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Do you believe in a higher power?

  • Yes

    Votes: 403 21.9%
  • No

    Votes: 1,153 62.5%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 288 15.6%

  • Total voters
    1,844
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
Ok cool. And love is not a requisite of procreation yet it still exist.

It also exists because we're a social species, so families stay together, people take care of their children, etc... yeah. I was just explaining it in a basic level.

As I said, we can measure it and we experience it, so it's not comparable at all with some higher being with no proof at all.

The deal is, there is nothing wrong with understanding why we are the way we are, life is beautiful even if we know we are the way we are because of evolution.

No need to make up shit, basically.
 
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Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
There isn't even reality AND consciousness, they are one. And there is not such thing as good, bad, or meaning, all projections on reality.Or even existence (because that idea of existence itself is something that exists within consciousness)... does it mean anything even existed in the first place if the concept of existence itself was created inside something so utterly baffling as conscious?

I think we're done a poor job talking about consciousness. You have some who link it just to sentient lifeforms, unintentionally giving it ideas of vitalism, some applying that sentient idea of consciousness as a kind of super consciousness or innate consciousness, so everything is like sentience, and some even refer to consciousness as innate processes resonating with other processings, permeating the universe.

I'm sure if we asked people in this thread to define consciousness, you're not going to see everyone define it in one way. Worse still, many of us may think there's a "my consciousness" and this gets us back into all the self bullshittery.
 

ninjabot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
734
I think the universe, our planet, and the things in it are too beautiful to just be here by happenstance.

This would be the "Argument from Incredulity" fallacy.

Basically saying that you can't imagine how existence could be if a creator didn't create it, therefore that's a good reason to believe a creator did it. I dunno if you care about fallacies or whatnot. Just pointing out the technical term in case you never heard of it.
 

D i Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,085
Where X marks the spot.
I read all your responses. Not once did you provide an answer.
You know what empathic real humane people would do in a situation like that? They would say "okay, okay, maybe i went a little overboard with that, i'm sorry." Now it just seems your even more vain than i imagined. Can't even be decent enough to provide people with an honest answer or reason for calling them self centered.

Have fun living in your bubble.

Ok.
 

AliceAmber

Drive-in Mutant
Administrator
May 2, 2018
6,669
I was a pretty hardcore atheist when it was right for me, and before then was raised Christian. Lately I've been starting something completely new, and its a good fit so far.
 

TCi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
661
No. Not even as a kid. Just looked at it as fairy tales even then. I am fine with people having beliefs, just as long as they are not forcing it on to others. Even their own kids. People make their own choices.
 

LookAtMeGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,136
a parallel universe
Does Skynet count ? If not, it's a no.
We should program the AI to think of us as gods.

I wonder if when we are long and gone and the AI has taken over, if they will remember us as their makers or if they will suppress our history and we will be forgotten. Will they explore the stars looking for who created them when we were right here the whole time? Will there be religious machine wars fought between the Muskians and Kurzweilians? Will the machines eventually discover god and learn the truth of their origins?
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,072
You see, the argument you've made makes more sense in a world that, in some eastern disciplines, is referred to as "nondual". The problem with dualistic thinking -- thinking there's an ego in the skin, a barrier between me and you, a cosmic king, etc -- all depend upon the idea of division to the point that everything stands alone, that everything is fixed, that everything is static. Your example highlights the illusoriness of that quite well: where is the fixed self in an unfixed form? There's no "there" there. You might be arguing that it means there IS a "there" there, but that's because you may be arguing for an unchanging special snowflake process.

Now, what may remain is consciousness without a self, sometimes called "not-self", an awareness of the contents and what it can objectify, but itself is not the contents. Even one of the responses to this remark with the "nervous system" is still defining a self to a part of the body; it's still linking a "me" to a thing. There's no you in any conceivable way that we have identified it to be in thoughts, which is to say there's no "thing" that is truly me, for the me is always in ideas, in images, in concepts.

How can you save an image? What concept truly lives outside of mind? If we can say that there's an awareness that exists prior to the ego, and prior to thoughts that arises in awareness, you're more "that" than anything else, but even describing it this way is to say you're once again a thing or a particular feature or particular process, and none of that is true.


I have NEVER been less prepared to respond to something, anything in my entire life. And for that I thank you. Sincerely. And while I am familiar with the concepts and even studied with some monks...
 

Kyle Cross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,413
No, I don't believe fairy tales are real. However if believing in nonsense makes your life better then do it. Life is hard, put power in whatever helps you live it. Just don't use it as an excuse to make other lives worse.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,521
I don't and I honestly don't know if I ever did. I was raised Christian but we barely went to church when I was a kid. We'd mostly only go when we'd visit my Grandparents and I went to a relatively tame Jesus camp a couple of Summers (it was like having Sunday school for a month just with a bigger emphasis on activities). Even as a kid I saw the flaws in the Bible stories I'd hear and I don't think I ever really bought in. I realized that people tended to believe in what they were brought up in. I kept thinking "If I was born on a desert island with no exposure to Christianity, could I still go to Heaven? If not, how is that fair? If so, why is following all these rules so important? If following a false God keeps you from going to Heaven, is it fair to people who have their own Gods and never learned of Christianity? Is it fair to people who do know but were indoctrinated in to a different religion by their parents and taught that they were just as right about their beliefs? What about ALL the people that lived before Christianity and Judaism?" All that kept me from really buying in to the concept. It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

So for a while I became what I'd call "spiritual" in that maybe there was a God but it was more of a nebulous creator thing that could have been some ancient space alien that created the universe and, at least for the most part, left it to it's own devices without ever directly interacting with it again. I used to "believe" in reincarnation too. But then I realized that that's just what I wanted to believe. I loved the idea that life would continue and you'd experience new things after death and maybe even recall them one day. That everything was set in motion and that even if there wasn't a plan, there was something greater out there. But there's just no evidence for any of it and I realized I was making up stories to fill in the unanswered and make me feel better about life and death just like a bunch of people likely did when they came up with their own God(s) thousands of years ago.
 

ninjabot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
734
No hostility felt from your responses, just for the record. A core part of faith is giving over, at least in a lot of faiths. That is all that the dissolving of the self-centered perspective is about. Ones own ego vs following the principles set out before you. It's like 101 of getting out of your own head and attaching to the communal good. Even me saying this in our conversational tones is going to drop a hammer down from the anti-religious because they're going to find someway for it to be judgmental. I can't do much about that. I'm not pushing anything here. Just standing my ground.

Sorry, but you weren't standing any ground, you were drawing a line in the sand and daring people to come at you. You initiated the confilct by generalizing an entire subset of people. You don't get to play victim when you're the instigator. And then when asked to clarify, you made it out like everyone else were incapable of comprehending such an easy to grasp concept to further place you a tier above everyone else you were speaking to.

No, no one's jumping on you for being religious (or whatever it is you're deliberately avoiding owning up to). We're jumping on you for picking a fight.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,276
Well your concepts of beaufy and your senses are both evolved via natural selection.

Yet, if you disagree with my concept of beauty, you still exist with your own perception of the concept.

I wasn't specifically chosen alone to pass the selection barrier, we all were. We are all our own forces of reality imposing our subconscious will upon each other. I don't think that type of energy came from nowhere.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,851
I think the universe, our planet, and the things in it are too beautiful to just be here by happenstance.

To be fair, the fact that i believe those things did indeed end up here by "happenstance" like you said only makes them even more beautiful.

The beauty of randomness in a way. I'm in awe that something as complex as a human being appeared through sheer luck after billions of billions of years of random events and evolution of what was at first a friggin bacteria. It's just mind-blowing.

Thinking that some otherwordly being created us feels kinda "cheap" to me. "Magic !". Meh...
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
Ah, the Special pleading fallacy, a classic.

I never got that God needs to be the eternal.

If the universe is better characterized as a self-shaping organism or system, and this works much easier than the idea of an outsider making disconnected things, wouldn't the "innate" energy of the universe be "God"? Not as a creator of creation, but the significance and power of creation itself.

Why must God be a think, a special unit, added to the recipe? I mean, we argue against the existence of that unit, but more importantly can see a world where things link without the need of outsiders, be it of God or even in the mind. No potter making the world from a cosmic perspective, and no me, no doer of deeds, getting things done. Perhaps God comes from the false view we have of ourselves as additional agents to life? If we think we're extra, we add "the extra" to keep this idea of "me" around.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,932
Well, you did post this. After i asked that question, but okay. Let's read through this:
No hostility felt from your responses, just for the record. A core part of faith is giving over, at least in a lot of faiths. That is all that the dissolving of the self-centered perspective is about. Ones own ego vs following the principles set out before you. It's like 101 of getting out of your own head and attaching to the communal good. Even me saying this in our conversational tones is going to drop a hammer down from the anti-religious because they're going to find someway for it to be judgmental. I can't do much about that. I'm not pushing anything here. Just standing my ground.

Edit: My conversational tones could use some work. For sure I agree with that. But I meant what I said as it pertains to my views on my conduct.
So religious people give some of their ego over to religion. Okay, that's at least something i can think about.
But do you understand that the WAY you wrote this down, it implied that all non religious people are self centered? Why not answer this straight away? I still think it was meant a bit in that way, but only because you took so long to answer any question on it.
Acting like others were the agressors was a bit snowflaky to me, since you were the first person to seemingly accuse others.

Anyway....
I think you're right in that regard. You give a piece of your own choice and life to religion and accept a certain predestination.
An atheist will think this is the only life he has and will give meaning to his own life / pursuit of happiness.
I see my insignificance in the bigger picture as freeing. I don't like a predestined concept at all. I don't like the idea of "the One" either.
I want to be able to choose. In that regard i might seem more self centered. I see it as more in control of my own life.
I won't deny that some of my actions in life are self centered. In the end, i'm the one responsible for the quality of my life. But that does not mean i'm only thinking about myself. I'm mostly a parent/ father, if anything. And i live by a lot of basic rules that you probably live by too. And that makes sense, since i believe these rules were man-made for logical reasons.

If god is real then god is eternal
Yeah something like that. Un-head-wrappable stuff in any case.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I wasn't specifically chosen alone to pass the selection barrier, we all were. We are all our own forces of reality imposing our subconscious will upon each other. I don't think that type of energy came from nowhere.

Subconscious is also a by-product of an evolved enough organism. Like one meteor or one black hole too close and we wouldn't exist. Homo Sapien wouldn't have been a concept. It's all chaos.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
I never got that God needs to be the eternal.

If the universe is better characterized as a self-shaping organism or system, and this works much easier than the idea of an outsider making disconnected things, wouldn't the "innate" energy of the universe be "God"? Not as a creator of creation, but the significance and power of creation itself.

Why must God be a think, a special unit, added to the recipe? I mean, we argue against the existence of that unit, but more importantly can see a world where things link without the need of outsiders, be it of God or even in the mind. No potter making the world from a cosmic perspective, and no me, no doer of deeds, getting things done. Perhaps God comes from the false view we have of ourselves as additional agents to life? If we think we're extra, we add "the extra" to keep this idea of "me" around.

I usually ask, how do you know?

Of course they have no idea why, it's just BS like usual. And I agree, why couldn't this god just... be super powerful or whatever and be finite as well?
 

Conciliator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,123
No, sorry, there's just no evidence that there's any conscious entity with power or control over the universe. There's just no indication it works that way at all, all the way from electrons and microbes to galaxies and black holes. There is no guide, there is no cause, it's up to us to do what we will with our consciousness and our world and our universe.

There are I think though paths to spirituality and connectivity to other life and the universe, just not through an all-knowing space fascist
 

Deleted member 9838

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,773
What is the truest thing you all know about your existence? What is the absolute truest thing you can think of and what is it based on?
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
I don't really like the phrasing of the question because 1) obviously there are powers greater than us, but it doesn't mean those powers have a mind or whatever other anthropomorphism we like to attach and 2) it's sort of contradictory to a lot of ideas of God as prime mover, something more fundamental, rather than overarching.

Anyway, short answer "no." I'm agnostic when it comes to ideas like a consciousness greater than our own, or the idea that we might be a connected part of something greater, and I believe that the universe itself is pretty awe-inspiring, but I don't buy into the idea that there's something apart from this universe that watches over and interferes with it, and certainly not in the idea of "God," which is by definition kind of a personification of all these things; seeing faces in clouds at best.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
It's a no from me.

I can't get my head around why anyone would believe in 'god'

It's actually pretty easy to see why people would believe in a God.

- One sees the world as alien, disconnected, standalone
- Creates an ego that exists separately from the body; there's the "I" that's the "real me" in the head, but then there's a "me" that dangles, like a carcass
- Believes in a cosmic king specifically because it has plans to save that conceptual "I"

The problem starts with the belief in a self. After all, for people to believe in God they're promised their most precious ideas will be saved; their ideas of themselves, of people, of things. The problem from the very start was thinking in this very way.

I've said it elsewhere, but dualistic thinking is the largest illusion plaguing people. Even people rejecting the idea of God may still believe that there's a "me" carried between experiences unchanging, or even worse nonsense like free will.
 

KayonXaikyre

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,984
I don't believe in religion. I think it's just a means of extrinsic control. I do however believe the concept of God can exist, but more or less I'd think of it as something advanced enough to be able to create universes and life. That is to say that I think that given infinite time, if a species managed to life long enough and continued to innovate and found ways to do so using the resources of the entire universe, than they could probably be the near equivalent to what we think of God as. I feel like if we went back into the early past with what we have right now, the people back then would think we were God too. I think we're so advanced now though (relative to the other stuff on our own planet) that the concept of God would have to be something so ridiculous that it makes what we do right now on Earth seem simple by comparison. So they would have to be able to create planets and shit. So yeah, I believe in that concept of God.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
There's more. The need to explain the unknown is likely the source of animalistic beliefs and deities.
There are a lot of human conflicts that God solves, but the need to explain isn't really one of them. God creates more questions about the universe and how it works than it answers.

A lot of it is about needing to assign a kind of purpose to existence and to our lives. That belief can be motivating and I think it's been biologically bred into us as a result.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,072
I ask this.


Could man program a computer to be self aware but not give it the means to understand that it is a computer? Either now or in 500 years?


I say yes. There has always been levels of understanding that have been out of our reach yet those ideas still existed long before we as a species were prepared to ever grasp the basics. How come then, in the infinite vastness of 10billion years of existence could this not have taken place once? I mean DAMN, somebody has to win the Powerball once right?
 
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Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
See, we know for a fact approximately when and where Yahweh (God/Allah) was inventeted. He originally was a weather god (and had a wife) in a polytheist belief system with many other gods ~2500 years ago, as was common at the time (archeological proof exists). The Tanakh/Old Testament was written and modified again and again over the course of several centuries, meaning it can't be the word of any god (again, we have archeological proof). One more example: Jesus had several siblings, which are even mentioned in the new Testament, meaning Maria certainly was no eternal virgin, as the Catholic church teaches. It's right there in the scripture itself.
So, after knowing this, a rational human being should understand it's all made up and stop believing. But alas, here we are.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
There are a lot of human conflicts that God solves, but the need to explain isn't really one of them. God creates more questions about the universe and how it works than it answers.

A lot of it is about needing to assign a kind of purpose to existence and to our lives. That belief can be motivating and I think it's been biologically bred into us as a result.

I disagree, the belief into most religious texts explains the whole infinite universe with one book.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,276
This would be the "Argument from Incredulity" fallacy.

Basically saying that you can't imagine how existence could be if a creator didn't create it, therefore that's a good reason to believe a creator did it. I dunno if you care about fallacies or whatnot. Just pointing out the technical term in case you never heard of it.

Im intrigued on why such a concept would be considered a fallacy however. IMO Man claiming any certainty within determining such a truth would be considered arrogance. All of this is above us in terms of complexity and certainty. I dont feel my philosophy betrays my core agnostic beliefs. I don' t know and quite possibly ever know. I just choose to lean towards the side of a greater force, essentially Spirituality

To be fair, the fact that i believe those things did indeed end up here by "happenstance" like you said only makes them even more beautiful.

The beauty of randomness in a way. I'm in awe that something as complex as a human being appeared through sheer luck after billions of billions of years of random events and evolution of what was at first a friggin bacteria. It's just mind-blowing.

Thinking that some otherwordly being created us feels kinda "cheap" to me. "Magic !". Meh...

Cheap? How so? I see it as expensive. A Man and a Woman work together to create a new life energy. Its the greatest mystery to our world. We scientifically know how the process happens, but actually how is this happening? We know that is the only way to create a human life. Our reality is comprised of so many universes, from our minds, to our bodies, to the ocean, to space. Its effortlessly complex and beyond our scope.

Subconscious is also a by-product of an evolved enough organism. Like one meteor or one black hole too close and we wouldn't exist. Homo Sapien wouldn't have been a concept. It's all chaos.

Yeah, there is a chaotic factor at nature, but I feel our Humanity allows us to understand whatever basic patterns we can comprehend. We also contribute to that same chaos and we're able to interact and react to an extent. We're the "thinking" animal.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,378
I have NEVER been less prepared to respond to something, anything in my entire life. And for that I thank you. Sincerely. And while I am familiar with the concepts and even studied with some monks...

If we can see what we think we are is largely an illusion, we start to see the games we made to keep it "alive" as wasteful and destructive.

How many kill in the name of God? All for what, to save an image of themselves that only exists in their brains? What would happen if these people realized that their hardest beliefs about their images were, in fact, the most violent aspects of their lives?

Let me put this in a more scientific way, if parts of the left brain that we believe are the processes where a self forms -- it forms out of an evolutionary survival mechanism where one bit focuses on "self and other", and the other "self and time" -- can be turned off, shouldn't this be all the proof we need that because something exists in their disabling that we're not this extra, outside self with free will? When monks or others have experiences of a "timeless, open space" this isn't hippie dippie bullshit, but likely the negation of mechanisms.

Further, if we say this process of self-formation is there to navigate us like a troubleshooter, isn't there a problem saying we're ONLY that? Is Windows 10 ONLY your firewall or antivirus program?
 

Dr. Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,841
Netherlands
No.

In a sense, I kinda wish that I did. The thought of my own mortality is eating me up inside and can drive me crazy for weeks. When I look at my inlaws being happy clappy in their fantasy world of things having purpose, I get mad jealous.

There's just no way in my mind in which it would make sense to believe it, though, so I'm cursed to deal with it. Can't deal.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
I disagree, the belief into most religious texts explains the whole infinite universe with one book.
Exccept not, because now I have to explain God. And if I'm using the rationalization that God is needed to explain the universe by virtue of how vast and complex the universe is, now I'm left with an EVEN MORE vast, complex, and perfect thing to explain? Do I think invent Super God? And is God part of the universe or outside of it? If it's the latter, now I have to explain the Super Universe.

For every answer provide by the existence of a God, you raise two more. Answers are supposed to simplify these things, not complicate them.
 

Ralemont

Member
Jan 3, 2018
4,508
I think that if there is a higher power, then certainly no anthropomorphized God from our religions has quite gotten him/her/it right. Rather it's some 4th dimensional being truly beyond our reckoning as we are to ants.
 

Emergency & I

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,634
I subscribe to the idea that something or someone is responsible for this. I don't believe we have any concept of who that is or how they came to be but I think we'll understand the essence of our own existence someday without ever knowing what's behind the curtain.

That's my hope anyway.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,004
Im intrigued on why such a concept would be considered a fallacy however. IMO Man claiming any certainty within determining such a truth would be considered arrogance. All of this is above us in terms of complexity and certainty. I dont feel my philosophy betrays my core agnostic beliefs. I don' t know and quite possibly ever know. I just choose to lean towards the side of a greater force, essentially Spirituality

I mean, what you said is the textbook definition of the Argument of Incredulity.

You don't understand how it could have happened so you find it too incredible when science already has answers or the answer is "we don't know yet", therefore some higher being.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Exccept not, because now I have to explain God. And if I'm using the rationalization that God is needed to explain the universe by virtue of how vast and complex the universe is, now I'm left with an EVEN MORE vast, complex, and perfect thing to explain? Do I think invent Super God? And is God part of the universe or outside of it? If it's the latter, now I have to explain the Super Universe.

For every answer provide by the existence of a God, you raise two more. Answers are supposed to simplify these things, not complicate them.

But here you are not really believing in the text. The text is perfect and complete for a believer, there is nothing missing from it. Your thirst for knowledge will lead you to abandon that particular truth.
 

D i Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,085
Where X marks the spot.
Well, you did post this. After i asked that question, but okay. Let's read through this:

So religious people give some of their ego over to religion. Okay, that's at least something i can think about.
But do you understand that the WAY you wrote this down, it implied that all non religious people are self centered? Why not answer this straight away? I still think it was meant a bit in that way, but only because you took so long to answer any question on it.
Acting like others were the agressors was a bit snowflaky to me, since you were the first person to seemingly accuse others.

Anyway....
I think you're right in that regard. You give a piece of your own choice and life to religion and accept a certain predestination.
An atheist will think this is the only life he has and will give meaning to his own life / pursuit of happiness.
I see my insignificance in the bigger picture as freeing. I don't like a predestined concept at all. I don't like the idea of "the One" either.
I want to be able to choose. In that regard i might seem more self centered. I see it as more in control of my own life.
I won't deny that some of my actions in life are self centered. In the end, i'm the one responsible for the quality of my life. But that does not mean i'm only thinking about myself. I'm mostly a parent/ father, if anything. And i live by a lot of basic rules that you probably live by too. And that makes sense, since i believe these rules were man-made for logical reasons.


Yeah something like that. Un-head-wrappable stuff in any case.

OK. So you can see what I've been saying (even through my poor presentation) about it being a personal outlook. Not an indictment on the character of random people on random forums who I will never know. The stretch to "other" people that just look at a rule book when we all just live by the same standards (sometimes) is nuts. My first comment was absolutely an honest assessment of what I lived to get right. I'm still not there, but hey. Nobody is interested in that story though, and that's the way some people like it. I guarantee that these comments that are calling me out of my socks today would be grateful for me practicing what I believe tomorrow.
Anyway, thanks for actually taking a minute to engage.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
But here you are not really believing in the text. The text is perfect and complete for a believer, there is nothing missing from it. Your thirst for knowledge will lead you to abandon that particular truth.
Because religion isn't about answering questions, it's about making you feel bad for asking them in the first place.
 

Juj

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
504
No, and of all the monotheistic gods I would say the Jewish and Islamic ones are the biggest assholes btw, fuck them. Jesus is cool - as far as I know. That is all.