EmuParadise no longer providing ROM download links

1-D_FE said:

Many people will look at you like an alien for saying such things, but it's true. Very little of the law has to do with morality. It's why people who understand call it the legal system and not the justice system. Very little of law has to do with justice.

The list is endless. Companies in control write the laws. It's why even stupid things like medical marijuana have such issues getting implementing, while heroin (opiates which have the exact same chemical structure) is prescribed like candy. Pharma doesn't profit from weed, they do from creating synthetic variants of heroin and pushing it through with almost no oversight.

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Yeah, we're getting off topic now, but back to video games, I think it's well worth highlighting the absurdity of some aspects of copyright law, but at the same time you still can't advocate piracy (I know you're not doing that, I mean generally)

If someone pirates huge AAA games or modern indies I think that person is a dick, and has no justification for doing so, but at the same time I won't lose sleep if someone downloads Lufia 2, because whoever owns the rights to Lufia 2 doesn't seem to care about making money from that IP

The laws sees both of those examples as the same, but clearly the motives behind those doing the downloading and the level of damage being done to each rights holder is not equal, which is why I would opt to try and cause a fuss and change the law

I think anyone downloading Chrono Trigger illegally is a dick, as that game is readily available in a way that supports the rights holder

I doubt anyone downloading games like Lufia 2 will ever be punished for doing so, and whoever owns the rights doesn't seem to care about selling it, so I suppose it's a victimless crime, but even so it's a crime nevertheless, and so all we can do is try to change the law, or petition the rights holder to let us buy the game legally in a way that rewards them

So I've been very much on the side of "good riddance Emuparadise", but I've been thinking about some of the arguments people made in this thread, and I am bit conflicted:

So here's my biggest question for Emuparadise "fans": What is your cutoff? When is a game old enough to be considered "okay" to download, and how much can you really expect the average person to adhere to those guidelines?

Persona 3 FES is 12 years old, and like most PS2 games, it was easily available on Emuparadise. However, you can still buy brand new, sealed copies of FES on Amazon for $15. This is not some reseller—the seller is listed at Atlus, and the game is shipped and sold by Amazon.com. You could slot this game into any computer with a DVD drive (internal or external) and load it up in PCSX2 just like that—no complicated ripping required.

(This should all be separate from any discussions of copyright law, because I suspect nearly everyone here will agree that copyright should last longer than 12 years.)

How many PCSX2 users do you think played FES this way, versus just downloading the game for free off a site like Emuparadise? Can you really expect people to remember to check whether a game can be purchased legitimately before they use a rom site? I suspect that once someone knows Emuparadise exists, and is used to downloading games from there, they will always choose Emuparadise without a second thought as to whether or not a game can be legitimately purchased.

I reject the notion that piracy can never lead to lost sales. While it's true that not every download represents a lost sale, it also stands to reason that a percentage of users who'd be willing to pay $X for a game would rather hold onto their money, particularly if the game in question can be easily downloaded for free from an easy-to-find location.

This is why I am mostly happy to see Emuparadise gone. The roms themselves are still out there if you really can't acquire them in any other way—they'll just be more difficult to find and more annoying to download. If that leads to more people purchasing games legitimately, it's a win in my book.

If Emuparadise only hosted legitimate abandonware, my opinion would be completely different. But that's not the case. If you want to see a website that's actually doing this properly, take a look through the Internet Archive's gaming collection. If that got shut down, I would legitimately mourn its loss.

Some of you should be receiving Gamerscore, Trophies, and/or Achievements for the amount of corporate defense you're running.

afternoon delight said:

Some of you should be receiving Gamerscore, Trophies, and/or Achievements for the amount of corporate defense you're running.

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Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this discussion.

I don't want to be snarky, but seriously, name calling isn't going to get us anywhere. It isn't inherently anti-consumer to sometimes argue in favor of companies. We should be on the same side to an extent—game development is an inherently risky venture, and it's in our interest that companies find game development to be profitable.

To be fair, I think the point of "what about people who want a specific version of a game" is at least valid in terms of availability. The currently available version of Chrono Trigger is based on the DS version, with its re-translated script, and new content, some partly based on the existence of the sequel. But there are quirks and bits of dialogue in the original SNES script that are iconic (especially how Frog speaks) and quite a few people aren't fond of Chrono Cross, nor the attempts to tie it to that game in re-releases. Or maybe someone might just want to experience the game exactly as it was originally released. It's basically the same problem that has plagued releases of the original Star Wars trilogy for a long time, that being the lack of proper HD-mastered theatrical versions.

As said before, I do think a 'use it or lose it' clause should be applied to published works so publishers are encouraged to actually keep them available or risk them falling into the public domain. It's very much not fair that publishers sit on their works or be negligent with them, while denying people the right to legally experience those works.

That bit about soldiers playing old school favorites during war and people losing sibling to remember growing up together, jeeze, really wrenching my heart strings to the max. Honestly, I never even considered this kind of things, my own nostalgia alone makes me go back for more, but being in either of those situations games you grew up can really be a huge rock/coping mechanism.

Broken Hope said:

So if you're poor it's perfectly acceptable to get something for free? Plenty of stuff doesn't release in some countries, that makes it acceptable to just download it instead?

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casiopao said:

Being poor does not make it okay to steal.

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Are you guys trying to miss the point on purpose? Say that I'm poor and I live in a country where video games aren't well distributed or where a certain game I'm looking for has NEVER been distributed to. What do you think, realistically I'm going to do? Pay out the ass to some first worlder with a stronger currency (this would also include buying the system if I don't currently own it), OR do you suppose that I'll just get it for free on the internet?

Candescence said:

To be fair, I think the point of "what about people who want a specific version of a game" is at least valid in terms of availability. The currently available version of Chrono Trigger is based on the DS version, with its re-translated script, and new content, some partly based on the existence of the sequel. But there are quirks and bits of dialogue in the original SNES script that are iconic (especially how Frog speaks) and quite a few people aren't fond of Chrono Cross, nor the attempts to tie it to that game in re-releases. Or maybe someone might just want to experience the game exactly as it was originally released. It's basically the same problem that has plagued releases of the original Star Wars trilogy for a long time, that being the lack of proper HD-mastered theatrical versions.

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And purists who want an original vinyl print of a classic album pay through the nose to get it, they're not entitled to download it for free because they don't like the compromises made in an easily obtainable and widely available CD pressing.
Someone who's never played Chrono Trigger can buy Chrono Trigger. even if internet people nit-pick it, its not internet meme literally unplayable.

Dr Wily said:

And purists who want an original vinyl print of a classic album pay through the nose to get it, they're not entitled to download it for free because they don't like the compromises made in an easily obtainable and widely available CD pressing.
Someone who's never played Chrono Trigger can buy Chrono Trigger. even if internet people nit-pick it, its not internet meme literally unplayable.

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They could even buy the PC version and then download the ROM of the SNES version if they wanted. I mean, that's also not legal, but at least they'd still be buying the game

In my opinion that should be legal, and I suffered though the 50hz PAL version of Super Metroid on Wii U with German subtitles (which can't be switched off) because in the UK that's the only version available to me

I would have loved to buy that shit version and then play a 60hz version on PC, but I couldn't, and I didn't, because that would (stupidly) be illegal

It's 100% not justifiable to steal Chrono Trigger because you don't like the version for sale, though morally I'd say downloading the version you want after paying for the legit version would be ok, though legally you can't do either, which is again, really dumb

I'd just like to point out that there's a lot of double standards when it comes to supporting the content creators.

How many of you have compunctions about buying used games, where not only does the publisher not get a cut, they also lose the sale of a new copy?

Yes, legally it is fine to buy used games but is it moral?

Now I'm not saying "used games are a thibg so piracy should be ok," I'm merely pointing out that people are hypocritical.

dumbclown said:

Are you guys trying to miss the point on purpose? Say that I'm poor and I live in a country where video games aren't well distributed or where a certain game I'm looking for has NEVER been distributed to. What do you think, realistically I'm going to do? Pay out the ass to some first worlder with a stronger currency (this would also include buying the system if I don't currently own it), OR do you suppose that I'll just get it for free on the internet?

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Why is the third option, go without, not even something that you'll consider?

You're not entitled to something just because you can't afford it or can't purchase it in your country.

Dr Wily said:

Someone who's never played Chrono Trigger can buy Chrono Trigger. even if internet people nit-pick it, its not internet meme literally unplayable.

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Sigh. Could you make a single post that isn't based on completely fabricated misrepresentations of what people are saying? That would be swell. I know I promised not to engage with you again because you clearly have no interest in any form of discussion and just enjoy hearing yourself talk a bunch but this is incredibly frustrating. No one was arguing that different versions of Chrono Trigger were unplayable, at all. That wasn't anywhere remotely close to the point, but I guess you've decided that you want to hear what you want to hear rather than what is actually being said. I've said it a million times and you've decided to completely ignore it every single time, but here goes again: there are completely legitimate reasons why someone would want to play or analyze or hack a particular version of a game that happens to not be available by any legal means. That is a fact. If you don't care about that fact, that's your problem. Justify it however you want. I generally stay far away from any type of ad hominem bullshit but people like you make it incredibly hard to do anything of value in a debate.

Thanks to everyone else who engaged with differing opinions ITT, I appreciate the varied perspectives on this topic. For my own sanity due to posters like Dr Wily, I'm outta this discussion.

Broken Hope said:

Why is the third option, go without, not even something that you'll consider?

You're not entitled to something just because you can't afford it or can't purchase it in your country.

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I have a question for you (and for other people with similar view points): why do you, as a consumer who enjoys discussing video games on the internet, not want more people to have access to these games? Would you not prefer if you had more people to discuss games with, even if they can't afford to pay a bunch of money to buy second hand copies? It's only a positive for you as a person, whether or not you feel if people are 'entitled' to art or not. Or is your only interest in gatekeeping and making sure poor people and those from other countries can't enjoy your hobby?

TyrantGuardian said:

there are completely legitimate reasons why someone would want to play or analyze or hack a particular version of a game that happens to not be available by any legal means.

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Except you were not talking about someone who already legitimately owns a copy and wants to tinker with an alternate version.
There is zero fucking excuse where a product is available to not buy that product.

Buying that easily obtainable game and then downloading a different version is a completely different fucking thing to saying "Oh, I don't really like the version that they're selling, I don't want to pay a lot for a collectible, and I somehow can't live with my life without playing the specific version I want even though the game for sale is still the same fucking game people talk about as being good".

Like... you can call that "bad faith" and "wanting to hear myself talk" or whatever other smoke screen deflection bullshit you want to deny that you are 100% in the wrong on this, no matter how you slice it.
You are still 100% in the wrong.

If you've never played Chrono Trigger and you want to play Chrono Trigger, fucking just buy Chrono Trigger, JFC.
All this "Oh, but some emulators have low latency input detection" / "Oh, the translation is slightly different" / "Oh, fanservice IPS patches don't work on the IOS / Android / Steam release" / "Oh, I don't like the graphics filter they used" / "Oh, some other bullshit reason I don't spend money on something I apparently want" is just rationalising piracy.

e:

Fou-Lu said:

I have a question for you (and for other people with similar view points): why do you, as a consumer who enjoys discussing video games on the internet, not want more people to have access to these games? Would you not prefer if you had more people to discuss games with, even if they can't afford to pay a bunch of money to buy second hand copies? It's only a positive for you as a person, whether or not you feel if people are 'entitled' to art or not. Or is your only interest in gatekeeping and making sure poor people and those from other countries can't enjoy your hobby?

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If people pirating stuff know they are pirating stuff, then they should know that just because people turn a blind eye to it doesn't mean its okay.
The correct response to losing something you didn't really have any right to in the first place isn't "Fuck you people who legitimately own a thing I got for free", and it colours the responses to news like this.

Whats worse is to then take that mentality - that because stuff is freely available on the internet its not worth money unless the owner jumps through hoops to make a product much better than what is illicitly freely available - and dog on legitimate retro releases because their emulation isn't good enough / those games aren't worth what the owner is charging / other minor nitpicky complaints.

e2:
Sorry, you weren't banned when I posted that, and its bad form to quote you when you cannot respond.