What specifically do you not like about Eliza and how do you think you can improve the design?
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Why women criticise sexualised character designs (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
- Status
Sorry, I cut your post as it was just too big to quote in full.
I am a guy and I admit I like to watch at good looking women, but I just can't agree more with you on this (and also all the other topics about sexualization and sexism in this thread). This seems to be something super Japanese as apparently all girls/women in Japanese games need to wear skirts and in 80% of the times with a "gap" to look at their thighs. Of course in Japan school girls wear skirts, but in RL they usually don't look sexy in it and they aren't that short by default. Some make them shorter on purpose, though.
It's really quite boring by now and I am usually looking first for women in pants in Japanese games as it is so rare. Actually Claire in Tales of Cold Steel is first introduced in her military uniform:
While this still emphasizes her bust quite a lot it's otherwise a really cool design and she doesn't look any less good by wearing pants instead of a skirt.
While Persona 5 definitely has its own flaws in some of its designs it also has a lot of fantastic clothing designs either with actual pants or skirts that you could image people would actually wear in real life.
I wish there were more female anime characters with clothing like that.
Last edited:
In my opinion, the problematic elements always detract. One hears a lot of comments like "they'd be so good if only.....[ ]" or the like. For me, I am less likely to give a problematic media enough of my time to experience the gooder bits.
Probably all of them, but the ones I've seen recently are the twitter updates thread and the impressions thread.
Is this going to help you personally to improve at designing things? Not sure if my attitude toward one fighting game character is particularly important for the greater discussion.
We need more games with sexyboys. Butlers in particular. With nice collar bones to be particularly particular.
I don't really expect both male and female fanservice to be cohesive in a single game, since, like most media, they tend to lean more toward certain demographics. It's hard to hit both in an equal way, because what constitutes fanservice for those demographics isn't necessarily equivalent.
If someone wants to make a game with jiggly boobs in it, go for it, cool, they've chosen their demographic. Not my kind of thing, but I have no problem with that demographic being appealed to. It's a large, proven demo. People like things they find sexy and it's easily marketable. Makes them money.
I guess the straight equivalent with guys would be muscular dudes with jiggly junk? Wouldn't really be a fan of that either, but there should be more of it. Probably a smaller percentage of the whole of the potential target demo, compared to boob dudes. It's a fair bit harder to pin down what people want out of guyservice. Personally, emotionally-based fanservice is where it's at.
If someone wants to make a game with lithe guys running around in nice clothes, staring each other down, beating the crap out of each other, becoming friends, then maybe becoming something more, that would be just as cool. Cooler even, there's not enough of that kind of fan service. Much smaller demographic though, and I find other media is much better for this kind of thing anyway. Yakuza comes close, but not quite.
I guess I'm just saying everyone deserves dumb fanservice, as long as it's not some legitimately illegal thing. More people should be catered to. The world needs more fanservice.
I don't really expect both male and female fanservice to be cohesive in a single game, since, like most media, they tend to lean more toward certain demographics. It's hard to hit both in an equal way, because what constitutes fanservice for those demographics isn't necessarily equivalent.
If someone wants to make a game with jiggly boobs in it, go for it, cool, they've chosen their demographic. Not my kind of thing, but I have no problem with that demographic being appealed to. It's a large, proven demo. People like things they find sexy and it's easily marketable. Makes them money.
I guess the straight equivalent with guys would be muscular dudes with jiggly junk? Wouldn't really be a fan of that either, but there should be more of it. Probably a smaller percentage of the whole of the potential target demo, compared to boob dudes. It's a fair bit harder to pin down what people want out of guyservice. Personally, emotionally-based fanservice is where it's at.
If someone wants to make a game with lithe guys running around in nice clothes, staring each other down, beating the crap out of each other, becoming friends, then maybe becoming something more, that would be just as cool. Cooler even, there's not enough of that kind of fan service. Much smaller demographic though, and I find other media is much better for this kind of thing anyway. Yakuza comes close, but not quite.
I guess I'm just saying everyone deserves dumb fanservice, as long as it's not some legitimately illegal thing. More people should be catered to. The world needs more fanservice.
I disagree, if a design is exceptional Every element will come together, even if they are offensive to some.
The Punch Out designs for example are very racially caracitured, but you'd be crazy to say that does aren't iconic, masterfully designed characters (like King Hippo, Glass Joe,Soda Popinski).
So to bring it back to sexualization, Guilty Gear has many sexualized characters like I-No, but they adhere to the setting and tone of the game, that being heavy metal meets Shonen anime. The design fits like a glove with Guilty Gears crazy world.
I feel that people should criticize designs that feel misplaced within the games tone (like Quiet in MGSV) rather than just criticizing sexualization as a whole, especially when it isn't finally incongruent with the game.
This thread looks like people are going to criticize sexualization as a whole.
Are you arguing that the thread should not exist?
Nah, but I always feel you can humor an idea without accepting it, so I always encourage people to look at that these kinds of designs also from an illustrative lens rather than just from a moral lens sometimes, since it can add more to the discussion.
I don't expect every person coming into this thread to view it like that, but it can add another layer to discussion (instead of just coming in the thread and bemoaning how women wanna take away titties or whatever).
Many people are not in total opposition to sexual pandering. I myself just don't think it's automatically a good fit for all games (it's not a realistic game, therefore softcore porn!), I don't like how some series or even genres are getting increasingly infested by it, I don't like how it's so insanely one sided (Japanese developers are often pervy middle aged men that want to put their fetishes in their games, they admit as much, lol), and I don't like how it's something you can't criticize.
You can criticize graphics, gameplay, platform choices, monetisation, soundtrack, length - just about anything, but leave the animu tits alone!
You can criticize graphics, gameplay, platform choices, monetisation, soundtrack, length - just about anything, but leave the animu tits alone!
It would help if so many games (especially Japanese ones) weren't so damned juvenile in terms of presentation (and, often, tone, too). More often than not, the sexualization doesn't have any meaning. There's no subtext to it. It's just there. Few games have anything close to the maturity or nuance required to approach issues of sexuality. They want to be accepted as art, yet they're still pandering to twelve-year-old boys...
This is the thing that gets me a bit annoyed as well. With sexualization, it's always, "well, I don't care for it, but it's the artist's vision and who are we to say what they can and can't put in their creation." But if I start a thread right now about something like Dead Rising taking out the over-arching timer (a change people didn't like at all), I bet I'll get a million replies calling out that decision. Not a one will talk about how it was Capcom's artistic vision to get rid of the timers.
I guess it depends on what games you play.
I mostly play fighting games, and for the most part fighting games aren't trying to say anything important, their subtext comes from gameplay and aesthetic.
As for your art comment, yeah video games are an art form, like animation or graphic novels, so they don't need to be accepted as an art form, they already are one.
They're not trying to be accepted as art. Many development circles don't see games as "art." Hideo Kojima is even on record saying video games are not art. On the Japanese side in particular, they make the distinction that video games are not art, they are entertainment or interactive entertainment.
The whole "video games are art" thing is more of a gamer's pet issue than an issue in the minds of video game developers (or Japanese developers, anyway).
it is completely okay if you dont think discussing things in a thread wont solve anything NOT to actually participate in said thread, you know?
other participants seem to have found at least an outlet to voice their opinions.
I've been reading this entire thread, but kind of holding off on replying. Didn't want to be another guy that didn't get it. Seems like this thread has enough of those. But... I feel like I do get it, at least in part. Some things that annoyed me has been put into words in this thread and I'm grateful for that.
Basically, the Saving Private Ryan, except one character is in a full clown outfit comment way back on page 4. Because that's really want these misplaced underwear outfits in an otherwise believable world boil down to. They're clown suits. Telling everyone that this doesn't matter and is deliberately stupid now. I'm more likely to groan than find it interesting at this point. There's a time and a place for wearing a bikini. In the middle of a war zone, be it with guns or swords or any kind of weapon that exposed flesh would do poorly against, is definitely not one of them.
And yet... it happens so often that it not happening is also something I've started to notice. The background bikini warrior radiation is infecting those games that actually don't do that because not doing it is noteworthy. I shouldn't have to feel pleasantly surprised when a game had the option to be pervy against the female characters and didn't take it. But I do. And that in itself annoys me. Because it highlights just how common it is. Makes me wonder how long it took me to notice now.
So thank you for this thread. It's certainly put words to some of my own annoyances with this whole thing. I probably will never get it completely, but the whole trouble with sexualised character designs does seem a bit clearer to me now.
Basically, the Saving Private Ryan, except one character is in a full clown outfit comment way back on page 4. Because that's really want these misplaced underwear outfits in an otherwise believable world boil down to. They're clown suits. Telling everyone that this doesn't matter and is deliberately stupid now. I'm more likely to groan than find it interesting at this point. There's a time and a place for wearing a bikini. In the middle of a war zone, be it with guns or swords or any kind of weapon that exposed flesh would do poorly against, is definitely not one of them.
And yet... it happens so often that it not happening is also something I've started to notice. The background bikini warrior radiation is infecting those games that actually don't do that because not doing it is noteworthy. I shouldn't have to feel pleasantly surprised when a game had the option to be pervy against the female characters and didn't take it. But I do. And that in itself annoys me. Because it highlights just how common it is. Makes me wonder how long it took me to notice now.
So thank you for this thread. It's certainly put words to some of my own annoyances with this whole thing. I probably will never get it completely, but the whole trouble with sexualised character designs does seem a bit clearer to me now.
I don't agree with this.
Not in the way fanservice is commonly presented in games, anyway. Because, frankly, I find it incredibly stupid either way. I don't want Nathan Drake or Solid Snake or whoever to run around in short shorts, even if it'd be "hot". It would immediately take me out of the game and make me roll my eyes. Hell, MGS3 has some female fanservice with Snake having a few shirtless scenes, and even a sex scene in the ending -- and that's fine, it fit the story. If you played Snake the whole game in boxer briefs, it might be "eye candy" but it'd be so juvenile and dumb, I sure don't want that, and I doubt many people would. Likewise, in a game like Fire Emblem, I wouldn't want all the dudes to start wearing "sexy", out of place outfits, because... it looks stupid and undermines the characters and/or the tone of the game. If by "more equal fanservice" you mean more scenes with hot dudes and ladies that actually make sense in the story, and isn't pathetically juvenile, then uh, sure, could be enjoyable I guess, but it's so rare, the MGS3 example is the only one that comes to mind. xD
I wish there would be more female anime characters with clothing like that.
This image in particular really speaks to me cause it's not a female design that's all covered up or anything but at the same time not being dumb and fanservicey. She's stylish in appearance while not being objectified. That's really what we're wanting here.
I've seen this post about every year on about 50 different forums,
The plural of anecdote is not data. I'd say about half my friend are women and they almost all play games. One of them has a Nintendo tattoo on her arm. Another literally named her kid after a Final Fantasy character. Dudefriends are about the same rate. So what? Shit, I haven't really touched any video game for the past month and a half, another one of my women friends just finished her marathon re-run of FF8 and is starting her FF9 run tomorrow, and before that she re-ran OoT on her N64.
The vast majority of both genders are playing on mobile. Not only are mobile/phone games real games, mobile itself is the largest market between Mobile, PC, and Console. You may have noticed that everyone has a smartphone now. They are the largest hardware install base in the billions. That's with a B. I don't think a single console has managed to get even close to half of that. The idea that "this type of game" is not a real game has always been offered up as a way to try exclude women as gamers. Today it was mobile games. Previously it was because it was "browser games". Before that it was.. you see the point. Women are a major part of gaming, and most gamers now do not play on PC or console. It's time for male gamers to accept gaming is popular, and everyone is participating in it, and even then it can still be improved.
Sounds like self-selection to me.
Oh, this old chestnut. "The women that buy games are buying it for a man". Not only is it sexist, it ignores that plenty of men don't play video games but buy video games for their kids. How many kids are going to have a job to buy a game vs their parents? Think about it.
Actually women were the primary programmers and involved in the earliest games. Then the arbitrary genderization of computer science in the mid 80s started an effort to push them out and exclude them. This was amplified by PCs and game consoles no longer being in the appliance section, because to be in the toy aisle back then you had to be a girls toy or a boys toy, and Nintendo chose the boys' aisle. Fun fact: most stores no longer use this mechanism because it arbitrarily limits their sales. Fun fact: men used to think programming was a woman's job. Then they came back and started pushing them out once they saw the money in it, and that's not an exaggeration, this has been the story for a lot of women-dominated fields.
"It's this way because it is" is not an honest take of the situation and only serves to reaffirm the status quo. You have to admit there were outside forces that pushed women out of games, out of computer science, and out of technology, arbitrarily. Solely based on gender. Women that weren't pushed away still have to deal with sexism and bullshit solely for deciding to re-enter the world that used to be almost all theirs. A guy recently tried to tell one of my womenfriends that a video game character was a good example of women in games, and he couldn't even spell her name right. How many times have women been told they are fake because they mispronounce a FF character's name? This dude couldn't get a 4-letter character's name right. He will never be called fake because he did that. And despite all of this, women are roughly half the game market. There have been situations where a publisher has outright known a game had a majority of female customers - the one I'm talking about had a 76% female userbase, but the publisher would only do ad buys in male-oriented campaigns because it was the 'safe' money spend because that's what they had done the last year, the year before, etc. Males get advertised to in 2017 because they got arbitrarily chosen as the gender in 19__ for computer games and it's been a sequence of "keep your job safe and your decisions safer" since then.
It's even worse as pubs/execs will not only push a female character to be changed to male in a game, they'll also often combine it with changing the character to white, so it's a double whammy if you're a minority woman - even though you're spending lots of money on game, racism and sexism push to ignore you.
You can only be surprised if you aren't aware of the reality surrounding it. Women have been arbitrarily pushed away from tech and videogames for a long time now. The preference of games has nothing innate to do with gender, but is entirely based around.. ads and marketing. Know why the industry, and games, were majority male for a long time? Because that's what the ads were sold to. They -used- women to sell games to boys and men instead of just selling to both, because they're fucking lazy and because the gift fuckbasket that is society has both latent and overt methods of sexism and hate for women. They arbitrarily limited their own sales to both genders to squeeze 100 more copies out of one.
Because women are arbitrarily, with no reason, pushed away from tech. From games. From anything 'creative', because 'women don't do that'. Women are harassed for being good at math, for being in creative fields, for anything that men feel is a threat to their own job. A woman applying for a job, in the male society's mind, is taking a job away from another man. If you lose a job to another man, then you just weren't man enough to beat the other man. If a woman takes your job, she slept with someone or is 'trying to show off' or 50 other reasons obtuse fucks will give or whatever. There is literally nothing at all , innate to gender, that makes one prefer or disprefer working in games or tech. Computers and programming used to be a 90%+ female. The word 'computer' was a term first used to describe a woman, not an IBM desktop.
There's also another thing: women in games and tech will often let people assume they are a man to just avert harassment. I will repeat this verified post from The Other Place from a developer:
So say you're a woman. You managed to get past society's gauntlets, proving grounds, methods, harassment vocally, physically, sexually, and you finally want to make a game. Oh great, now you have a group of insecure men online that will find you, stalk you, harass you, solely because you're a woman in video games 'changing' gaming from male oriented to general-consumer oriented, and they can no longer fit their hobby in their back pocket so ATTACK! because they're changing your vidjagames and now you have to actually treat other women as fellow people in the field.
Women will often let people assume they are a man online just to avoid harassment. Same reason a lot of women will not chat in public game chat with their voice. Because it's instant harassment if you try to talk. And before we get "well dudes, when i'm hangin' with mah lady, i don't see all this harassment and whatnot" comment from anyone, this is because men and boys will specifically wait until a woman is alone and a dude is not around to harass them.
It's a slow change but it's coming. See above for even more reasons: even when women show up to buy, publishers will stay male oriented because it's the old reliable faucet to drink from. Hell, it's been done to age groups, even on male oriented platforms. For example, Nintendo and publishers knew the GameCube had a majority of owners 21 or older. But they released their M games on Xbox and kid games on GameCube because those were the safe, sure "nobody has ever lost their job releasing kid games on Nintendo" decision, and Xbox was the "safe" Mature platform, even though tons of kids owned Xboxes. A lot of life and the industry in general, despite how many do not want to accept it, is literally the way it is because an executive decided it is. It has nothing innate to do with gender, often ignores actual facts, and has the bonus factor of actual groups of people out there that have forced women developers from their own homes.
A guy even tried to go to a woman's house that was making games. He crashed his motorcycle on the way there. She hasn't had a permanent address for the past years. As a dude, it is extremely unlikely to have this happen to you, even if you overtly speak out against these groups. They go after the women, specifically. I don't really blame women that decided to go do something else, and the percentile that do are putting their entire life in the blender just to make a fucking toy for your ass. Have some goddamn respect for women and actually read up on history, read up on misogyny-as-law and society in general. Read up on the massively sexist ads that changed from 'family computers' to ads that said the computer belonged in a boy's room so his sister would not use it. The current situation in videogames did not occur naturally nor is it "just fine".
So don't be surprised that women aren't being prudes and prairie humble when they complain about overly sexualised women in games. Because it gets fucking tiring when you only have two selections on the menu while everyone else gets 6000 of them. But if you're like "hey could i have one of your menu options?" the other side goes "BUT I'LL ONLY HAVE 5999 THEN?!?! HOW DOES THAT WORK!?!?!"
And then you're like "But you didn't even lose that option. I just want to -"
"SAMSUNG CHIP"
"what"
"CENSUS SHIP"
"wat"
"CENSORSHIP"
"the fuck are you smoking?"
"CHANGING A GAME IS CENSHORSHAPES"
"But doesn't a game designer of a work have ultimate creative contr-"
"NOPE THEY LITERALLY HAVE TO STICK FOREVER WITH THEIR INITIAL DECISION"
"Aren't you forcing their speech then? Is that not forced speech?
"I JUST QUOTE WHAT I HEAR. ITS STILL SALSADIPS"
The plural of anecdote is not data. I'd say about half my friend are women and they almost all play games. One of them has a Nintendo tattoo on her arm. Another literally named her kid after a Final Fantasy character. Dudefriends are about the same rate. So what? Shit, I haven't really touched any video game for the past month and a half, another one of my women friends just finished her marathon re-run of FF8 and is starting her FF9 run tomorrow, and before that she re-ran OoT on her N64.
The vast majority of both genders are playing on mobile. Not only are mobile/phone games real games, mobile itself is the largest market between Mobile, PC, and Console. You may have noticed that everyone has a smartphone now. They are the largest hardware install base in the billions. That's with a B. I don't think a single console has managed to get even close to half of that. The idea that "this type of game" is not a real game has always been offered up as a way to try exclude women as gamers. Today it was mobile games. Previously it was because it was "browser games". Before that it was.. you see the point. Women are a major part of gaming, and most gamers now do not play on PC or console. It's time for male gamers to accept gaming is popular, and everyone is participating in it, and even then it can still be improved.
Sounds like self-selection to me.
Oh, this old chestnut. "The women that buy games are buying it for a man". Not only is it sexist, it ignores that plenty of men don't play video games but buy video games for their kids. How many kids are going to have a job to buy a game vs their parents? Think about it.
Actually women were the primary programmers and involved in the earliest games. Then the arbitrary genderization of computer science in the mid 80s started an effort to push them out and exclude them. This was amplified by PCs and game consoles no longer being in the appliance section, because to be in the toy aisle back then you had to be a girls toy or a boys toy, and Nintendo chose the boys' aisle. Fun fact: most stores no longer use this mechanism because it arbitrarily limits their sales. Fun fact: men used to think programming was a woman's job. Then they came back and started pushing them out once they saw the money in it, and that's not an exaggeration, this has been the story for a lot of women-dominated fields.
"It's this way because it is" is not an honest take of the situation and only serves to reaffirm the status quo. You have to admit there were outside forces that pushed women out of games, out of computer science, and out of technology, arbitrarily. Solely based on gender. Women that weren't pushed away still have to deal with sexism and bullshit solely for deciding to re-enter the world that used to be almost all theirs. A guy recently tried to tell one of my womenfriends that a video game character was a good example of women in games, and he couldn't even spell her name right. How many times have women been told they are fake because they mispronounce a FF character's name? This dude couldn't get a 4-letter character's name right. He will never be called fake because he did that. And despite all of this, women are roughly half the game market. There have been situations where a publisher has outright known a game had a majority of female customers - the one I'm talking about had a 76% female userbase, but the publisher would only do ad buys in male-oriented campaigns because it was the 'safe' money spend because that's what they had done the last year, the year before, etc. Males get advertised to in 2017 because they got arbitrarily chosen as the gender in 19__ for computer games and it's been a sequence of "keep your job safe and your decisions safer" since then.
It's even worse as pubs/execs will not only push a female character to be changed to male in a game, they'll also often combine it with changing the character to white, so it's a double whammy if you're a minority woman - even though you're spending lots of money on game, racism and sexism push to ignore you.
You can only be surprised if you aren't aware of the reality surrounding it. Women have been arbitrarily pushed away from tech and videogames for a long time now. The preference of games has nothing innate to do with gender, but is entirely based around.. ads and marketing. Know why the industry, and games, were majority male for a long time? Because that's what the ads were sold to. They -used- women to sell games to boys and men instead of just selling to both, because they're fucking lazy and because the gift fuckbasket that is society has both latent and overt methods of sexism and hate for women. They arbitrarily limited their own sales to both genders to squeeze 100 more copies out of one.
Because women are arbitrarily, with no reason, pushed away from tech. From games. From anything 'creative', because 'women don't do that'. Women are harassed for being good at math, for being in creative fields, for anything that men feel is a threat to their own job. A woman applying for a job, in the male society's mind, is taking a job away from another man. If you lose a job to another man, then you just weren't man enough to beat the other man. If a woman takes your job, she slept with someone or is 'trying to show off' or 50 other reasons obtuse fucks will give or whatever. There is literally nothing at all , innate to gender, that makes one prefer or disprefer working in games or tech. Computers and programming used to be a 90%+ female. The word 'computer' was a term first used to describe a woman, not an IBM desktop.
There's also another thing: women in games and tech will often let people assume they are a man to just avert harassment. I will repeat this verified post from The Other Place from a developer:
So say you're a woman. You managed to get past society's gauntlets, proving grounds, methods, harassment vocally, physically, sexually, and you finally want to make a game. Oh great, now you have a group of insecure men online that will find you, stalk you, harass you, solely because you're a woman in video games 'changing' gaming from male oriented to general-consumer oriented, and they can no longer fit their hobby in their back pocket so ATTACK! because they're changing your vidjagames and now you have to actually treat other women as fellow people in the field.
Women will often let people assume they are a man online just to avoid harassment. Same reason a lot of women will not chat in public game chat with their voice. Because it's instant harassment if you try to talk. And before we get "well dudes, when i'm hangin' with mah lady, i don't see all this harassment and whatnot" comment from anyone, this is because men and boys will specifically wait until a woman is alone and a dude is not around to harass them.
It's a slow change but it's coming. See above for even more reasons: even when women show up to buy, publishers will stay male oriented because it's the old reliable faucet to drink from. Hell, it's been done to age groups, even on male oriented platforms. For example, Nintendo and publishers knew the GameCube had a majority of owners 21 or older. But they released their M games on Xbox and kid games on GameCube because those were the safe, sure "nobody has ever lost their job releasing kid games on Nintendo" decision, and Xbox was the "safe" Mature platform, even though tons of kids owned Xboxes. A lot of life and the industry in general, despite how many do not want to accept it, is literally the way it is because an executive decided it is. It has nothing innate to do with gender, often ignores actual facts, and has the bonus factor of actual groups of people out there that have forced women developers from their own homes.
A guy even tried to go to a woman's house that was making games. He crashed his motorcycle on the way there. She hasn't had a permanent address for the past years. As a dude, it is extremely unlikely to have this happen to you, even if you overtly speak out against these groups. They go after the women, specifically. I don't really blame women that decided to go do something else, and the percentile that do are putting their entire life in the blender just to make a fucking toy for your ass. Have some goddamn respect for women and actually read up on history, read up on misogyny-as-law and society in general. Read up on the massively sexist ads that changed from 'family computers' to ads that said the computer belonged in a boy's room so his sister would not use it. The current situation in videogames did not occur naturally nor is it "just fine".
So don't be surprised that women aren't being prudes and prairie humble when they complain about overly sexualised women in games. Because it gets fucking tiring when you only have two selections on the menu while everyone else gets 6000 of them. But if you're like "hey could i have one of your menu options?" the other side goes "BUT I'LL ONLY HAVE 5999 THEN?!?! HOW DOES THAT WORK!?!?!"
And then you're like "But you didn't even lose that option. I just want to -"
"SAMSUNG CHIP"
"what"
"CENSUS SHIP"
"wat"
"CENSORSHIP"
"the fuck are you smoking?"
"CHANGING A GAME IS CENSHORSHAPES"
"But doesn't a game designer of a work have ultimate creative contr-"
"NOPE THEY LITERALLY HAVE TO STICK FOREVER WITH THEIR INITIAL DECISION"
"Aren't you forcing their speech then? Is that not forced speech?
"I JUST QUOTE WHAT I HEAR. ITS STILL SALSADIPS"
Last edited:
I think there is a lot to be said about the fact that gay people in MGS sexually torture men
I just want to chime in by saying that I appreciate being able to take part of the perspective of women on this topic.
I'm going to write down some thoughts, and I would very much appreciate it if someone of the feminine persuasion who's had experience both with this thread and sexualization in games, could tell me if I'm way off base.
From a lot of the men in this thread, it seems as though the solution to them is simply to "play something else" as though this stuff doesn't pervade a very large portion of gaming. Also, to a lot of them, this sexualization and objectification comes off as silly, ridiculous, or not worth engaging with—while to women it can be (and often is) felt as personal, unwelcoming, dehumanizing, and distressing. I think that's what a lot of men don't understand because they simply haven't experienced it. To them, it feels dumb, so go play something else. To women, it feels personal, so the industry comes off as antagonizing and off-putting.
I think the reason why so many men are arguing in this thread, and the reason why many men are upset when they are told that their input on the matter holds no greater weight because they have not experienced these things as a woman, is because we are so used to our opinion automatically being seen as valid, important and central. And when guys enter a realm where this privilege is not acknowledged, it's seen as discrimination, censorship, man-hating, and so forth. But I mean, I wouldn't go into a thread about the challenges of having a child with autism, and then feel put down when my input on the matter as a non-parent is not held up as being equally valued. Because of course it isn't. I could still voice my opinion, but I would have to accept the fact that it holds little weight. There are arenas where this holds true, but for straight, white men such as myself who are so used to being everyone's and everything's target demographic, that's seems a tough pill to swallow.
I'm going to write down some thoughts, and I would very much appreciate it if someone of the feminine persuasion who's had experience both with this thread and sexualization in games, could tell me if I'm way off base.
From a lot of the men in this thread, it seems as though the solution to them is simply to "play something else" as though this stuff doesn't pervade a very large portion of gaming. Also, to a lot of them, this sexualization and objectification comes off as silly, ridiculous, or not worth engaging with—while to women it can be (and often is) felt as personal, unwelcoming, dehumanizing, and distressing. I think that's what a lot of men don't understand because they simply haven't experienced it. To them, it feels dumb, so go play something else. To women, it feels personal, so the industry comes off as antagonizing and off-putting.
I think the reason why so many men are arguing in this thread, and the reason why many men are upset when they are told that their input on the matter holds no greater weight because they have not experienced these things as a woman, is because we are so used to our opinion automatically being seen as valid, important and central. And when guys enter a realm where this privilege is not acknowledged, it's seen as discrimination, censorship, man-hating, and so forth. But I mean, I wouldn't go into a thread about the challenges of having a child with autism, and then feel put down when my input on the matter as a non-parent is not held up as being equally valued. Because of course it isn't. I could still voice my opinion, but I would have to accept the fact that it holds little weight. There are arenas where this holds true, but for straight, white men such as myself who are so used to being everyone's and everything's target demographic, that's seems a tough pill to swallow.
I think you'd be surprised at how many people would cry foul if you de-sexualize any sort of entertainment media, for either sex. Male characters in games and movies are largely portrayed as these hyper-muscular, or thinner but extremely cut/chiseled, perfect specimens of manhood. You dont need a bulging crotch to have a sexualized male character. It's just as unrealistic a portrayal as a scantily clad female riding into battle. They are both sexualized, and intentionally so. The male characters can be handwaived away as a "power fantasy" depiction to appeal to males, but their use is just as much to appeal to females too.
Women just arent as susceptible to it, at least not in gaming seemingly. But how many heterosexual women do you know that DONT have a 'hollywood hottie' on their fantasy list? Be it Hugh Jackman, Christian Bale (buff batman Bale that is), etc? Yet that image is so unrealistic and unattainable for 99% of men it is silly to me to pretend it isn't a sexualization of the male game characters. Just because they arent scantily clad or with bulges in their pants doesnt mean that the intent behind the chiseled face, shadow of stubble, amd rippling muscles doesn't serve the same intent as a woman in a bikini.
Now all tbat being said, I am 100% with you in that I wouldnt mind if they took all "bewbs" out of games tomorrow. My favorite game is Ori and the Blind Forest, and I am fairly certain there is nothing sexual about that game. But the whole 'sex sells' problem really is at the root of all this. From magazine covers with beautiful men and women on them, to book covers with rippling muscled men and torn-dress women on them, to movies with sex scenes and nudity so completely unnecessary to the plot to be obviously absurd. I mean does wolverine ALWAYS have to be shirtless in the final battle? Why does no one else seem to lose his shirt? Games are just another symptom of this problem/trend. Unless we transition to an asexual society, sexing things up will always be a thing. The more enlightened folks can fight against it, try to shift the industry away, but pandering to one of the most base of human instincts is a big hill to conquer.
Looks like I went to bed right before things exploded. Happy to see the mod team on top of this. I'm working on a thread about how these derails happen - this is my list so far;
Any big ones I'm missing?
Talk about sexualization as a whole > people come in to say how you should talk only about the worst examples.
Talk about only the worst examples > people come in to complain about how you are 'focusing only on the negative'.
I know that that is not what you intend at all, but why not just let the discussion be about what it is about instead of arguing that it should be about something else or only a narrow aspect of the subject? Just challenge the points you disagree with if you want to discuss those specific aspects within the broader discussion. You are already doing that just fine.
General Etiquette
Read the OP, not just the title. Read the first few and last few pages of discussion so that you know what is being discussed. Don't insult others or generalize entire groups. Don't just say what you think, explain why you think it.
Artistic Integrity and Censorship.
Double Standards, Shoehorning, 'Only if the writing is good', Tokenism, Pandering, Political Correctness, and Hidden Agendas.
'Games are just for fun' and 'Keep politics out of videogames'.
Attack the Source (Ad Hominem), False Dichotomy, Blame the Discussion, Tone Policing, 'If you call out … you are the real …', Click-bait, Outrage Culture, and False Equivalence.
Status Quo, 'This is just how it is', Circular Logic and Statistics, 'Just stop playing', 'Why aren't women making their own games', 'Do sexism and racism even exist', and Anecdotal Evidence.
See No Evil, Raceblindness, All Lives Matter, Whataboutism, and Diversitypocalypse Slippery Slope.
Historical Accuracy.
Read the OP, not just the title. Read the first few and last few pages of discussion so that you know what is being discussed. Don't insult others or generalize entire groups. Don't just say what you think, explain why you think it.
Artistic Integrity and Censorship.
Double Standards, Shoehorning, 'Only if the writing is good', Tokenism, Pandering, Political Correctness, and Hidden Agendas.
'Games are just for fun' and 'Keep politics out of videogames'.
Attack the Source (Ad Hominem), False Dichotomy, Blame the Discussion, Tone Policing, 'If you call out … you are the real …', Click-bait, Outrage Culture, and False Equivalence.
Status Quo, 'This is just how it is', Circular Logic and Statistics, 'Just stop playing', 'Why aren't women making their own games', 'Do sexism and racism even exist', and Anecdotal Evidence.
See No Evil, Raceblindness, All Lives Matter, Whataboutism, and Diversitypocalypse Slippery Slope.
Historical Accuracy.
This is an endless loop.
Talk about sexualization as a whole > people come in to say how you should talk only about the worst examples.
Talk about only the worst examples > people come in to complain about how you are 'focusing only on the negative'.
I know that that is not what you intend at all, but why not just let the discussion be about what it is about instead of arguing that it should be about something else or only a narrow aspect of the subject? Just challenge the points you disagree with if you want to discuss those specific aspects within the broader discussion. You are already doing that just fine.
Almost 60 pages and the thread has become "sexism isn't real" and "women don't play games anyway who cares"
Wow
Wow
i'm glad someone stepped up and made this thread, with an in depth OP but looking at how huge it is plus the mod edits on the OP looks like I missed out a lot
I think you might be confusing 'Idealization' and 'Sexy' with 'Sexualization' and 'Sexualized'. Yes, idealization can be harmful too, but it is not the same as sexualization. People and characters can be sexy without being sexualized.
Honestly this can be solved with something the game industry already has. Alternate character outfits.
For the default, give reasonable attire for whatever role and/or universe the characters are in. For ppl that want cheesecake for any (potentially equal opportunity) reason, have the ability to change outfits out of game in a way that does not insult the audience who doesn't care for it.
It can even be a revenue stream as a microtransaction that the Industry is all about right now.
For ppl that really want it, they can have it without ruining the game world that others may want to take more seriously.
For the default, give reasonable attire for whatever role and/or universe the characters are in. For ppl that want cheesecake for any (potentially equal opportunity) reason, have the ability to change outfits out of game in a way that does not insult the audience who doesn't care for it.
It can even be a revenue stream as a microtransaction that the Industry is all about right now.
For ppl that really want it, they can have it without ruining the game world that others may want to take more seriously.
Yeah, things kinda flared up earlier today, but settled down once the mods started making their presence known.
Damn, just woke up and so many posts, and what the fuck is this "is sexism real" shit? Come on, you can't be serious with this.
I really don't like the argument "play something else". It just doesn't work and doesn't fix anything.
I mean, okay, some games are clearly not for the female audience such as Senran Kagura or Dead or Alive Xtreme (that doesn't prevent some women from playing it, of course, maybe some women have fun with them). When I see those games, I'm obviously not going to play them, because this is not my kind of games and I would never buy them. On the other hand, you have games that target the female audience, such as Otome games. But Senran Kagura, DoA Xtreme and Otome games are quite niche and target a particular audience. These games are fine, they can exist.
The problem is when the sexualisation and objectification appear in a "mainstream" game. Xenoblade 2 is an example of how unbalanced male and female characters' designs are. The female characters are clearly more sexualized than the male characters. And the answer of "why female characters are unnecessarily more sexualized" is obvious. The game is supposed to target a more mainstream audience, it's gonna be Nintendo's next big game at the end of the year but the designs give the impression that they actually target the "otaku" audience, some of them are really cringy as fuck.
To take a more recent example, I felt a bit annoyed and cringed at some moments in Persona 5 when the female characters were sexualized. I think it's because you play from the perspective of a teenage boy, but some of these moments were really unnecessary to me. Despite that, I love Persona 5, the game was incredible and spent days and nights playing it, but that doesn't prevent me from criticizing some aspects of the game.
So in the end, when people say "go play something else", what are you going to play when the sexualization and representation issues are also prevalent in mainstream games?
Well, I know I'm not gonna stop playing even if those games have this kind of problem, because, well, I love games. But I'm gonna continue to criticize them whether it's gameplay, or story, or graphics, or how the characters are handled. Because I love games and I want them to be better.
I really don't like the argument "play something else". It just doesn't work and doesn't fix anything.
I mean, okay, some games are clearly not for the female audience such as Senran Kagura or Dead or Alive Xtreme (that doesn't prevent some women from playing it, of course, maybe some women have fun with them). When I see those games, I'm obviously not going to play them, because this is not my kind of games and I would never buy them. On the other hand, you have games that target the female audience, such as Otome games. But Senran Kagura, DoA Xtreme and Otome games are quite niche and target a particular audience. These games are fine, they can exist.
The problem is when the sexualisation and objectification appear in a "mainstream" game. Xenoblade 2 is an example of how unbalanced male and female characters' designs are. The female characters are clearly more sexualized than the male characters. And the answer of "why female characters are unnecessarily more sexualized" is obvious. The game is supposed to target a more mainstream audience, it's gonna be Nintendo's next big game at the end of the year but the designs give the impression that they actually target the "otaku" audience, some of them are really cringy as fuck.
To take a more recent example, I felt a bit annoyed and cringed at some moments in Persona 5 when the female characters were sexualized. I think it's because you play from the perspective of a teenage boy, but some of these moments were really unnecessary to me. Despite that, I love Persona 5, the game was incredible and spent days and nights playing it, but that doesn't prevent me from criticizing some aspects of the game.
So in the end, when people say "go play something else", what are you going to play when the sexualization and representation issues are also prevalent in mainstream games?
Well, I know I'm not gonna stop playing even if those games have this kind of problem, because, well, I love games. But I'm gonna continue to criticize them whether it's gameplay, or story, or graphics, or how the characters are handled. Because I love games and I want them to be better.
Oh no no, not at all, I totally agree with your post!
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I was actually speaking against people saying "play something else".
I was under the impression that for the most part, JRPG's and co do have teenage boys as their main demographic. As you point out, theme, age of the characters, presentation ect. It's often all typical shounen stuff.
Fans did not like Nintendo's handling of Tokyo Mirage Sessions. There was even an unnecessary uproar about Fatal Frame over a gravure model outfit. So instead of wasting money editing their games and moderating their social media outlets, Nintendo leave it be. Unfortunately those players are very vocal too and had an already established buyer base, so they have an advantage in dictating the direction of a game.
Still I think it is better to make an original game addressing the sensibilities discussed here, rather than edit already established content and make a mess or a parody of it.
I remember reading the webcomic Sabrina Online. There the main protagonist is a web designer and she is also an avid Commodore Amiga and Transformers fan. She ends up working in the web design of a porn production company, owned by a female pornstar who takes interest in her. Not that she's proud of it. Her parent dont learn about it till the last panels.That porn star had a hard life with an abusing father, so she had to leave with her younger siblings and support them.Comic doesnt have any NSFW images and is more slice of life and comedy focused. Still it gives an aspect of all those low paid and miserable jobs with computers no one bothers with
Movies/Shows are a little bit farther along than games are but I suspect Hugh Jackman's appeal has more to do with Hugh Jackman himself than how he's usually been depicted on screen(pretty sure intimidating cut jawed faces and torso's carved from granite are often more appealing to men). Still, it's at least a little more common in movies to see a sexualized man from or for the gaze of people who are actually attracted to men. The only overt example I really know of in games is DmC Dante.
Wide spread desexualization might be unrealistic but I think the bigger issue is the shortage of good examples of female characters and protagonists, which I actually think is important for kids of both sexes that might play games(in regards to how both girls and boys see women).
See this isn't helping. By responding with your hot takes you aren't contributing to anything. My point was I haven't seen examples of this in real life therefore I find it hard to believe it's so prevalent.
You aren't contributing to anything either by saying "sexism doesn't happen in my life so it's not real". It's dismissive of real testimonials by real women just because it doesn't affect you.
Sexism isn't some mythical unicorn.
It's time for Exercise 2, it seems! :P Spot the attractive guy:
I specifically said sexism was real though. I'm not arguing against that. If you go back to my previous posts you can see the issue I take here is regarding if sexism is ingrained into our society. As in it's part of the system and therefore affects everyone. I'm not an American so maybe it is awful over there but at least where I live the women I talk to haven't been disadvantaged in their life for being women. Now of course I know that's just anecdotal evidence and I know those women don't speak for all women. I'm not trying to dismiss all women and their experiences. I think it's fucking awful when women get any shit for being a woman. There are gross dudes out there that harass women, no argument against that. There are shitty companies that don't pay women as much as dudes, no argument against that.
The only thing I argue is that it's inherently in our system. It can't be because if that was the case it would affect all women but it doesn't. Now of course that doesn't mean the struggles other women face are invalid. They are not and I will support them to fight for a better future.
Now I don't want to derail this thread anymore but I had to come out and say this because I'm tired of people labeling me as a damn troll. If I was a troll I'd be shitposting to the max but I'm seriously trying to be a reasonable as I can. Least you all could do is give me the benefit of the doubt.
I don't live in the US and have never directly seen police discriminate against black people but the overwhelming body of examples on the internet suggests there's a world of experiences outside mine. How are you able to post on the internet but not see endless examples of how institutional sexism occurs?
Why should people offer you this courtesy when you blatantly haven't done the same to them?
Are you sure the woman you know aren't disavantaged? or they just didn't tell you? a lot of women simply don't speak about their struggles because they end up being dismissed (this thread is an example). Some also gave up because it's so ingrained in our system.
It's not as easy as I don't see/ they don't say they have problems.
Well how am I supposed to source myself not being a troll? All I did was ask people for a source. What's wrong with that?
When was the last time you watched a mainstream movie where the camera lingered on the butt of the male character?
Or how many lingering shots do we see of Hugh Jackmans torso that distract from the movie?
But let's stick with the x-men and suppose wolverine is oversexualised purely for women.
Magneto and Prof x : middle age man
Beast : blue animal like
Cyclops : can't even see his eyes most of the time
Yet for the women we have Storm and Jean.
I take the older movies as examples but feel free to use the more current ones.
And that is the problem. Not that women are sexualised but that it is so common.
I love jrpgs but I barely play them nowadays. The fanservice is just putting me off. I'm going to buy xenoblade next month but it might be my last try.
There is always a chance. I don't claim to be an expert on this.
What's wrong is you asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt when you are ignoring the comments of people posting in this thread. Why should they have to do your research for you before you take them seriously? Type into google 'institutionalised sexism' and see what it comes up with. It takes seconds, quicker than you writing a post here. This isn't some obscure claim with nothing written about it that a casual reader might need help finding.
Last edited:
I wont talk about other mediums, but remember that vidya (counting out mobile market) its mostly made up of males as the user base and so, the target audience
- Status