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Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Real question. Is Sonic Fox the greatest FG player of all time now? He has won 4 EVO's for different games. Injustice, Mortal Kombat, Skullgirls, and Dragon Ball Fighterz. He is on a very, very short list now. I know some folks were saying no because he doesn't play Street Fighter, but at this point...does that matter?

Sonic Fox is really great but yes it matters that he's not playing where the best competition is. NRS games just do not generate much interest in Korea and Japan, two countries that have often dominated the fighting game scene. If Sonic Fox fully devoted to Street Fighter or Tekken I'm sure he'd do really well but I'm skeptical that he'd be the best among that group.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Sonic Fox is really great but yes it matters that he's not playing where the best competition is. NRS games just do not generate much interest in Korea and Japan, two countries that have often dominated the fighting game scene. If Sonic Fox fully devoted to Street Fighter or Tekken I'm sure he'd do really well but I'm skeptical that he'd be the best among that group.
If Sonicfox is beating the likes of GO1 and Kazunoko in the game that they're focusing on, then this argument really doesn't have much merit anymore.

And in the short time that he was playing SF5, he was placing top 8 at premiere events with Fang of all characters.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
The true test of strength is beating Xiaohai in KOF.

That'll test the shit out of your reactions, fundamentals and everything else.
 

jacket

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
What happened in DBZF grand finals with the side switching that have people discrediting Sonic Fox
 

Jer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,196
Is it really controversial with anyone that actually enters fighting game tournaments? Just seems to be a lot of bitching from people that only show up once a year for Evo, about something that's always been legal.

For the record, I've got SonicFox as the #5 American ever, behind Justin, Valle, Choi, and Ricki. Just needs more longevity to move up.
 

ArmsofSleep

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,833
Washington DC
Is it really controversial with anyone that actually enters fighting game tournaments? Just seems to be a lot of bitching from people that only show up once a year for Evo, about something that's always been legal.

For the record, I've got SonicFox as the #5 American ever, behind Justin, Valle, Choi, and Ricki. Just needs more longevity to move up.

It's basically a fake controversy. It's fun to talk and banter about but honestly I don't think anyone is mad about it except for SF haters.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,404
It's silly that we had this exact same "drama" about a month ago with eleague grand final bracket reset. And it also boiled down to people not liking the results trying to discredit it.
 

Dead Guy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,597
Saskatchewan, Canada
If Sonicfox is beating the likes of GO1 and Kazunoko in the game that they're focusing on, then this argument really doesn't have much merit anymore.

And in the short time that he was playing SF5, he was placing top 8 at premiere events with Fang of all characters.

It's still fact that SF has by and large the most intense competition of any game. The amount of killers in DBZ, Injustice or MK pales in comparison to the gauntlet you have to get through in legacy games like SF or Tekken. Sure he beat kaz and narrowly beat Goichi but he's never had to run through killer after killer in order to get into top 8 like someone in street fighter would.

Also I wouldn't place a ton of merit on making top 8 with FANG at the beginning of SFVs life. People were still trying out what worked then and no one had that great of a grasp on the game. I seriously doubt anyone could break top 8 with FANG now or even top 32 for that matter.

Not saying Sonic Fox isn't great but I'm very hesitant to call him the best fighting game player ever at this point. He's this generation's Justin Wong, someone who can pick up fighting games incredibly quickly and can translate his skills well across the genre. However I don't consider Justin Wong the greatest fighting game player ever either.
 
Oct 29, 2017
6,249
Dude asked for a side switch, EVO staff took forever to get on with it, so now there's the "contrevorsay" of it ruining GO1's momentum.

The idea that someone as experienced and skilled as Go1 would be thrown off by something like that is deeply insulting. People are acting like this is the first time he's ever been to a major or some shit.

I think Go1 is good enough to not be thrown off by a damn coin toss. -_-
 

lucebuce

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,891
Pakistan
The idea that someone as experienced and skilled as Go1 would be thrown off by something like that is deeply insulting. People are acting like this is the first time he's ever been to a major or some shit.

I think Go1 is good enough to not be thrown off by a damn coin toss. -_-
Nah bruh, SonicFox abused the rules and messed with GO1's confidence.
/s

It's silly that we had this exact same "drama" about a month ago with eleague grand final bracket reset. And it also boiled down to people not liking the results trying to discredit it.
It was even stupider then, because both the players knew full well beforehand that there would be a break if there was a reset.
 

Wolfgunblood

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,748
The Land
The games that are to me the ultimate display of skill under pressure:

1. MvC3
2. KoF13
3. KoF14
4. Tekken

The best of the best in those games are to me the best in the FGC. To execute consistently in those games in a tournament setting like EVO is almost superhuman. That's why Justin is the best player of all time, he not only consistently placed in SF, he competed at the top of Marvel as well. ChrisG and PRBalrog are up there as well as best of all time for the same reason.
 

gondee

Member
Apr 17, 2018
3
EVO is only worth attending if you fall into one of these categories:
- you're a top player who has a good shot of finishing in the money
- you're way into the spectator aspect of the event
- you want to make a Vegas vacation out of it
- you're within driving distance and don't have to break the bank to attend
I'd agree with this. I went for the first time after watching Evo for many years. I am super into the spectator aspect of the event. I would normally have 3-4 windows open watching different events the entire weekend of Evo when I was at home.

I was there to support the group of friends I went with and to experience it, but outside of that, there wasn't a ton I was interested in. They had long lines for games I'm not interested in really playing, long lines for stick modifications (I play pad), and some cool small side things like artist alley that I wasn't really interested in. I was more than happy to park my bum in a folding chair at 5PM at the Tekken part of the Convention center and watch it until it's top 8 for like 6 hours. With that said, I couldn't keep up with some really good matches at the pool setups because I wanted to keep my seat. I went back to my hotel room and watched the rest of the stuff I missed.

It was worth it for the Vegas aspect of it since I hadn't been in many years, but if there isn't something you are really passionate about there you might make additional plans because Evo in the convention center is a lot of standing around. It's also great if you are very much interested in expanding the circle of people you play regularly with, but I have a limit to how interested I can get in Tekken, and after two days of the tournament I was burnt out on it.

I would love to go again if things are looking suitable for it, but it's not quite a mandatory thing for me. I will see how it goes.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I'd agree with this. I went for the first time after watching Evo for many years. I am super into the spectator aspect of the event. I would normally have 3-4 windows open watching different events the entire weekend of Evo when I was at home.

I was there to support the group of friends I went with and to experience it, but outside of that, there wasn't a ton I was interested in. They had long lines for games I'm not interested in really playing, long lines for stick modifications (I play pad), and some cool small side things like artist alley that I wasn't really interested in. I was more than happy to park my bum in a folding chair at 5PM at the Tekken part of the Convention center and watch it until it's top 8 for like 6 hours. With that said, I couldn't keep up with some really good matches at the pool setups because I wanted to keep my seat. I went back to my hotel room and watched the rest of the stuff I missed.

It was worth it for the Vegas aspect of it since I hadn't been in many years, but if there isn't something you are really passionate about there you might make additional plans because Evo in the convention center is a lot of standing around. It's also great if you are very much interested in expanding the circle of people you play regularly with, but I have a limit to how interested I can get in Tekken, and after two days of the tournament I was burnt out on it.

I would love to go again if things are looking suitable for it, but it's not quite a mandatory thing for me. I will see how it goes.
Seconded. A smaller event like CEO or Combo Breaker is going to be a better experience for a lot of people.
 

MarkMan

Arcade Stick Dev
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
393
San Diego, CA

BassForever

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,915
CT
It sucks. I didn't lose my voice doing commentary... I lost my voice by talking so much during meetings and interviews :(



Sorry we couldn't entertain you more.

Thanks everyone for the positive words/comments. I hope you enjoyed EVO 2018!

Let me apologize my comment was far too harsh. While I wasn't a fan I do appreciate your enthusiasm it's clear you both really enjoy commentating Tekken.
 

cj_iwakura

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,195
Coral Springs, FL
The games that are to me the ultimate display of skill under pressure:

1. MvC3
2. KoF13
3. KoF14
4. Tekken

The best of the best in those games are to me the best in the FGC. To execute consistently in those games in a tournament setting like EVO is almost superhuman. That's why Justin is the best player of all time, he not only consistently placed in SF, he competed at the top of Marvel as well. ChrisG and PRBalrog are up there as well as best of all time for the same reason.
Haven't seen tension until you've been in a Catherine Grand Final, it's like nothing else.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,767
I feel he wont be taken as seriously until he has a street fighter notch on his belt since that is the game that is taken seriously *shrug*

But given his skill in being able to play those different games i could see him doing it for SF as well.

Plus he's still young
 

GeoNeo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,447
Sonic is only 20 he def on track to be the goat of fighting games in an era that sees the most competitors and comp. I'd say he's got a good 15 years in him.
 

SapientWolf

Member
Nov 6, 2017
6,565
I agree with him though, if we take "non-game" to actually mean "non-competitive." Combo Breaker is the #1 tournament to attend just because of all the silly side stuff there is to do (e.g. auction tournaments).

EVO is only worth attending if you fall into one of these categories:
- you're a top player who has a good shot of finishing in the money
- you're way into the spectator aspect of the event
- you want to make a Vegas vacation out of it
- you're within driving distance and don't have to break the bank to attend

All other majors that I've attended me have offered me more for less.
The EVO Indie Mixer is pretty fun. I must have spent a good couple of hours playing Invisigun and Zarvot.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,900
For those who stopped by my booth, thank you! Even got a few "are you Raging Spaniard from GAF???" comments which were funny cause I was like "well not anymore lol"

I'll be back for sure next year :)
 

Dastidood

Member
Oct 27, 2017
403
c'mon now. DBFZ had the most entrants at this Evo. The goalpost moving re: sonicfox is getting silly at this point.

The original post I quoted asked whether Street Fighter mattered anymore and I replied that it does... Being a silver scrub myself I would never dream to downplay SonicFox (or any top 8 for that matter lol)...
DBFZ is the newest hot thing which has also played a small part in it having the highest number of entrants...
 

h0mebas3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
424
I agree with him though, if we take "non-game" to actually mean "non-competitive." Combo Breaker is the #1 tournament to attend just because of all the silly side stuff there is to do (e.g. auction tournaments).

EVO is only worth attending if you fall into one of these categories:
- you're a top player who has a good shot of finishing in the money
- you're way into the spectator aspect of the event
- you want to make a Vegas vacation out of it
- you're within driving distance and don't have to break the bank to attend

All other majors that I've attended me have offered me more for less.

I think the crux of your argument boils down to finances. That having been said, if you love fighting games and can afford to go, EVO should be on the top of your list. For example, I was able to play demos for
  • DOA 6
  • Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
  • Kill la Kill the Game: IF
  • Soul Calibur VI
  • DRAGON BALL FIGHTERZ on Switch
Beyond just the gameplay demos, the level of access you have to people in the scene at EVO is probably higher than at any other major because 9 times out of 10 if they aren't at any other major, they will be at EVO. Being able to talk with YuYu about her match with Tanukana, ask Mori if he's ever thought about making BlazBlue 3D like Guilty Gear or chat with a legend like BAS about how he stays so good at CvS2 are moments I'll never forget. Not to mention all the associated events like the Exhibition at Esports Arena, Bar Fights, and panels if you're into them. And I haven't even gotten into Anime EVO, all the side tournaments, artist alley, indie games, autograph signings--and the fact you're in Las Vegas.

EVO is like any vacation: you can either lounge around doing very little, or you can try and squeeze as much as possible out of every day and go home tired where you need to take a vacation day to recover from your vacation. EVO is 100% what you make of it...you need to have a plan before you get there.
 

fspm

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,086
Caught up on SFV, never thought I'd see a Brit win it all but it's great to see!

Some great matches at this evo, damn. Gonna have to find the Puyo Puyo and Catherine footage I missed...
The only good thing about sf5 so far is bipson winning something. Installed during evo free trial, what a clusterfuck still.
Oh and the second good thing - punk in the op lost
giphy.gif
 

BBboy20

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,984
Was the guy in the Fuka newsie cap.
Ah. Did I play the 40th Anniversary SNK collection the longest?

For those who stopped by my booth, thank you! Even got a few "are you Raging Spaniard from GAF???" comments which were funny cause I was like "well not anymore lol"

I'll be back for sure next year :)
Oh, that your booth? Huh. I'll keep that in mind next time.

Also: those Cell yells were the loudest shit ever.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
Beyond just the gameplay demos, the level of access you have to people in the scene at EVO is probably higher than at any other major because 9 times out of 10 if they aren't at any other major, they will be at EVO. Being able to talk with YuYu about her match with Tanukana, ask Mori if he's ever thought about making BlazBlue 3D like Guilty Gear or chat with a legend like BAS about how he stays so good at CvS2 are moments I'll never forget. Not to mention all the associated events like the Exhibition at Esports Arena, Bar Fights, and panels if you're into them. And I haven't even gotten into Anime EVO, all the side tournaments, artist alley, indie games, autograph signings--and the fact you're in Las Vegas.
But you get more "access" to top players at smaller tournaments because they tend to be busier at EVO. This is explicitly one of the reasons why I rank EVO lower than other events for mid-level players who are primarily focused on competition.

Most of the one-on-one game time I've gotten with top players has been at smaller tournaments where there isn't as much to do outside of the event.
 

h0mebas3

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
424
But you get more "access" to top players at smaller tournaments because they tend to be busier at EVO. This is explicitly one of the reasons why I rank EVO lower than other events for mid-level players who are primarily focused on competition.

Most of the one-on-one game time I've gotten with top players has been at smaller tournaments where there isn't as much to do outside of the event.

I would argue that given how many pools there are for a given title, players do near as much standing around at EVO then any other major--particularly given that once round 1 and 2 are done (unless they are competing in multiple games) they become spectators like everyone else.

As far as "access" goes, I think it depends on who you want to talk to as simply saying "top player" is too broad in my opinion. For example, at a smaller tournament, the likelihood of Toshimichi Mori, Akira Nishitani or Yakeshi Yamanaka being present is almost non-existent--at EVO I walked up to each of them and had a conversation.Machabo more than likely won't be in attendance, and neither will BAS, Jeondding, Armada, YuYu, FAB, Problem-X or any other player who simply would have no reason to travel to a smaller event, except in rare circumstances.

So while I would concede there will always be "top players" of one kind or another at a smaller event, there are some players you will only have the opportunity to talk to at major events, and some, probably only at EVO.

Further, I can't see Nintendo bringing Smash Bros. Ultimate or Arc System Works brining Kill la Kill the Game: IF to a smaller tournament as it just wouldn't make good business sense. So if you're into that sort of thing, again, EVO is second to none.
 

Amedo310

Member
Nov 15, 2017
159
The true test of strength is beating Xiaohai in KOF.

That'll test the shit out of your reactions, fundamentals and everything else.

I would put beating Misterio in XIII without the iori inifinite next to beating Xiaohai in 98.

-------------------------------

Lil Majin was by far the most charismatic fg player at this EVO. I don't think any comes close to how presentable this guy was on stream.
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
3,910
Wow, no one is talking about SnakeEyes anymore? Where did he place in the SF Pools? Who eliminated him? Has he fallen from grace?

The fact that your entire esport career depends on some people at Capcom deciding if your main character deserves to be top or low tier doesnt get enough talk.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,046
The fact that your entire esport career depends on some people at Capcom deciding if your main character deserves to be top or low tier doesnt get enough talk.

Money/Pro player careers determining which characters should be high/low tier sounds like a bad idea. Also that's what you get if you're a character loyalist, the genre should reward those people who can switch characters and still perform at high level more than those who can only play a specific character at that level. You can't expect a single character to carry you in every game of the series.
 
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Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
I would argue that given how many pools there are for a given title, players do near as much standing around at EVO then any other major--particularly given that once round 1 and 2 are done (unless they are competing in multiple games) they become spectators like everyone else.

As far as "access" goes, I think it depends on who you want to talk to as simply saying "top player" is too broad in my opinion. For example, at a smaller tournament, the likelihood of Toshimichi Mori, Akira Nishitani or Yakeshi Yamanaka being present is almost non-existent--at EVO I walked up to each of them and had a conversation.Machabo more than likely won't be in attendance, and neither will BAS, Jeondding, Armada, YuYu, FAB, Problem-X or any other player who simply would have no reason to travel to a smaller event, except in rare circumstances.

So while I would concede there will always be "top players" of one kind or another at a smaller event, there are some players you will only have the opportunity to talk to at major events, and some, probably only at EVO.

Further, I can't see Nintendo bringing Smash Bros. Ultimate or Arc System Works brining Kill la Kill the Game: IF to a smaller tournament as it just wouldn't make good business sense. So if you're into that sort of thing, again, EVO is second to none.
First, most of those players (even internationals) and some of those vendor exhibitions have been present at plenty of other tournaments that I've attended.

Second, I have zero interest in just "talking" to "celebrities." My point of contention was that it's much more viable to get sessions in with skilled players that you can learn something from at other events.
 

Futaleufu

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
3,910
Money/Pro player career determining which characters should be high/low tier sounds like a bad idea.

That wasn't the point. A game with better balance would allow a broad range of viable characters and strategies and the esport pros would be able to adapt to those changes. In the current situation they can't even adapt, they have to change characters.

The fact that Daigo can't use Ryu and Snakeyes can't use Zangief isn't just a problem for them, it's a problem for the game itself.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,046
That wasn't the point. A game with better balance would allow a broad range of viable characters and strategies and the esport pros would be able to adapt to those changes. In the current situation they can't even adapt, they have to change characters.

The fact that Daigo can't use Ryu and Snakeyes can't use Zangief isn't just a problem for them, it's a problem for the game itself.

And that's an issue with every fighting game, including every SF. This isn't a new phenomenon, these guys know this going into the game. It's not for a lack of trying either, Capcom and all these developers try to balance it, but there's too many variables and too many unknowns due to the freeform nature of the genre.
 

BadWolf

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,148
I would put beating Misterio in XIII without the iori inifinite next to beating Xiaohai in 98.

Misterio from around 2015 was seriously nuts. I have never seen anyone else take full advantage of punishes and situational damage like he did back then.

An execution monster too with everything from Athena and Yuri's butt loops to Saiki 100% combos. He even had HD setups specifically designed to bait and break through stuff like Kim's up kicks.

Too bad he didn't make much of a splash in XIV, haven't seen him outside of some local (Chile?) weeklies.

Which is why I mentioned Xiaohai since he's still a legit monster in KOF (and his Iori is pretty much a team unto himself). Don't know how good Misterio is now.
 

MrCarter

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,509
The fact that Daigo can't use Ryu and Snakeyes can't use Zangief isn't just a problem for them, it's a problem for the game itself.

It's not a problem for Daigo. He plays Guile now (also played him in past SF games) and has been quite successful with him in SFV. In SF4, pro's also tended to go with "'mid-top tier" characters just like with this game.