that reinforce harmful stereotypes instead of just telling the toxic portion of his fan base to cut the crap and start moderating and banning people more diligently is perfectly fine.

He just wants to play his games without women though, as he has no problem playing games with men - including rich, famous male celebrities.
He mentioned that he hosted/raided (where he sends his viewers to a specific channel) a girl's channel. He doesn't seem to be against giving "female streamers exposure."
 
OP
OP
sabrina

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Can't ever share one's thoughts because someone will take it the wrong way. Can't even have an intelligent conversation about it when all anyone wants to do it jump down one's throat.
lol. All those "intelligent" conversations explaining why it's okay to ban a whole gender from participating with you.


Genuine question: can you give me a compelling argument for why it's his responsibility to stream with women?

Because to me, i could only go as far as saying: "It would be great if Ninja chose to stream with women, some benefits are x,y and z, and it's a bit disappointing that he isn't." To me, saying "He SHOULD stream with women" or making any argument that could be summed-up similarly is going too far, because it clearly implies that it's his responsibility/obligation and that's just unfair.
I could, but it'd be a lot easier for me if you read any one of the previous thirty-five pages where we've explained five hundred times already.
 

henhowc

Member
Oct 26, 2017
33,574
Los Angeles, CA
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Can't ever share one's thoughts because someone will take it the wrong way. Can't even have an intelligent conversation about it when all anyone wants to do it jump down one's throat.

Your first post is just whining about the thread or perhaps discussion in general? I don't see how your post contributes to the "intelligent conversation" you are seeking.
 

Gxgear

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,160
Vancouver
User Banned (5 days): Dismissing concerns of sexism, accusing other members of hive mind behaviour
Your first post is just whining about the thread or perhaps discussion in general? I don't see how your post contributes to the "intelligent conversation" you are seeking.
What discussion? 2 immediately go the sexist route to continue to ridicule, and you for me pointing out what is exactly happening right now as somehow threadwhining. There was no right answer to the question that would have appeased the mob, and we have dozen of pages here to prove it.
 

Bloodarmz

Member
Jul 11, 2018
707
He mentioned that he hosted/raided (where he sends his viewers to a specific channel) a girl's channel. He doesn't seem to be against giving "female streamers exposure."

This sounds cool but maaaaaaaan . . . considering how people have said his viewership is toxic, imagine being a smaller streamer and suddenly having an influx of his viewers, which number 50k plus. You are unlikely to have enough mods to deal with the shit they are going to say, and unlike his own stream, you are not going to have the filter of a sub-only chat avoid the most vile elements. I can imagine being overwhelmed in that situation.
 

Flannery

Member
Aug 11, 2018
5
User Banned (1 Month): Sexism + disingenuous commentary surrounding exclusionary habits. Junior account.
Would you be okay if he stopped streaming with black people due to the racism on twitch? Or Jewish people or gay people or any other kind of minority?

Can you understand how situations like this happen daily and the affect it has on the career of women? And how it might be somewhat understandable it keeps a system in place that locks out women?

Forgive me, but your example is not inline with anything stated in my comment. If he stopped streaming with black people because people on twitch are racist, that'd be feeding a problem. Refusing to stream with women as to prevent people from doing things that can legitimately ruin his reputation and possibly affect his marriage in an adverse manner is much different.

A strong woman can build herself up without the need of a man's help. Are you suggesting women are dependent on men for advancement and growth? If so, I have to ask why you're promoting such harmful, patriarchal ideals. One male streamer looking out for his reputation and relationship by not streaming with female streamers will not negatively influence any female streamers at all. If anything, it merely closes off avenues for his viewer base to grow, which is fine because he made his choice for a good reason.

As for this being a system that locks out women... how? Women can still stream on Twitch. Not being able to co-stream with one person doesn't negatively affect them at all. In fact, let's say half of all male streamers stopped streaming with women. Okay, so the male streamers are now restricted to only streaming with male streamers, drastically limiting their avenues to expand their channel. Female streamers have opportunities with other female streamers and still half of all male streamers. This gives female streamers the edge as their content will have a wider array of personalities available to them and access to more viewers from collaborative efforts. The male streamers who only stream with other male streamers will end up having mostly the same viewers as one another and fewer opportunities for growth.

The problem is, you're raising non-points that are irrelevant to what I actually said and you're using examples that have "reasons" that are completely incongruous to the real-life example and its reasons. I'm not trying to sound dismissive, but I find it hard to understand why you're so ready to infantilize women without thinking through the issue first. I don't know your reason for doing so, but I do want to. Help me understand you.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
This sounds cool but maaaaaaaan . . . considering how people have said his viewership is toxic, imagine being a smaller streamer and suddenly having an influx of his viewers, which number 50k plus. You are unlikely to have enough mods to deal with the shit they are going to say, and unlike his own stream, you are not going to have the filter of a sub-only chat avoid the most vile elements. I can imagine being overwhelmed in that situation.
I don't see how anyone ever keep up with hundreds of people in chats. The last big streamer I regularly watched was Kripparian during Diablo 3 and Path of Exile. He never payed attention to his chat, I think he may have read donations.

When people get raided usually the viewers that come over give donations or spam the chat saying nice enough things in unison (raid! raid!!), and that makes the person pretty overwhelmed, so I doubt it went badly unless people said bad things in the donation text. :\ I wouldn't doubt it though, the internet is too cruel, I know that first hand.

I feel bad for people building a small community of what they think are friends that watch them play games, and have to deal with the filth of anonymous, heartless, angry people that make a game of griefing people, just like stream snipers.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
What discussion? 2 immediately go the sexist route to continue to ridicule, and you for me pointing out what is exactly happening right now as somehow threadwhining. There was no right answer to the question that would have appeased the mob, and we have dozen of pages here to prove it.

Let me switch it around for you. What discussion is there to have? He gave a really shitty reason for a sexist move and people are calling him out on it. Furthermore, he said he "wants to be a role-model". Guess what? If you put those words, than your actions and words will have repercussions.
 

moriquendi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
464
Honestly this seems more complex then many are making it. While I agree his position is problematic, far too many are too dismissive of his concerns. Given how many examples there are of toxic and bizarre behaviour by 'fans' it's really not that far a step to see why he could be concerned. Look at the recent twitter posts by @dexbonus (wife of @strippin a former yogscast member). When they began their relationship someone hired a PI to try to find evidence he cheated, harassed his family, and had people send her links of porn star look-a-likes. Some harassment went on for two years. I can see where someone would want to try to avoid having their spouse exposed to such behaviour.
 

tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Forgive me, but your example is not inline with anything stated in my comment. If he stopped streaming with black people because people on twitch are racist, that'd be feeding a problem. Refusing to stream with women as to prevent people from doing things that can legitimately ruin his reputation and possibly affect his marriage in an adverse manner is much different.
I don't agree with this. You think that refusing a black person is a problem (that I'd agree with) , but here in this real world that refusing women is not? In the white person/ black person hypothetical, wouldn't the streamers face the same rumors/harassment?
 
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tommy7154

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,370
Honestly this seems more complex then many are making it. While I agree his position is problematic, far too many are too dismissive of his concerns. Given how many examples there are of toxic and bizarre behaviour by 'fans' it's really not that far a step to see why he could be concerned. Look at the recent twitter posts by @dexbonus (wife of @strippin a former yogscast member). When they began their relationship someone hired a PI to try to find evidence he cheated, harassed his family, and had people send her links of porn star look-a-likes. Some harassment went on for two years. I can see where someone would want to try to avoid having their spouse exposed to such behaviour.
My wife was harassed through ebay for a couple months. Fucking ebay of all places. And we're certainly not famous streamers. She cried over it, had weirdos calling her thanks to one piece of shit giving her name and number out (which of course had to be changed). It was hell for her. And this was one person.

So while I think he can and should do more, I'm not going to attack him for not wanting to deal with that.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
The misogyny in gaming community (and otherwise) is tiring and frustrating. It's really disappointing to see hugely popular streamer like Ninja refusing to use the platform he has and take a proper stand against it. We have Pewdiepies and Boogies already, we need something better. Though not wanting to make yourself or your family a target of harassment is a reasonable concern, so I wouldn't be too harsh on Ninja. I don't have any experience of being a celeb or more precisely a gaming celeb, in gaming the audience is probably more direct and toxic than in any other medium. But that's also exactly why big name streamers and Youtubers especially should push for change, not just with words but with actions.
 
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Braag

Member
Nov 7, 2017
1,908
I get what he's saying. People love to stir up shit and cause drama.
Just streaming with a girl can make people start gossiping about them.
He's trying to avoid that by all means necessary.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,592
Lol people attacking him are exactly why he just wants to just play his games. You guys will complain about anything. Just let him live his life. He doesn't have to justify what him and his wife have agreed to to anyone and he isn't doing anything wrong.
I mean

Don't say things if you don't want people to react to the things you say? That seems super easy! If I don't want people to care what I think about tort reform I'm not going to express my opinions on tort reform publicly.

The world doesn't exist just to either agree with me or ignore me.
 

Chaos

Member
Oct 31, 2017
37
User Banned (3 Days): Antagonizing other members over a series of posts
lol. All those "intelligent" conversations explaining why it's okay to ban a whole gender from participating with you.



I could, but it'd be a lot easier for me if you read any one of the previous thirty-five pages where we've explained five hundred times already.

Five hundred times... hmm. Not very productive, this response.

I asked a question in earnest, Intending to start a meaningful dialogue and hopefully, hopefully learn from someone with a different perspective. Whatevs, I guess.
 

LinLeigh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
193
Five hundred times... hmm. Not very productive, this response.

I asked a question in earnest, Intending to start a meaningful dialogue and hopefully, hopefully learn from someone with a different perspective. Whatevs, I guess.

Because excluding a whole section of people based on their gender is discriminatory and has real consequences. As a society we should be okay to say discriminatory practices are bullshit and the people that perpetrate them should be called out if we ever want to live in a better world.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Five hundred times... hmm. Not very productive, this response.

I asked a question in earnest, Intending to start a meaningful dialogue and hopefully, hopefully learn from someone with a different perspective. Whatevs, I guess.

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