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Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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The difference being that someone claiming the world is flat doesn't have an overwhelming body of supporting evidence and personal accounts of explorers finding the edges, available at a moment's notice, that anyone interested in the topic could look up before joining the discussion.
Do you understand that you are asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt based on your lack of belief in something you haven't experienced, while you are asking for widely available data to be posted to back up accounts of something actually happening. Do you understand why that is sheer hypocrisy and ridiculous considering how easily that information is to find with the web browser you are using to type this?
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But what are you trying to say? It seems to me that your point is that 'things aren't that bad' - something entirely irrelevant to the discussion. People have tried to explain institutionalized sexism to you more than once, and there is no lack of online resources and articles to find on the subject. You seem to ignore those and fall back on the same anecdotal evidence and feelings. It's an endless loop. It adds nothing to the discussion and only serves to detract from or diminish the issue being discussed.
I don't think you have bad intentions, it's just that the main point you want to make (sexism exists but there is no institutionalized sexism) serves no real purpose other than to detract from the discussion, and you seem unable to support that point with anything other than anecdotal evidence and feelings.
Comparing the existence of institutional sexism and patriarchy to flat earth beliefs? Why aren't you banned yet Mr Sea Lion?
I speak now from my own perspective. I won't speak for the women that you know personally. If they have truly never been victims of some form of sexism, systematic or otherwise, then I am truly happy for them. However, I do not believe that to be the case. Most women just don't speak about their experiences because they get dismissed or mansplained in some fashion, which shuts them up. I, myself, have kept quiet on numerous occasions. Because who cares what a woman has to say? This thread is evidence of that, clearly.
Sexism is absolutely ingrained in our society, in our history, and in our culture. Women only received the right to vote within the last century. We have continuously struggled to be included in STEM fields, maintenance fields, and other male dominated industries, because many view that we are "incapable" of doing said jobs or doing anything other than being wives and mothers. I, myself, work in maintenance on military-grade aircraft. I maintain systems and have knowledge that most people struggle to understand. I work in a unit of about 15 women, total, in contrast to about 150 men. And I have had to work twice as hard as my male coworkers to be treated with the same level of respect. I wasn't even allowed to carry the toolbox because the guys thought I couldn't handle it when I first got here. They insisted on carrying it for me. I had to prove them wrong. I have been mansplained at my job because they thought I couldn't understand maintenance and mechanical concepts. I have been told on numerous occasions that "you're just a SJW and you'll complain about anything, you don't have it as bad as you say." These are all examples of sexism, and it happens to more than just me on a daily basis, worldwide.
Men do these things because they have, historically, been taught that it's okay. It's okay to tell a woman that she should smile more, because the purpose of a woman is to be pretty so that men will be attracted to her. It's okay to call her a bitch if she turns a man down, because the only thing girls are good for is to be a piece of ass. It's okay to implement wage gaps based on gender, because women shouldn't be included in the workplace anyway. It's okay for a man to tell a woman what to do with her own body in regards to abortion or otherwise, because a woman's body is truly the property of her husband or boyfriend. These are all examples of sexism.
Even in video games, we are treated like second-class citizens and inferior to male gamers. When was the last time you saw a woman in any prominent e-sports team? Why are women constantly delegated to support-type roles and if we dare play anything else, we get treated like we don't know what we're doing? It has happened to me NUMEROUS times. Why are female characters treated like sex objects to be consumed by the male gaze through fanservice, sexual attitudes and portrayals, and a general sense of inferiority to their male counterparts? These are all examples of sexism.
And now, the very topic of this thread. Female character designs are highly sexualized and objectified in contrast to their male counterparts for the purpose of attracting male consumers, even if it degrades or offends the real life women who may play the game. It is a reflection of a gender, as a whole, that women are good for nothing more than to be aesthetically pleasing. Why is this? Because men have been taught by society and history that it's okay to treat women like this, and because women have been taught to shut up and deal with it, that video games are for boys, and if you don't like it, then too bad. It is unfair, and it is a form of sexism.
Just because you haven't personally experienced it does not mitigate the effects of sexism in the lives of others, nor does it disprove its existence in both the modern and virtual worlds.
Which is such a none argument.
First this very thread has plenty of men saying they are getting fed up the heavy fanservice.
Women are the biggest growth potential for a lot of games. Some games already have a big female audience. It makes no business sense to actively alienate this market.
And isn't it easy to not talk about other media because it doesn't fit your narrative.
I don't really understand why you would respond that to me after I replied directly to a post talking about Hugh Jackman.
Can we frame this and put it at Resetera entrance door please?
Thanks for not dismissing me as a troll. It's getting frustrating when everyone thinks I'm just some edgelord anti-feminist shitposter. I think I'll drop out of this discussion to not derail the thread anymore. Also I'll check out some papers on this topic maybe I missed something.
If you would try to shitpost, you would have been warned/banned by now. Can't do something so obvious.
Yes okay, you have your anecdotal evidence, but there is massive empirical evidence saying the contrary. Might be hard to accept, yet it seems hard to acknowledge that you seem to be in a "lucky" situation. It has improved over the last couple decades, yet it's still there, in so many aspects of our life.
1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Sent to 600,000 people and response rate was 11%. Not exactly what I'd call comprehensive given how many Switches have been sold. It's also US only and shows buyers, not players.1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
edit: Oops, early post. I hope you at least take away something positive from the discussion, or at least gained some insights into why people are so passionate in discussing these issues, despite the perceived nastiness.
These kinds of arguments based on market data simply loop into themselves. Videogames are marketed towards men, so more men buy videogames, so more men play videogames, so more videogames are made for men. It's entirely self-contained. The statistics simply show that the issue is there, not that videogames are inherently 'male' or 'for boys'.1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
And I don't think anyone is saying games 'aimed towards men' should stop being made.
I'll also quote my post from the thread about the specific stats you presented;
The data does not show an actual gender split among Switch players.
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1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Great chart but it only proves my point. The numbers are a lot lower then the ps4 or even the 3ds.
So Nintendo already have the male buyers but not the female buyers. RPGs are a genre popular amongst women so it would be more sensible to refrain from designs that repeal women.
Also there is no proof that a jrpg with huge amounts of fan service sells better than the ones without.
So I should be happy with a specific subgenre while the rest of gaming is aimed at men. And not just aimed at men but who feels like reducing designs to fuck holes is totally okay?
When I was growing up gaming was for kids not just boys. Maybe girls stopped gaming because they were treated as second rate citizens. Maybe the fact that for most systems we are still a third of the market shows how much women like gaming.
I think you are taking my example as an insinuation that I think men are sexualized as much or as often as women. I dont. It is blatantly obvious that T&A is much more commonly used as a pandering tool to sell products (games, lingerie, movies, alcohol, you name it).
I was merely trying to draw some sort of a relation to explain why I feel like male video game characters are sexualized as well (and much more freuquently than male chars in movies or TV as your Prof X/Beast/etc example shows).
Another poster mentioned that I am confusing 'idealization' and 'sexualization'. I would argue they are one and the same. It is very difficult to sexualize an average-sized, average-featured character, either male or female. By making every video game character the idealized version of that sex, they are inherently sexualized.
Please dont mistake this as a "both sides" argument. If all boobs and scantily clad women were removed from all games, but we still had the chiseled muscle men, I wouldnt have a problem with that, because the power dynamic is different. You arent exploiting the male characters nearly as much as the female, simply because we live in a patriarchal society. Much like how although racism against whites exists, it isnt nearly as endemic nor as problematic simply because of the power dynamic of whites being in the majority.
So yes, I do agree that the sexualization of female characterd is a problem. But that problem is a symptom of a much bigger issue about catering to base human instincts, of which sex and sexuality is only one. Until we solve the latter, bigger problem, I feel like the symptom of sexual pandering isn't going anywhere.
Ok, to be fair, Hard Data on gender demographic is hard to come by as most studies are done by independent parties on what would be rather small sample userbase and then just extrapolated the % as Dmax said, the Switch thing is highly small compared to the whole Units sold.
I dont feel publisher do this out of evil or not caring for women, but more as financial matter. the cycle or marketed, buy and made for is something that comes from the early era of vidya were men do were out of question the major userbase. today on. more and more women are into games. some games cause of their broad appeal (think Mario Kart for example) and some games directly designed to appeal to em (mostly Otome tho) and the indie scene tries it hand a lot to make games that will attract em.
Its AA-AAA publisher that given the cost of marketing and production would rather stay within its safe boundaries of who to aim for when making a game.
I can see why Women are angry about those things, Men deal with it too but not at the same frequency, I personally don't care about it because I'm fine with both form of sexualisation.
We need to remember that all of it is pure fiction, Men and Women in medias in general are enhanced in purpose ( perfect looks, perfect hair in every situation, stronger than any human is capable of etc... ), they are everything average people aren't and that's why people in general wants to identify with them but I think, overall, Women have a better image in medias now than in the last 10 years which is good.
We need to remember that all of it is pure fiction, Men and Women in medias in general are enhanced in purpose ( perfect looks, perfect hair in every situation, stronger than any human is capable of etc... ), they are everything average people aren't and that's why people in general wants to identify with them but I think, overall, Women have a better image in medias now than in the last 10 years which is good.
That graph is a better analysis of early adopters than of Nintendo's wider customer base.1) and how much of that represent the whole industry? how many of em are % of all the people and males that buy games??? they are entitled to their opinion as we all are, but that does not means their opinion weights more or less than anyone else.
2) yes, there are games direct to women or made straight up to appeal to em. or count em withing the broard audience, there is a sub genre (otome) dedicated for women. does that means that there should stop making games more aimed towards men??
3) cause this is a VIDEO GAMES Sub Forum?? not Etcetera.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Its a recurring theme of this thread for most of the later pages, and even I probably did the same by bringing out a repeat discussion. I think all possible takes on why the women in the thread would like a reduction in hormonal pandering on videogames in general has been made, and drive by or repeat posts just pad the pages
I did indeed and I'm happy to read your explanation although I don't necessarily agree.
I don't think sexualised characters are bad per se. No matter the gender. I think it only becomes an issue when it is so much more common.
If a jrpg had a few ridiculous designs for both male and female and had a bunch of normal designs personally I would be fine.
With the gaze camera shots being an exception. They always distract away. I wish that shit would die.
Its not a narrative,nor im just pulling numbers out of my ass or anything, take for Example Nintendo. the one called usually the family friend console
Regarding this chart, the problem with it is outright stated in the note at the bottom, the data collection method. An Intro to Statistics student can pretty much rip this data to pieces; however, since it has been so long since I have been in that class, I found something that can explain the problems here better than I can.
The advantages and disadvantages of questionnaires
This is true and common problem but I'd hardly throw out the data, the number of the sample size is very good though obviously self selecting and the wording isn't too awful.
Wouldn't used as absolute same with every thing of this nature but it's a reasonable indicator in terms of early adoption.
Yeah that really would be a nice change. I have found myself drifting away from AAA games in general, especially shooters and JRPGs, because of the blatant pandering. I dont like calling it fan service, because which fans is it servicing? Obviously not the women, gay men, or straight men that arent sexually repressed juveniles. It's really pathetic sometimes.
Piratebae mentioned something that I wanted to address in her explaination of instances of sexism - men wanting to carry the tool box (not letting her specifically). This touches on part of this discussion that is very difficult for men. Growing up, many of us were taught to respect women, but also to be chivalrous (open the door for her, offer to carry a heavy object, etc). In today's culture though, even the mere offerance of assistance is seen as sexism. So my question is when does it become sexism? Is my merely OFFERING to carry the tools or open a door sexism? Or does it only become sexism if the woman declines assistance and I insist on her taking it? I ask because as I said I was raised to be chivalrous and helpful to women, but have had offerances of help result in both good and bad reactions. Interestingly enough, I work as a male nurse and whenever something calls for someone strong , the female nurses always ask me for help even if there are other female nurses working that are LITERALLY 2x as strong as me.
1) Back to %, how many woman do feel "repealed" by the designs of an RPG? how many woman decided to skip Berseria cause Velvet// Magillou or Automata cause of 2B?? sure there are people that wont feel it appeals to em, its happens to every aspect of a game, but its hard to really condemn said aspect if we dont know how much it really favors or not user attention.
also is not like Publisher are not aware of this. Final Fantasy, one of the most (if not the most) Popular RPG series, XV core cast is Bishonen (beautiful youth (boy)).
2) Is there proof of the opposite then? than games with less fanservice sell better?
3) Now days games that make purely design game to just be "fuck holes" are not the norm, like Onee-chan bara, Just because a woman design is sexy does not mean the character itself is void of personality, Bayonetta, 2B, Wonder Pink, Samus, The Boss, Lara Croft, Sakura, Widowmaker, Mercy, Tracer, Sombra, Jill Valentine, Claire Redfield, Ada Wong, Sherry Birkin, Chun-lee, Cammy, Cassie Cage, Faith.
hell, by all matters, I would pay hard cold cash to see a publisher try its hand at this (as long as gameplay stills good)
4) so you are saying that as woman are 1/3 of the industry now, 1/3 of the game should be made to appeal to em?? cause from the top of my head, games are not strictly aiming only to women, but they keep becoming more "broad" to appeal to as many people as possible. and possitive female representation have been on the raise in the past decade also
Would you offer a male friend to help carry his suitcase? If he had a long trip or you can see him struggling. You probably would. If he declined would you keep insisting?
I don't have an issue with offering unless it is very clear I don't need help. But insisting is annoying. And I like it when people hold the door when they get there first but I will do the same and I expect you to walk through it without freaking out.
I actually had a coworker who started to walk faster everytime we got near a door. Afraid I would hold the door. He was shocked after the first time.
But they are not one and the same. An idealized character is not inherently sexualized. There is nothing sexual about how Christian Bale Batman is portrayed. Wonder Woman is arguably an idealized character, but she is not overtly sexualized. Anyone may find either of them sexy for whatever reason, but they aren't portrayed as sexualized. Yes, characters can be both, but idealization does not inherently lead to sexualization.
We all know that this is part of a larger problem. Discussing these issues is still important because it makes more people aware of them, which in turn may eventually reach those in power.
I don't think they do it out of evil either. They do it because there is a perceived risk, but that risk is not one I see any basis in reality for. Horizon Zero Dawn has a female protagonist, and I see no evidence that that alone had any negative effect on the game's sales.
Would you demanding this if we were talking about not liking open world games? Most of the women in this thread are trying to make their displeasure known.
Yet you dismiss it first as not being an issue because games is aimed at men and then not being an issue because women don't care enough themselves.
Well here we are trying to let the world know that we are interested in games and that we don't like it when games have those pandering designs.
im not dismissing it, im just saying how much can the opinion of the people (woman) in the forum be reflected on the whole market??
we sure can make a poll for all RE User (30,422) about whether or not fanservice in a game is a con for em. and we will know the general opinion of the forum, but those 30K people we can not just assume they are a 1:1 reflect of the market when (if we imply there are about 100M single count players in the market) 30K user equals 0.03% sample data.
Vidya is slowly transitioning to appeal more to woman, maybe is too slow for some people, maybe will take another 10 years to be more evident, but changes are being made, baby steps, baby steps
I actually do think both Batman (Bale) and Wonder Woman are sexualized, though WW far moreso. She is wearing a short skirt and a skin-tight torso piece. At least it seems to be armor (the torso piece), and added with the wrist guards she definitely has more tools at her disposal than average, but she is still very scantily clad for someone that is taking on villains of all sorts. I'm not sure what a better outfit would be. As for Batman, the fact that his suit still has to look lile muscles for no apparent reason strikes me as sexualized in a way, though as I said significantly less than a miniskirt-wearing heroine.
'We can do a poll based on an extreme simplification of the thread title, but even if the results state the opposite of what I imagine they will, it would be irrelevant'.
Developers don't need to have a financial interest in solely making characters to cater to women. They should make better characters because it makes better games, something that is very much within the remit of criticism and forum discussion. 'More rounded, varied female characters, yes/no' is hardly unreasonable and would get a better response than 'is fanservice a pro/con', when eradificaion of it isn't what people are asking for. Nobody wants to take the cartoon titties away, it just gets framed that way as it's easier to rally support against the argument that way.
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Oh yeah I certainly offer to help males if I see them struggling or if I know it is better a two-person job than a one person job. And I have a tendency to hold the door for whoever happens to be behind me. But I have opened a car door for a female date in the past. Some responded that it was sweet. A couple were massively offended that I even attempted to open the car door for them, one so much so that the date ended right then and there. I was just trying to be chivalrous, but it was outright offensive to a couple of women. I occasionally open the door of the car or a store for my wife, though extremely rarely for the car. Store doors I tend to always get because my arms have a longer reach, but I dont step to the side in an 'after you madame' way, just push it aside and walk through holding it, either in front of or behind her. She has never been offended and often says 'thanks babe'.
Obviously it depends entirely on the person and the context. If I were working with Piratebae and offered to carry a heavy toolbox once and she declined, I would likely never offer again. Gotta acknowledge boundaries when they are presented. It is still very confusing when it seems like a lot of women want us to assume they are strong enough, while an equally large number (like my coworkers) keep having th3se expectations of "the big strong man will help". I mean I am downright self conscious about it. I'm not small or weak, being 6'1" and 195lbs, but if a female coworker asks for my help lifting or moving a patient that fell on the floor and I can't do it due to not being strong enough, it is embarassing. The expectation of my strength as a man feels somewhat like what I imagine the expectation of looking pretty would feel like as a woman.
I don't mean to derail the thread. If this is too OT we can go to PMs.
im not saying we should not talk about it, im saying we can not extrapolate the forum as 1:1 image of the industry as a whole.
regarding the "characters that appeal to women are you implying on a reverse sexualized male characters or female role models?? cause both exist tho. not as wide as the ones aimed for men, but they exist, some have been for decades (hi Samus). those characters keep popping up, slowly, but they do.
I believe some times, female characters are overlooked personality wise just cause they are also sexy.
Your posts are really coming off as "there are examples of good female characters so lets stop worry about the massive flood of the opposite" and "change is happening, its slow but its happening so thats good enough".
That's me as a white male reading them. Not trying to white knight, just saying that they aren't very productive.
apologize if it reads like that. not the intention, but I think is worth to mention as some post (IMO) read as if the industry were not even trying or never have.
I think thats a sentiment that everyone should agree with no mater the gender viewing this thread. A forced camera up a girl in shorts ass or bikini armor as a default outfit will not enhance the experience of anyone playing a game for the pursuit of having fun with a videogame.
On the other hand, some of the suggestions of non sexualized characters are comprised of full body armor, or a sleeveless design as the only way to not "sexualize" a female character, and that I disagree with. The use of shorts or a skirt on a female character doesnt deserve a call to arms, it is the intentional placement of scenes or gratuitous close up shots to turn the getup into fan service that should be discouraged.
Pretty much your most latter point. Obviously not randomly tossing it into works where it wouldn't make at least partial sense (though with the camo index, boxer Snake in MGS3 might be a neat challenge). Otome's are the best place to find that kind of stuff right now, but they're unfortunately on the lower-budget end. A mid-budget action game targeting the otome VN audience would be super nice.
It's hard to infer tone on a forum. I just wanted to point it out because emotions can get heated and if I got that tone it might be a stronger adversarial tone for someone else in a less advantageous position.
The industry at large has made progress, no denying that. But it seems like a two steps forward one-or-often-more steps back situation.
I think in many ways the "tits and ass" culture of the industry is similar to the short-form problem in mainstream media. Youtubers have proven there is a very real, and very lucrative, market for long-form content that isnt so homogenzied and streamlined. Yet mainstream media insists on sticking to their old formulas, to their detriment. Similarly many promising yound indie devs have shown that there is a very real, very lucrative market for games that arent all about titillation. Yet the larger studios are willfully oblivious and continue their old dogma of pandering.
Holy freaking shit. The patience you people have makes the Buddha look like Kratos. Pirate Bae, FyreWulff, I don't believe in heaven but I'm sure someone must be constructing one just for you. Thank you both for doing what I couldn't even dream of without literally biting someone's jugular off.
As a male, this is incredible, exceedingly frustrating. I think of my female friends, of my significant other, of all their struggles and all the times they've had to deal with dismissive or creepy dudes, of how they're regularly paid much less than males, and it makes me so furious to see someone say that didn't really happen.
I can't even begin to fathom how it must feel for women themselves. I may be repeating myself but I quite literally cannot conceive how deep your pool of patience must be. I just wanted to express my full support, for what it might serve.
Considering the missus goes weak in the knees every time Hugh Jackman shows onscreen (and if he takes his shirt off I have to rush for something to cushion her falling), you could have replaced Kratos with any of the FFXV protagonists and my answer would have been the same. :D
And you didn't even mention Mystique, the blue girl played by a supermodel who literally shows onscreen butt naked except for a few skin scales. I mean:
Considering how women in comic books are already hyper sexualized, it's not everyday that one sees an adaptation that manages to take it even further. I mean, at least in comics Mystique is fully clothed (or, well, what passes for "fully clothed" there):
I believe Mystique in the X-Men movies is a very cool character and while she is sexualized, she's also a very strong character (in both meanings of the term, character abilities and writing, especially in later movies where they focus on her internal struggle). I think it's an example of sexualization done at least partially right, but the fact that a naked model is overlooked when making a list of sexualized characters in X-Men movies, is a true testament to how sexualization is so commonplace we all have interiorized it as background radiation. And that is not OK.
Great post. This is one of the few instances where I think "I don't see gender" is the appropriate stance. I hold the door for everyone if I got to it first. I offer to carry heavy stuff for everyone if they seem to be struggling. I give my seat to older people of any gender, people in casts or pregnant women, but not to young women. If a woman holds the door for me I simply smile and thank her like I would a man. I've done this all since my teens when I realized some people weren't confortable with being treated any differently, and once you get used to it you don't even think about it.
Bonus tip: if someone passes you a jar with a stuck lid, rather than being macho and open it via brute force, fetch a spoon and pry open the edge to let some air in. Your wrists will thank you by the time you're my age (twisting movements are about the worst thing you can do to them), and they may learn the trick so you make them self-sufficient for next time.
As a male, this is incredible, exceedingly frustrating. I think of my female friends, of my significant other, of all their struggles and all the times they've had to deal with dismissive or creepy dudes, of how they're regularly paid much less than males, and it makes me so furious to see someone say that didn't really happen.
I can't even begin to fathom how it must feel for women themselves. I may be repeating myself but I quite literally cannot conceive how deep your pool of patience must be. I just wanted to express my full support, for what it might serve.
Considering the missus goes weak in the knees every time Hugh Jackman shows onscreen (and if he takes his shirt off I have to rush for something to cushion her falling), you could have replaced Kratos with any of the FFXV protagonists and my answer would have been the same. :D
And you didn't even mention Mystique, the blue girl played by a supermodel who literally shows onscreen butt naked except for a few skin scales. I mean:
Considering how women in comic books are already hyper sexualized, it's not everyday that one sees an adaptation that manages to take it even further. I mean, at least in comics Mystique is fully clothed (or, well, what passes for "fully clothed" there):
I believe Mystique in the X-Men movies is a very cool character and while she is sexualized, she's also a very strong character (in both meanings of the term, character abilities and writing, especially in later movies where they focus on her internal struggle). I think it's an example of sexualization done at least partially right, but the fact that a naked model is overlooked when making a list of sexualized characters in X-Men movies, is a true testament to how sexualization is so commonplace we all have interiorized it as background radiation. And that is not OK.
Great post. This is one of the few instances where I think "I don't see gender" is the appropriate stance. I hold the door for everyone if I got to it first. I offer to carry heavy stuff for everyone if they seem to be struggling. I give my seat to older people of any gender, people in casts or pregnant women, but not to young women. If a woman holds the door for me I simply smile and thank her like I would a man. I've done this all since my teens when I realized some people weren't confortable with being treated any differently, and once you get used to it you don't even think about it.
Bonus tip: if someone passes you a jar with a stuck lid, rather than being macho and open it via brute force, fetch a spoon and pry open the edge to let some air in. Your wrists will thank you by the time you're my age (twisting movements are about the worst thing you can do to them), and they may learn the trick so you make them self-sufficient for next time.
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Not only women suffer from our current society and not all women want equality or are feminist.
I don't think anyone has the definite rule book but as long as we are willing to listen to each other with empathy it will get better.
Especially if we teach our children the lessons we learned.
User was banned (24h) for disingenuous arguments, ignoring the thread's history. Please at least read the OP before posting.
Games are full of half naked men with pounding muscles and textured nipples. Maybe in one out of hundred games there is a woman who is modeled in a sexist exploited way - and only then it becomes a "big deal". The hypocrisy knows no boundaries.
If there is someone who should be angry, it is the men. Men are some of the most exploited creatures on this planet. The sexism against men is ten times worse than the one against women. Just watch any Hollywood movie and count the half naked men compared to half naked women, I swear you will be surprised by the ratio. Muscles everywhere, men are shown as sex objects much more often than women.
And remember that all these products where men are being exploited, the producers are mostly men.
How is it when the producers are women? Just look at the Japanese ikemen-gay games where almost all the staff are women. They draw some of the most sexist shit on this planet and make all men look like sex slaves to women.
I do not like this debate.
If there is someone who should be angry, it is the men. Men are some of the most exploited creatures on this planet. The sexism against men is ten times worse than the one against women. Just watch any Hollywood movie and count the half naked men compared to half naked women, I swear you will be surprised by the ratio. Muscles everywhere, men are shown as sex objects much more often than women.
And remember that all these products where men are being exploited, the producers are mostly men.
How is it when the producers are women? Just look at the Japanese ikemen-gay games where almost all the staff are women. They draw some of the most sexist shit on this planet and make all men look like sex slaves to women.
I do not like this debate.
And you didn't even mention Mystique, the blue girl played by a supermodel who literally shows onscreen butt naked except for a few skin scales. I mean:
.
Oh I didn't forget her but I really didn't want a discussion how she is all about not being judged on her appearance and that I'm shaming a character that is all about being yourself.
And I really couldn't be bothered. But of course you are right she should have been included.
Is this a joke post? I mean I know I mentioned the sexualization of men in games and movies exists, but to act like it is even remotely on par with the level that women are viewed as sex objects is absolute lunacy.
This has to be a joke post.
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