Do you believe in a higher power? (God, etc.)

Air · Aug 13, 2018

RoadHazard said:
We know an incredible amount, all thanks to science. Not religion (although some great scientists, especially early on, were also religious).

I dot't dispute this and even said the same in in my post.

It's because of science that I can say that our knowledge is dwarfed by the unknown. Just going by physics, we know less than 5% of what makes up reality. Start throwing up more theoretical frameworks and that number could fluctuate. That we know so much gives us a better perspective on what we don't know

subpar spatula · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
What we "know" is simply our understanding, is it not?

We don't know why things are here, they are just here. We make educated guesses to the best of our ability. Do you actually 100% know what the force of gravity is? No, we just measured its properties, created our logical laws around it and gave it a name for the sake of our sanity.

Do we know why two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen make water? Not really, we just know it takes 2H and one O to do it. Acknowledging there is a basic filter for our understanding to begin isn't a negative thing. Thats just how we are. Yes, potential for knowledge is always growing. Thats the best part about the miracle of life.

What are you doing?

Deleted member 44129 · Aug 13, 2018

Religion makes no sense to me on any level. To me, it can be dispelled through some very simple prodding with logic, but those who have faith have just that as a defence - "I just know, you just have to believe, you just have to go with it".

I have respect for religious people. I do not like religion itself. It has caused a lot of pain, and good (and evil too) exists in people without it.

D i Z · Aug 13, 2018

WhySoDevious said:
What is this from?

One of the Riddick movies. The escape from the prison world that is constantly on fire.

Soapbox Killer · Aug 13, 2018

Seth Balmore said:
I'd like to, I think I'd be a happier person, but I don't.

I find believers to be overall happier in my limited world experience. It seems like having a fall back to go to for all your problems has an effect on your stress/happiness factor. I know this is not 100% but I have watched the change.

Something happens inside when you begin to believe either In God or in people. Sure there are children who are brought up in religious houses but there are countless stories of Rhodes who found their way as an adult.

Deleted member 31133 · Aug 13, 2018

I consider myself atheist, but even I question the point of life and human existence. Why are we here? Why is anything here. What was before the big bang. Why did the big bang happen in the first place?

Sex feels good so we actually do it and reproduce, but why? Does sex feel Amar for all animals or just humans. Do hamsters have mind blowing orgasams? Or is this pleasure just for humans?

So many questions that I'm sure Science will answer, but at the moment everything seems so planned out.

Maybe I shouldn't enter a thread like this while drunk as fuck.

Deleted member 4247 · Aug 13, 2018

Air said:
I dot't dispute this and even said the same in in my post.

It's because of science that I can say that out knowledge is dwarfed by the unknown. Just going by physics, we know less than 5% of what makes up reality. Start throwing up more theoretical frameworks and that number could fluctuate. That we know so much gives us a better perspective on what we don't know

That's pretty disingenuous phrasing. It's not like we know 5 things and have no idea what the other 95 things are. It's just that most of the universe is made up of one or two things that we don't yet understand.

I'm not saying there isn't a lot we don't know yet. But you make it sound like we basically know nothing, and that's not really true.

Deleted member 4247 · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
What we "know" is simply our understanding, is it not?

We don't know why things are here, they are just here. We make educated guesses to the best of our ability. Do you actually 100% know what the force of gravity is? No, we just measured its properties, created our logical laws around it and gave it a name for the sake of our sanity.

Do we know why two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen make water? Not really, we just know it takes 2H and one O to do it. Acknowledging there is a basic filter for our understanding to begin isn't a negative thing. Thats just how we are. Yes, potential for knowledge is always growing. Thats the best part about the miracle of life.

Hah, what. You may not know how water works, but chemists and physicists sure do.

LookAtMeGo · Aug 13, 2018

subpar spatula said:
Can you give the free version?

Even still, the abstract doesn't actually say religion helped further humanity:

"cognitive representations of gods as increasingly knowledgeable and punitive, and who sanction violators of interpersonal social norms, foster and sustain the expansion of cooperation, trust and fairness towards co-religionist strangers"

This doesn't mean humanity would be worse off without religion. Without reading this obvious "gotta buy to read" argument, it's quite obvious they're showing you can strong arm people with religion.

Sorry I dont have a free version.
Is see your point in it being used to strong arm people and agree. I was arguing against you saying that we would be better off/further along without it.

For real though its an interesting subject. I have to buckle down and finish up my work here, im slacking too much at the moment.

I read a book called "the god part of the brain" a while back and I think thats where I got the idea that a belief in god was a necessary evolutionary thing that contributed to our advancement as a species.

Cokie Bear · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
What we "know" is simply our understanding, is it not?

We don't know why things are here, they are just here. We make educated guesses to the best of our ability. Do you actually 100% know what the force of gravity is? No, we just measured its properties, created our logical laws around it and gave it a name for the sake of our sanity.

Do we know why two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen make water? Not really, we just know it takes 2H and one O to do it. Acknowledging there is a basic filter for our understanding to begin isn't a negative thing. Thats just how we are. Yes, potential for knowledge is always growing. Thats the best part about the miracle of life.

You're just listing things we don't know. There are lots of things we do know. We don't know why gravity exists but we know enough about how it works to land rovers on a planet 30 million miles away. You're basically saying we don't know anything because we don't know the origins of physics.

zoukka · Aug 13, 2018

Air said:
We do know a lot of things, but in relation to what we know we don't know, let alone any unknown unknowns, it's not much.

It's a lot. And knowledge isn't a linear curve, it's exponential. Some millenia ago we barely knew other civilizations existed. Some centuries ago we thought the earth was a disc and the universe rotated around us. Not we have split the atom, escaped earths gravity and created world wide web and artificial life. You take too much for granted.

Dominic Decoco · Aug 13, 2018

No and if you do, that's fine too. Just don't preach to me.

subpar spatula · Aug 13, 2018

LookAtMeGo said:
Sorry I dont have a free version.
Is see your point in it being used to strong arm people and agree. I was arguing against you saying that we would be better off/further along without it.

For real though its an interesting subject. I have to buckle down and finish up my work here, im slacking too much at the moment.

I read a book called "the god part of the brain" a while back and I think thats where I got the idea that a belief in god was a necessary evolutionary thing that contributed to our advancement as a species.

We as a species advanced due to cooperation of survival and ease of existence. Religion came after in large amounts as an easy way to control others.

ninjabot · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOps said:
I get what you're saying. Strictly going by what proof is physically displayed but not discounting the other outcomes is a reasonable way to see it. I think 'Love' exists, it can't be physically embodied but it can be created or manipulated. This may be why I lean towards faith a bit.

Sure, I agree. However, do you consider faith an accurate path to the truth?

Is there anything at all that can't be taken on faith?

And what of the faith of people who believe in different religions? Does one religion become more valid than another religion because it has more people that have faith in it, or because one group is more faithful than others?

Dullahan · Aug 13, 2018

I personally do not believe in any gods.

Jombie · Aug 13, 2018

No, and we should be all the better for it.

Air · Aug 13, 2018

RoadHazard said:
That's pretty disingenuous phrasing. It's not like we know 5 things and have no idea what the other 95 things are. It's just the most of the universe is made up of one or two things that we don't yet understand.

Its not disengenuous though. We dont know how these different types of matter can interact, if they can be subdivided even further, etc. I also didnt factor in other concepts like consciousness, neurology (and/ or connectomes).

You're over estimating our progress, where im trying to give a dry look at what we have so far achieved which is a lot relative to any point in history or with any other species that we know exists.

zoukka · Aug 13, 2018

subpar spatula said:
We as a species advanced due to cooperation of survival and ease of existence. Religion came after in large amounts as an easy way to control others.

Cooperation of big groups of humans required shared beliefs, common myths and legends. Those enabled us to form larger societies than hundred or so individuals and is one of the key differences and strenghts we have over other species.

Hektor · Aug 13, 2018

No one can convince me something as beautiful as this can be created by a cosmic accident.

DJMicLuv · Aug 13, 2018

<--- I've always thought that God was a sort of gas.

Alethiometer · Aug 13, 2018

subpar spatula said:
We as a species advanced due to cooperation of survival and ease of existence. Religion came after in large amounts as an easy way to control others.

It kinda naturally evolved from tribal tradition.

"The growth of human civilisation is a story of the assembly of ever-larger units, knitted together by some version of that Make-a-Human kit. At first, children were taught what they must do to be accepted as members of the family group. Then they were taught what they must do to be accepted as members of the tribe. (Believing apparently ridiculous things was a very effective test: the naïve outsider would all too readily betray a lack of belief, or would simply have no idea what the appropriate belief was. Is it permitted to pluck a chicken before dark on Wednesday? The tribe knew, the outsider did not, and since any reasonable person would guess 'yes', the tribal priesthood could go a long way by making the accepted answer 'no'.) After that, the same kind of thing happened for the local baron's serfs, for the village, the town, the city and the nation." - Ian Stewart & Jack Cohen

Air · Aug 13, 2018

zoukka said:
It's a lot. And knowledge isn't a linear curve, it's exponential. Some millenia ago we barely knew other civilizations existed. Some centuries ago we thought the earth was a disc and the universe rotated around us. Not we have split the atom, escaped earths gravity and created world wide web and artificial life. You take too much for granted.

Not at all. But we are on a relative small rock in an ever expanding universe. We know things that relate to our situation well (and it's getting better), but we can only say we know a lot in reference to our own progress in the past. We're just learning (relative to our history) more about space and what's out there. That's a huge achievement, but shouldn't call for hubris

Doctor_Thomas · Aug 13, 2018

Worth remembering is that the "god of the gaps" is not a good counterpoint. Just because we don't understand something doesn't mean god fills in the gap until we do understand it. It just means we have questions that science, at the moment, can't answer. A god tends to create more questions than it actually answers.

Inkvoterad · Aug 13, 2018

I dunno, not really for the most part. I have however found a lot more like, comfort in my Muslim roots and faith in the latest times, especially after an event that occurred last year. I don't know if the comfort comes to a belief in a higher power or just dunno, it reminds me of family and stuff. It comes in waves i guess.

D i Z · Aug 13, 2018

Inkvoterad said:
I dunno, not really for the most part. I have however found a lot more like, comfort in my Muslim roots and faith in the latest times, especially after an event that occurred last year. I don't know if the comfort comes to a belief in a higher power or just dunno, it reminds me of family and stuff. It comes in waves i guess.

This is an approach very much like my own. The communal language if I can throw that in there.

Mona · Aug 13, 2018

Retroarnold said:
Sex feels good so we actually do it and reproduce, but why?

the species for whom sex didn't feel good never made it this far

5 million years ago there was a creature posting on cenozoicERA, "my parents didn't even want to have sex, feels like shit, so im deff. not going to" and thats the last anyone heard from him or his species

Rotkehle · Aug 13, 2018

Raised catholic but realized before my communion that this whole higher power construct doesn't made any sense.

DigitalOp · Aug 13, 2018

RoadHazard said:
Hah, what. You may not know how water works, but chemists and physicists sure do.

Well we both made opposite claims, the only thing we can do is find any reports if this information has been found.

ninjabot said:
Sure, I agree. However, do you consider faith an accurate path to the truth?

Is there anything at all that can't be taken on faith?

And what of the faith of people who believe in different religions? Does one religion become more valid than another religion because it has more people that have faith in it, or because one group is more faithful than others?

Well, the funny thing about faith is that people always attack it with logic. Faith is a feeling, a belief. It isn't logic, it comes from the heart metaphysically.

The funny thing about religion is that there are common traits that made it around the world to find some commonality. Such as killing. Death is a constant partner to life, they need each other to coexist, yet seeing something die looks inherently wrong. It still bothers us because we recognize its a loss of life, no matter how consistent death has been in this world, before and after us.

I can't really speak on the groups of religion too much because it errs on more human traits. I dont think more numbers mean more correct, but I ackowledge principles like 'Faith without works is dead' and 'God works through people' because that's true. People are able to create their outcomes and when in numbers, our outcomes are more probable. Because we ourselves exist in the physical and the faith is beyond us in the metaphysical.

Gravy Boat said:
You're just listing things we don't know. There are lots of things we do know. We don't know why gravity exists but we know enough about how it works to land rovers on a planet 30 million miles away. You're basically saying we don't know anything because we don't know the origins of physics.

But we didnt create physics. We cant see what is behind the scenes. We landed the rover, are we masters now? Or is there alot more to gravity we will know or possibly know? Our minds have limits and we have the ability to expand it. And despite this, we will possibly never know the truth. Thats not a bad thing

BAD · Aug 13, 2018

AstralTurfWarrior · Aug 13, 2018

BAD said:

I think it's actually surprisingly civil. People do have disagreements obviously, even strong ones, but people still manage to discuss without attacking each other and such.

kittens · Aug 13, 2018

I believe in a psychic after life in which all organisms share stories and experience infinitely and sometimes dip out to take a physical form again

Cokie Bear · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
But we didnt create physics. We cant see what is behind the scenes. We landed the rover, are we masters now? Or is there alot more to gravity we will know or possibly know? Our minds have limits and we have the ability to expand it. And despite this, we will possibly never know the truth. Thats not a bad thing

Again, you're just listing things we don't know. Of course there's stuff we don't know and of course that's fine, but that's not what you said. You said we know nothing when we actually know a great deal.

DigitalOp · Aug 13, 2018

Gravy Boat said:
Again, you're just listing things we don't know. Of course there's stuff we don't know and of course that's fine, but that's not what you said. You said we know nothing when we actually know a great deal.

Yes I used a metaphysical argument. I believe it to be true.

Our knowledge is based off our understanding. We use names and concepts to satisfy our sanity. We don't know how it all works 100%. There is still potential for more to be behind it. We dont supersede this world, we exist within it.

Cokie Bear · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Yes I used a metaphysical argument. I believe it to be true.

Our knowledge is based off our understanding. We use names and concepts to satisfy our sanity. We don't know how it all works 100%. There is still potential for more to be behind it. We dont supersede this world, we exist within it.

Knowledge by definition is based on understanding so I'm not sure what you mean by "our knowledge". You've completely lost me tbh, without trying to be rude.

You said we know nothing and I said that's false, I'm not sure how your above post clarifies what you meant.

zoukka · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Yes I used a metaphysical argument. I believe it to be true.

Our knowledge is based off our understanding. We use names and concepts to satisfy our sanity. We don't know how it all works 100%. There is still potential for more to be behind it. We dont supersede this world, we exist within it.

When every particle is known and every physical law unraveled, we indeed know how it all works. Supersede is a bad term here since when you know all, there is nothing to supersede anymore. Any god, force or phenomena you think is unexplained exists in this world just as we do.

DigitalOp · Aug 13, 2018

Gravy Boat said:
Knowledge by definition is based on understanding so I'm not sure what you mean by "our knowledge". You've completely lost me tbh, without trying to be rude.

You said we know nothing and I said that's false, I'm not sure how your above post clarifies what you meant.

Im not here to convince you, I was just elaborating. I basically saying we can't say we know it all 100%

zoukka said:
When every particle is known and every physical law unraveled, we indeed know how it all works. Supersede is a bad term here since when you know all, there is nothing to supersede anymore. Any god, force or phenomena you think is unexplained exists in this world just as we do.

Is every particle known? Do we have every physical law on the map? You can't say we have it all. We can't create matter out of nothing. You're really trying to say Humanity is peak existence? There is no possible way on earth you could ever confirm that. That's like the entire basis of this thread.

Deleted member 4274 · Aug 13, 2018

Nah, I believe we are our own Gods. NOT A 5%er... But I can give you today's mathematics. Let's build, people.

ninjabot · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Well, the funny thing about faith is that people always attack it with logic. Faith is a feeling, a belief. It isn't logic, it comes from the heart metaphysically.

The funny thing about religion is that there are common traits that made it around the world to find some commonality. Such as killing. Death is a constant partner to life, they need each other to coexist, yet seeing something die looks inherently wrong. It still bothers us because we recognize its a loss of life, no matter how consistent death has been in this world, before and after us.

I can't really speak on the groups of religion too much because it errs on more human traits. I dont think more numbers mean more correct, but I ackowledge principles like 'Faith without works is dead' and 'God works through people' because that's true. People are able to create their outcomes and when in numbers, our outcomes are more probable. Because we ourselves exist in the physical and the faith is beyond us in the metaphysical.

Okay but feelings do follow a form of logic. We can attribute love to chemicals in the brain. We feel love, but those feelings are deterministic. And I brought up the question of whether or not there was anything that can't be taken on faith because the answer is no. There's nothing that can't be taken on faith. Including false things. This little fact also trivializes how valid faith could be when determining the truth. For example, I could have faith that I can flap my arms and fly to the ground safely... and then I jump off of a building to prove it and then die when my arm flailing doesn't back up the claim I made and I hit the ground. In that scenario faith lead me to a lie, not the truth.

I attack faith logically because I'm a skeptic and reasonable people (not to imply that believers aren't reasonable) use skepticism to protect them from falsehoods that result in self harm or accidents.

janusff · Aug 13, 2018

Nah. There's nothing. Just the life you're living now. After that it's over.

Deleted member 6573 · Aug 13, 2018

Wackamole · Aug 13, 2018

DigitalOp said:
Is every particle known?

probably not

DigitalOp said:
Do we have every physical law on the map?

Just till this point. No need to stop searching. It's an ongoing process.

DigitalOp said:
We can't create matter out of nothing. .

nope.

DigitalOp said:
You're really trying to say Humanity is peak existence?

Eh no. That's more of a religious concept actually. God created man in his own image.. remember?
But we're here and we're curious by nature.
We can only use the most advanced tool have have right now, our brain. It's what we have to work with.

Gugi40 · Aug 13, 2018

BAD said:
I'm curious how the breakdown is on Era -

I went to a Christian school growing up and have Christian parents. The school was whitebread middle class homogeny, but nice overall.

Then I went to a diverse high school and things were so much better and more eye opening. Jesus? I ditched 'em, no regrets. Don't think I'd ever send my own kids to a school as homogenous as the one I was at when I was young

College was also a bop.

Anyway, with respect for the fact you are not here to convert others just because they expressed their beliefs to you, answer my poll.

I'm sorry, did we have the same life? You literally just told my story lol.

The Artisan · Aug 13, 2018

Mauricio_Magus said:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

this explanation makes sense, but I don't have a problem in believing in something that's eternal

DigitalOp · Aug 13, 2018

ninjabot said:
Okay but feelings do follow a form of logic. We can attribute love to chemicals in the brain. We feel love, but those feelings are deterministic. And I brought up the question of whether or not there was anything that can't be taken on faith because the answer is no. There's nothing that can't be taken on faith. Including false things. This little fact also trivializes how valid faith could be when determining the truth. For example, I could have faith that I can flap my arms and fly to the ground safely... and then I jump off of a building to prove it and then die when my arm flailing doesn't back up the claim I made and I hit the ground. In that scenario faith lead me to a lie, not the truth.

I attack faith logically because I'm a skeptic and reasonable people (not to imply that believers aren't reasonable) use skepticism to protect them from falsehoods that result in self harm or accidents.

Right, I absolutely agree with you. Like pretty much everything in life, we should take everything in moderation. I would argue that once logic fails, the only thing you have left is faith essentially. Let logic rule until it can't anymore, once that point is reached essentially only faith can replace it. No need to challenge existing and observable logic with faith.

Dongs Macabre · Aug 13, 2018

LookAtMeGo said:
Humans evolved that part of the brain for a reason. I'm just spitballing here.

The idea that anything evolves for a reason seems like a misinterpretation of how evolution works. Sometimes things just happen.

Septic · Aug 13, 2018

Retroarnold said:
Sex feels good so we actually do it and reproduce, but why? Does sex feel Amar for all animals or just humans. Do hamsters have mind blowing orgasams? Or is this pleasure just for humans?

So many questions that I'm sure Science will answer, but at the moment everything seems so planned out.

Maybe I shouldn't enter a thread like this while drunk as fuck.

Haha

MadJakeChurchill · Aug 13, 2018

I think there certainly could be something beyond our partial comprehension of reality. Whether religions or creeds have contacted this being? Doubtful. Still is nice to internalise the morals and lessons they have gained from supposed connection with the Almighty.

Been going to Catholic church for about a month now every Sunday. Community is lovely, lessons are bang-on leftism. Outside of the ritualistic parts, it's pretty awesome and soothing to be with people that are more confident in their cosmic place, even if it might not be real. The confidence and comfort has value.

If only they respected that confidence in other people's faith.

Mona · Aug 13, 2018

DJMicLuv said:
<--- I've always thought that God was a sort of gas.

thats a god of the gas argument

DigitalOp said:
You're really trying to say Humanity is peak existence?

have you seen Idris Elba?

Ryouji Gunblade · Aug 13, 2018

I believe in lower powers. Things below the quantum level.

Kinsaras · Aug 13, 2018

I use to go to church, Pentecostal. I was pretty involved with it. I went twice a week. Helped the Youth Group and other little tasks.

One day I thought I'd be a good Christian and read the bible cover to cover. That's when I started to open my eyes. Bible doesn't show an all loving God as they claim. It has directions on how to beat your slaves or your wife. Bears killing 42 kids for an insult. Pretty dark stuff.

Then if your with any church long enough you realize people act holier than thou, yet behind closed doors you learn it's all an act.

Having a family didn't help. If God loved all his sons and daughters as much as he claims to, how can he send them to hell? Having kids of my own I questioned how God could be so cruel.

Anyways, took me awhile but I'm full atheist now.

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