RTTP: Revenge of the Sith (It's still pretty decent, better than TFA)

BossAttack · Aug 8, 2018

Surfinn said:
Right, that's something that always bugged me too. It's just.. Assumed that "welp, I guess I'm evil now and I'm serving this guy who fed me lies, ruined my life and failed to deliver on the one promise that I used to betray the good guys". It's just never addressed.. Ever

He's got no reason to follow the emperor.. To not jump on the nearest ship and get outta town.

Literally everything was hinged on Padme. His new powers, empire, world he wanted to build.. It all rested on the assumption that Palp had a way to save her from death.

Um, it makes perfect sense. First, as already stated Anakin was already full of hatred regarding all aspects of Jedi life, so he didn't just turn to the Dark Side for Padme. He had other reasons, but Padme was the final push. Second, Palpatine was the only one willing to help him with Padme. He never directly stated that he knew the secret to saving Padme's life, only that he was the only one that could help him do it. Once he offed Windu, Anakin had to stick with Palpatine as he was the only one who could possibly gain him the knowledge he needed. Also, as stated before, joining Palpatine meant being able to finally live in freedom. He could finally openly express his love for Padme and not hide it like a dirty secret. Third, Anakin always wanted power and Palpatine was going to give him ultimate power by switching sides. Which ties to the last point, Anakin was already willing to betray Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself alongside Padme. So, it's not like he was some blind slave in his mind, he was fully ready to ice Palpatine if he couldn't offer him anything and just take everything over himself.

As for the buzz droids, all I can say is that I personally like the whole sequence and think it fits perfectly with the tone of the opening. I think it's silly to try and argue which goofy sequence in SW are better than the others. I'd rather watch the buzz droids ten times over than watch Finn and Rose ride through Canto Bight on CGI horses. Goofiness is goofiness, it's pretty much impossible to argue which is better, you're just advocating for your personal taste of goofy nonsense.

Deleted member 21339 · Aug 8, 2018

BossAttack said:
It's a great, fun action sequence as Obi-Wan and Anakin attempt to deal with a unique problem with actual tension.

There was nothing great about that sequence. And there was no tension either.

Prine · Aug 8, 2018

Drewton said:
People who think ROTS is a good movie tend to overlook that it completely botches its main point, Anakin's turn.

Nope, the reason Anakin rejected the Jedi are similar to Luke's, both Skywalkers disagreed with the Jedi way, but one didnt leave the light in doing so.

Infact, Luke seems like he resents the Jedi for not protecting his father and allowing his power to be exploited.

Teeny · Aug 8, 2018

Surfinn said:
Right, that's something that always bugged me too. It's just.. Assumed that "welp, I guess I'm evil now and I'm serving this guy who fed me lies, ruined my life and failed to deliver on the one promise that I used to betray the good guys". It's just never addressed.. Ever

He's got no reason to follow the emperor.. To not jump on the nearest ship and get outta town.

Literally everything was hinged on Padme. His new powers, empire, world he wanted to build.. It all rested on the assumption that Palp had a way to save her from death.

Anakin's relationship with Palpatine is so weird for this very reason (it also bugged me).

I always figured that Vader had an overwhelming need for control and order and turning to the dark side was a means to an end for him - he wanted a permanent end to conflict. He believed that Republic was corrupt and needed to be replaced and that the Jedi Order were not only incompetent but willfully propping up a rotten government for their own agenda. The Order shouldn't have crumbled due to ignorance, it should have catastrophically split so that there were Jedi on both sides of the conflict - giving Anakin a firm motivation for turning against the Jedi and a proper justification for his on screen actions. The Clone Wars should have been a catalyst for all of that rather than the bizarre power play it turned out to be.

Having an element about Vader doing what he thinks is best for his family does make sense. After all, his redemption was only through love for his son above everything else. But there needed to be more to it as it's immediately undone with Padme's death which is, in itself, a plot contradiction within the entire saga.

I feel like these things were hinted at in the PT - Dooku's existence, for example, and the political conversations in Attack Of The Clones. But for whatever reason, it was poorly executed and what you get on film is a jumbled contradictory mess that manages to ruin characterisation of many key OT characters.

Sapiens · Aug 8, 2018

Revenge of the Sith was THE most boring theatre going experience of my life. The film was pure laziness. Even the ILM dudes weren't giving it there 100%.

At least TFA and TLJ were mediocre enough to keep me somewhat invested.

Old Luke · Aug 8, 2018

Didn't like ROTS that much when first watched, but the movie grew on me on the last years. Still think it's the best of the prequels but they rank lower than every other movie for me (didn't watch Solo yet).

Prine said:
Infact, Luke seems like he resents the Jedi for not protecting his father and allowing his power to be exploited.

Yeah, that's one of the things that I liked about Luke on TLJ. It kind of evolved his relationship with Anakin, and also made it clear he truly saw the humanity his father still had as Vader.

deathsaber · Aug 8, 2018

Gifmaker said:
There is a problem with his turning that I personally consider far graver even. Being that Anakin/Vader has zero reason to be loyal to Palpatine or to believe in the Dark Side or its superiority. Palpatine essentially promised one thing to Vader with his fall, that he would be able to save his wife – and they failed in that regard. That leaves nothing for Vader to be encouraged about his decision to join Palpatine. It does not even make sense for him to accept him as his master or to believe in the power of the Dark Side, because right after Vader pledged his allegiance to Palpatine, he was sent to destroy the Jedi order. He did not receive any training, any detailed instructions, any obscure Sith knowledge about battling your opponents. He was already the most powerful Jedi before his turn, and all the strength he displayed when he raided the temple were the results of his own training and work for years and had nothing to do with Palpatine and the Sith order. And when he fought his former teacher, he promptly lost.

Essentially, in their arrangement, Palpatine brought nothing of worth to the table ultimately. The one thing he promised, he failed to deliver, and everything else Anakin already was capable of on his own. The only thing Vader got out of the deal in the end was that Palpatine found him, saved his life and put him in his suit, though after being humiliated by his defeat and learning about Padmés demise, it's arguable how thankful Vader would be for that. Also, it does not seem like Vader feels like he has a lifedept to the Emperor. Why he feels superior and believes in the Dark Side in the OT makes zero sense after ROTS, except for the explanation that Vader is being very delusional constantly and desperately lying to himself in order to cope with his pitiful existence. And that idea doesn't make the character stronger or more engaging, on the contrary.

You, I think the biggest failing of the prequels probably is Anakin, Padme, the acting performances of both, and the depiction of their relationship. All were just executed very badly, and as such, the payoff of Anakin going dark and becoming Vader just doesn't have the believe-ability or impact that it should because the performances from Christensen and Portman suck.

The intended story being told is that Padme is literally EVERYTHING to Anakin, so with Anakin certain she was going to die in childbirth, and a possible solution/cure being presented by Palps, he is literally willing to turn his back on the world, conspire with a sith, and go on a murder spree if it meant being the only way of saving his beloved. (and maybe he was further egged on a little by the jedi's own failures in dealing with Anakin and not recognizing Palpatine's manipulations until it was way too late. When Anakin stops Mace Windu from killing Palps, he knows he's doing the wrong thing, but it doesn't matter if it will save Padme.

Then when Anakin has his angry moment with Padme, choking her when she isn't on board with his actions, and after taking the big loss to Obiwan, leaving him crippled and burned, and being told by Palps that HE killed Padme, Anakin pretty much has nothing to live for, other than to be the monster he has become, which is why he becomes the Darth Vader we all know. But underneath all the hardness, murder, mayhem, and menace, there is a lot of sadness and self loathing going on.

FeD · Aug 8, 2018

I don't agree with the statement that ROTS has Higher Highs compared to TFA. The first act in TFA beats basically any act in any other Star Wars film. For me personally it's the best act in a Star Wars film period. Honestly I feel TFA gets criticized way too harshly for the retreading the happens in the backend of the film.

Now I enjoyed ROTS when it came out, and I still find a lot to enjoy rewatching it these days. I'm a sucker for everything involving the production design involving the prequels, they really knocked it out of the park there. Combine that with Williams bringing his absolute A-game and those two things alone makes rewatching it enjoyable. McDiarmid is fantastic as well. But still I would never place ROTS above TFA on any list i'd make.

Kyoufu · Aug 8, 2018

Surfinn said:
What

The movie you stan for is filled to the brim with goofy comedy that ruins it entirely.

WadiumArcadium · Aug 8, 2018

Kyoufu said:
The movie you stan for is filled to the brim with goofy comedy that ruins it entirely.

Somehow this looping GIF feels less drawn out than the actual scene.

Deleted member 7051 · Aug 8, 2018

Drewton said:
People who think ROTS is a good movie tend to overlook that it completely botches its main point, Anakin's turn.

That's why The Clone Wars is less spinoff and more required viewing. It explains Anakin's turn much more effectively.

He hated the Jedi but had extreme attachment issues so he couldn't just let go. He didn't trust the Jedi and constantly ignored their orders to do his own thing, which usually turned out well since he was a war hero, but the Jedi didn't trust him either and constantly lied to him.

Anakin wanted to leave the Order, but couldn't bring himself to do it. This was itself a clever touch because Obi-Wan would have gladly left the Order if Satine asked and Ahsoka had no trouble leaving the Order behind when she realised they had no loyalty. Anakin was his own worst enemy.

Palpatine offered him an easy way out, which allowed Anakin to convince himself that the Jedi were evil and needed to be destroyed before they tried to take over the Republic.

In a way, Anakin knowingly allowed himself to be used by Palpatine because it would get him what he wanted. Then it all backfired on Mustafar because Anakin lost everything he had been fighting for, so all he had left was Palpatine. That's why he became so loyal, although he never really trusted Palpatine and once Luke came into the picture his reliance on his old master began to falter.

Surfinn · Aug 8, 2018

BossAttack said:
Um, it makes perfect sense. First, as already stated Anakin was already full of hatred regarding all aspects of Jedi life, so he didn't just turn to the Dark Side for Padme. He had other reasons, but Padme was the final push. Second, Palpatine was the only one willing to help him with Padme. He never directly stated that he knew the secret to saving Padme's life, only that he was the only one that could help him do it. Once he offed Windu, Anakin had to stick with Palpatine as he was the only one who could possibly gain him the knowledge he needed. Also, as stated before, joining Palpatine meant being able to finally live in freedom. He could finally openly express his love for Padme and not hide it like a dirty secret. Third, Anakin always wanted power and Palpatine was going to give him ultimate power by switching sides. Which ties to the last point, Anakin was already willing to betray Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself alongside Padme. So, it's not like he was some blind slave in his mind, he was fully ready to ice Palpatine if he couldn't offer him anything and just take everything over himself.

As for the buzz droids, all I can say is that I personally like the whole sequence and think it fits perfectly with the tone of the opening. I think it's silly to try and argue which goofy sequence in SW are better than the others. I'd rather watch the buzz droids ten times over than watch Finn and Rose ride through Canto Bight on CGI horses. Goofiness is goofiness, it's pretty much impossible to argue which is better, you're just advocating for your personal taste of goofy nonsense.

Of course he had other reasons. The problem is that the film completely disregards them and eventually replaces them all with saving Padme. Then once Anakin realizes he's fucked and the one thing Palp promised he lied about "I have the power to save the one you love", he just blindly follows him and becomes a baddie for no reason at all. It's sloppy as fuck. He's got absolutely no reason to stay. Yes, Palp directly states that he has the power to save Padme, a few times actually.

He's got nothing left, no reason to follow Palp. And every reason to betray him for what he's done. Instead, he blindly follows him and only betrays him decades later, for a completely different reason.

Teeny said:
Anakin's relationship with Palpatine is so weird for this very reason (it also bugged me).

I always figured that Vader had an overwhelming need for control and order and turning to the dark side was a means to an end for him - he wanted a permanent end to conflict. He believed that Republic was corrupt and needed to be replaced and that the Jedi Order were not only incompetent but willfully propping up a rotten government for their own agenda. The Order shouldn't have crumbled due to ignorance, it should have catastrophically split so that there were Jedi on both sides of the conflict - giving Anakin a firm motivation for turning against the Jedi and a proper justification for his on screen actions. The Clone Wars should have been a catalyst for all of that rather than the bizarre power play it turned out to be.

Having an element about Vader doing what he thinks is best for his family does make sense. After all, his redemption was only through love for his son above everything else. But there needed to be more to it as it's immediately undone with Padme's death which is, in itself, a plot contradiction within the entire saga.

I feel like these things were hinted at in the PT - Dooku's existence, for example, and the political conversations in Attack Of The Clones. But for whatever reason, it was poorly executed and what you get on film is a jumbled contradictory mess that manages to ruin characterisation of many key OT characters.

Yeah. Once Padme dies and he's betrayed by Palp, in a matter of hours (and loses everything), he just.. Follows him and becomes the Vader we see in the OT, standing alongside Palp, watching the death star being built? What

Kyoufu said:
The movie you stan for is filled to the brim with goofy comedy that ruins it entirely.

Lol alright, I stan for TLJ because I can differentiate a shitty bug swatting sequence that negates the tone of fighting in SW's biggest space battle and one liners/simple moments that actually fit the universe. The examples brought up don't detract from the movie (Finn yelling, Porgs in the falcon, Poe putting his foot through a ship).

Please don't use that term if you don't know what it means. I've got plenty of complaints with TLJ that I've voiced on this forum.. You're embarrassing yourself.

Halbrand · Aug 8, 2018

Prine said:
Nope, the reason Anakin rejected the Jedi are similar to Luke's, both Skywalkers disagreed with the Jedi way, but one didnt leave the light in doing so.

Infact, Luke seems like he resents the Jedi for not protecting his father and allowing his power to be exploited.

Although I'm not sure that's how I would describe it, the idea and motivation behind Anakin's turn wasn't bad. But the execution was absolutely awful. He switches to killing all the Jedi and younglings like a light switch and goes as far to believe that he himself is actually the only Jedi who had no knowledge of a plot to kill Palpatine and all the Senators.

The scene where Anakin tells Windu that Palpatine is a Sith Lord is also terrible.

Calamari41 · Aug 8, 2018

I've always enjoyed Episode III and think that it should have been Episode II, with the actual Episode III being about the consolidation of the Empire and the Jedi Purge. The actual Episode I should have been a better kickoff of a better version of the Clone Wars focusing on a real brotherhood between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Episode III tells a good story, but as others have said, everything leading up to it was mediocre at best so it doesn't have as much punch as it should. If the audience truly cared about Anakin, Obi-wan, Padme, and their relationships, the movie would have been a great "turning point" chapter in the middle of the prequel trilogy.

The main fix I would make would be to do away with the whole "Anakin was literally tricked into going Dark" and give him a legitimate reason that the audience can identify with and at least understand. I've always thought it would be better if he went to the dark side to brutally end the war, wanting to save lives in the long run. Maybe Anakin wants to do something illegal and destructive to take out Grievous, but the Jedi Council forbids him from doing it. Then, after Grievous slips away, he kills Padme and Anakin gives up on the Jedi. He goes to Palpatine, who has been grooming him on the down low, and they take control of the army from the Jedi and melt half a planet and a billion lives to kill Grievous and all of the Separatist leadership, ending the war conclusively. After that you have the Anakin/Sidious vs Jedi conflict and you take it from there. That's just off the top of my head but I think it makes a ton more sense than "kill these children and your bad dreams might not come true."

There's no way that an Anakin with any amount of intelligence or agency at all could listen to Palpatine say "well actually I don't know how to do it yet, but if we work together I'm sure we can figure something out" and not see it as an utter and game-changing betrayal. The fact that he goes along with him like a dog from that point just does not work.

Halbrand · Aug 8, 2018

Calamari41 said:
He goes to Palpatine, who has been grooming him on the down low, and they take control of the army from the Jedi and melt half a planet and a billion lives to kill Grievous and all of the Separatist leadership, ending the war conclusively. After that you have the Anakin/Sidious vs Jedi conflict and you take it from there.

I'd still put Anakin's turn in III but I'd have it focused on a kind of Jedi Civil War being led by Jedi dead set against Palpatine and being militarized, and are labelled as Separatists. Anakin would be assigned to hunt down these Jedi and has his first Jedi kill.

Surfinn · Aug 8, 2018

Calamari41 said:
I've always enjoyed Episode III and think that it should have been Episode II, with the actual Episode III being about the consolidation of the Empire and the Jedi Purge. The actual Episode I should have been a better kickoff of a better version of the Clone Wars focusing on a real brotherhood between Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Episode III tells a good story, but as others have said, everything leading up to it was mediocre at best so it doesn't have as much punch as it should. If the audience truly cared about Anakin, Obi-wan, Padme, and their relationships, the movie would have been a great "turning point" chapter in the middle of the prequel trilogy.

The main fix I would make would be to do away with the whole "Anakin was literally tricked into going Dark" and give him a legitimate reason that the audience can identify with and at least understand. I've always thought it would be better if he went to the dark side to brutally end the war, wanting to save lives in the long run. Maybe Anakin wants to do something illegal and destructive to take out Grievous, but the Jedi Council forbids him from doing it. Then, after Grievous slips away, he kills Padme and Anakin gives up on the Jedi. He goes to Palpatine, who has been grooming him on the down low, and they take control of the army from the Jedi and melt half a planet and a billion lives to kill Grievous and all of the Separatist leadership, ending the war conclusively. After that you have the Anakin/Sidious vs Jedi conflict and you take it from there. That's just off the top of my head but I think it makes a ton more sense than "kill these children and your bad dreams might not come true."

There's no way that an Anakin with any amount of intelligence or agency at all could listen to Palpatine say "well actually I don't know how to do it yet, but if we work together I'm sure we can figure something out" and not see it as an utter and game-changing betrayal. The fact that he goes along with him like a dog from that point just does not work.

Yup, agreed with pretty much all of this.

There are a million ways to turn him into Vader and still have Palp groom him. GL chose one of the worst routes imaginable.

MegaManTrigger · Aug 8, 2018

Surfinn said:
The thing is, there are a multitude of reasons Anakin could turn, and GL actually laid some of that groundwork in all three films. BossAttack is right in that Anakin displays a lot of these behaviors that could contribute to his fall.

Here's the problem though. ROTS doesn't ultimately explore them in a way that contributes to his formation of Darth Vader.

As you correctly point out, there ends up being only one motivation that ultimately turns him: saving Padme. GL does an absolutely abysmal job of connecting the threads he established.. Anakin's unpredictability, rage, impatience, inability to find his place amongst the Jedi..

It's all reduced and consolidated into Padme's fate. Palp's manipulations are all about her and convincing Anakin that he needs him to save her. It's a shame because it takes over all of Anakin's motivations and faults that lead to his fall.

If you remove saving Padme from the equation, you have a much better and convincing angle to work. Saving his wife overshadows every other reason Anakin has for turning to the dark side and ultimately becoming Vader.

It's a sloppy transition to the OT. We never hear about Padme, it's never referenced. It also makes Vader's redemption sloppy, as the very thing that transforms him from Anakin to Vader is never mentioned in his redemption. It's all about Luke. She's never even mentioned in the entirety of the OT aside from Leia mentioning that she remembers her being pretty.

In short, Palp's manipulation in ROTS to swing Anakin to the dark side reduces and simplifies his turn unnecessarily. Anakin's transition into Vader is watered down by only focusing on Padme while abandoning his faults that were previously established in the films.

I think you put it much better than I could have, which is what my biggest problem with the movie is. There is so much groundwork laid in for a more believable turn to the dark side as you mentioned. But because there wasn't much focus on them, we're left stuck with the vision of Padmé's death being the main driver for why Anakin turns to the dark side. Which sucks because in an earlier dialogue about the differences between the Sith and the Jedi, Anakin mentions to Palpatine that the Sith are passion-driven and selfish vs. the Jedi being selfless and driven by emotional apathy. That would have been the perfect way to start off the turn to the dark side, by having Anakin go from being a selfless character towards being driven by his passions and emotions, which in turn, would corrupt him. So you have more convincing major character arc while also having the smaller things like Shmi + Padmé's death, the Jedi Order being distrusting of him, his perceived lack of power, as added contributors toward his descent into darkness.

Halbrand · Aug 8, 2018

Anakin turning to the dark side to save Padme was actually only added after an initial screening with Lucas's friends. I'm curious what the first cut was like.

Another big issue with the prequels is that after The Phantom Menace, we never see Anakin do anything particularly amazing, especially considering he's apparently the Chosen One. There's a lot of talk about Anakin's great power but we never see it. His greatest feats are piloting.

Maligna · Aug 8, 2018

deathsaber said:
But underneath all the hardness, murder, mayhem, and menace, there is a lot of sadness and self loathing going on.

You know I was watching Attack of the Clones last week and I noticed that Anakin was acting a little bit like an Incel.

liquidtmd · Aug 8, 2018

Revenge is a bloated film that lacks wit, charm and squanders its execution of a laid framework as explained far better by other posters here.

When I saw TFA once in the cinema I enjoyed it a fair old bit. It's better directed, Daisy puts in a good turn, and whilst I find the TFO holding a balance of power that I feel is just lazy 'keep the status quo of the OT', there's a lot to like about it

However if I had a free night and had to watch one, I think I'd choose ROTS. I don't know what's wrong with me

I think at this point it's more fun to hate watch. Send halp

rokkerkory · Aug 8, 2018

No freaking way. TFA is far from perfect but RotS was pathetic.

Rogue One is better than both however.

Crossing Eden · Aug 8, 2018

liquidtmd said:
Revenge is a bloated film that lacks wit, charm and squanders its execution of a laid framework as explained far better by other posters here.

When I saw TFA once in the cinema I enjoyed it a fair old bit. It's better directed, Daisy puts in a good turn, and whilst I find the TFO holding a balance of power that I feel is just lazy 'keep the status quo of the OT', there's a lot to like about it

However if I had a free night and had to watch one, I think I'd choose ROTS. I don't know what's wrong with me

I think at this point it's more fun to hate watch. Send halp

Getting drunk and watching ROTS while making fun of it is definitely more enjoyable time then the emotional rollercoaster that is TFA. I can't watch TFA without crying at least once. These characters are so goddamn likeable and relatable and the old cast put in that work:

Which is why it hurts so much to see them go:

Revenge of the Sith gives you nothing to relate to or empathize with other than seeing the jedi die, and lets be honest, in this instance, the jedi weren't characters, they're just cool looking jedi, fluff. You watch a film to be emotionally invested, otherwise you're just watching stuff happen. ThIs is essentially the red wedding of the SW franchise and hands down the best edited section of the prequels, yet it falls flat aside from the visuals and chilling music, and ofc like so many moments in the prequels there's a pointless cameo.

Kyoufu · Aug 8, 2018

Obi-wan telling Anakin he was a brother to him and that he loved him had more emotional weight behind it than anything in TFA, including Han's death.

liquidtmd · Aug 8, 2018

Crossing Eden said:
Getting drunk and watching ROTS while making fun of it is definitely more enjoyable time then the emotional rollercoaster that is TFA. I can't watch TFA without crying at least once. These characters are so goddamn likeable and relatable and the old cast put in that work:

There's an...earnestness I think to TFA. It feels somewhat forced in places, but I really appreciated at least the vibe JJ is going for. I know it's easy to be cynical and many have issues with TFA, but I felt engaged and it was nice to see Harrison (IMO) remotely trying to capture an essence.

RoTS is campus, crappy schlock but you're right - a few beers and watching it and rolling eyes at some of the dialogue, its fun in a different way that ultimately I want on a night off

Crossing Eden · Aug 8, 2018

liquidtmd said:
There's an...earnestness I think to TFA. It feels somewhat forced in places, but I really appreciated at least the vibe JJ is going for. I know it's easy to be cynical and many have issues with TFA, but I felt engaged and it was nice to see Harrison (IMO) remotely trying to capture an essence.

I feel the backlash against TFA reminding everyone why they loved SW in the first place is so misplaced. Like peak cynical nerd/cinemasins generation.

RoTS is campus, crappy schlock but you're right - a few beers and watching it and rolling eyes at some of the dialogue, its fun in a different way that ultimately I want on a night off

ROTS is fun in the same way that watching one of the live action resident evil movies is fun.

MegaManTrigger · Aug 8, 2018

Drewton said:
Anakin turning to the dark side to save Padme was actually only added after an initial screening with Lucas's friends. I'm curious what the first cut was like.

Another big issue with the prequels is that after The Phantom Menace, we never see Anakin do anything particularly amazing, especially considering he's apparently the Chosen One. There's a lot of talk about Anakin's great power but we never see it. His greatest feats are piloting.

Wonder what the first cut is like too.

Also, that's been a bad habit of GL's in the prequels, where he has characters tell what they're feeling/experiencing instead of showing it.

Kyoufu said:
Obi-wan telling Anakin he was a brother to him and that he loved him had more emotional weight behind it than anything in TFA, including Han's death.

How did it have any weight? If you break down their actions in Episodes II-III (because I doesn't really count given the lack of relationship there), there's nothing brotherly about their relationship. Again, GL's problem of telling and now showing rears its ugly head. And no, don't tell me to watch Clone Wars to get information about something that should have been in the movies. I feel like people lean on that too much without realizing the flaws in writing.

Halbrand · Aug 8, 2018

MegaManTrigger said:
Wonder what the first cut is like too.

I can't say for sure that it was better but I think Vader's turn was more logic based - you'd have the deleted scenes of Anakin standing with Palpatine turning against Padme because of her friends in the Senate. And then Anakin was already with Palpatine when the Jedi came to arrest him for not stopping the war - Palpatine took Anakin's lightsaber to defend himself, Anakin decided to step in at the end.

UltraMagnus · Aug 8, 2018

BossAttack said:
Um, it makes perfect sense. First, as already stated Anakin was already full of hatred regarding all aspects of Jedi life, so he didn't just turn to the Dark Side for Padme. He had other reasons, but Padme was the final push. Second, Palpatine was the only one willing to help him with Padme. He never directly stated that he knew the secret to saving Padme's life, only that he was the only one that could help him do it. Once he offed Windu, Anakin had to stick with Palpatine as he was the only one who could possibly gain him the knowledge he needed. Also, as stated before, joining Palpatine meant being able to finally live in freedom. He could finally openly express his love for Padme and not hide it like a dirty secret. Third, Anakin always wanted power and Palpatine was going to give him ultimate power by switching sides. Which ties to the last point, Anakin was already willing to betray Palpatine and rule the galaxy himself alongside Padme. So, it's not like he was some blind slave in his mind, he was fully ready to ice Palpatine if he couldn't offer him anything and just take everything over himself.

As for the buzz droids, all I can say is that I personally like the whole sequence and think it fits perfectly with the tone of the opening. I think it's silly to try and argue which goofy sequence in SW are better than the others. I'd rather watch the buzz droids ten times over than watch Finn and Rose ride through Canto Bight on CGI horses. Goofiness is goofiness, it's pretty much impossible to argue which is better, you're just advocating for your personal taste of goofy nonsense.

Anakin's "hatred" of the Jedi is not fully shown in the movies at all. He goes from a relatively dutiful Jedi to full blown child murderer in the span of 5 minutes. There's no scene in any of the movies where he has any kind of conflict with Yoda or Obi-Wan or Mace until he basically makes the decision to turn to the Dark Side, until then all of his scenes with those characters are more or less agreeable.

Not everyone watched the freaking Clone Wars cartoon and that shouldn't be a prerequisite at all either before anyone brings that up. Yes I'm sure they developed his character more in the cartoon, but that should not be required viewing.

Halbrand · Aug 8, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
Not everyone watched the freaking Clone Wars cartoon and that shouldn't be a prerequisite at all either before anyone brings that up.

Yes, thank you

Watership · Aug 8, 2018

Bor Gullet said:
Snoke as a character is a complete wet fart. We never see him do shit or live up to his reputation as this "ancient powerful evil."

Rian Johnson saw this and had Snoke killed halfway through TLJ.

Snoke was a huge mystery in TFA, one that was supposed to be expanded on and explored in future movies. Who was he? Where did he come from? What was his goals? Ryan Johnson did nothing with that mystery and just wasted the character by killing him off. Any failings of the character rest with him.

BossAttack · Aug 8, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
Anakin's "hatred" of the Jedi is not fully shown in the movies at all. He goes from a relatively dutiful Jedi to full blown child murderer in the span of 5 minutes. There's no scene in any of the movies where he has any kind of conflict with Yoda or Obi-Wan or Mace until he basically makes the decision to turn to the Dark Side, until then all of his scenes with those characters are more or less agreeable.

Not everyone watched the freaking Clone Wars cartoon and that shouldn't be a prerequisite at all either before anyone brings that up. Yes I'm sure they developed his character more in the cartoon, but that should not be required viewing.

You mean like that scene where he blows up in front of the whole Council for not making him a Master?

UltraMagnus · Aug 8, 2018

BossAttack said:
You mean like that scene where he blows up in front of the whole Council for not making him a Master?

To call that a "blow up" is pretty laughable, the movies are stitled entirely in their emotion.

He has no relationship with Yoda or Mace based on what's in the movies.

Barely one with Obi-Wan, the romance with Padme is the worst written romance in a mainstream blockbuster film, even things like Transformers do that better.

These needed to be the foundational pieces for actual drama, but they are all full blown failures.

Kyoufu · Aug 8, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
here's no scene in any of the movies where he has any kind of conflict with Yoda or Obi-Wan or Mace until he basically makes the decision to turn to the Dark Side, until then all of his scenes with those characters are more or less agreeable.

Anakin goes to Yoda asking for help and guidance, but he's unable to tell him about his real problems because being married is against the Jedi code, so Yoda can only tell him to suppress his feelings, which in turn makes Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-wan and the entire Jedi Order entirely useless to Anakin. George Lucas makes this abundantly clear throughout the trilogy.

Anakin betrayed the Jedi because they only held him back. There was no benefit to being a Jedi. He was denied the rank of master, told to suppress his emotions, feelings and fears while those he loved suffered.

Vic Damone Jr. · Aug 8, 2018

I want more movies during the Jedi golden age.

zoukka · Aug 8, 2018

I get a few laughs out of RotS at least, TFA is just a tiring, lifeless blockbuster. I kinda enjoyed it in the cinema, but it has worsened so much with each rewatch.

UltraMagnus · Aug 8, 2018

Kyoufu said:
Anakin goes to Yoda asking for help and guidance, but he's unable to tell him about his real problems because being married is against the Jedi code, so Yoda can only tell him to suppress his feelings, which in turn makes Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-wan and the entire Jedi Order entirely useless to Anakin. George Lucas makes this abundantly clear throughout the trilogy.

That's poor storytelling IMO. They have one total scene together in the entire trilogy and its basically Yoda lecturing Anakin with no real reaction from Anakin.

And it features basically another staple of the prequels -- no freaking movement. Its just two characters sitting ... talking to each other.

How much better would that scene be if it begins with Anakin doing Jedi exercises against training droids or other Jedi, Yoda watching from a distance, noticing Anakin is clearly upset about something, not on his game, etc. he moves towards Anakin and wants him to come with him and meditate, Anakin reluctantly agrees, but as they try to meditate, Anakin can't bring himself to focus. Yoda and Anakin discuss the nature of the Force, there's a back and forth where Anakin questions Yoda on several things, the conversation becomes almost like a debate with Anakin clearly not satisfied with all the answers he's being given, etc.

I mean just basic dramatic things, these movies desperately needed a rewrite.

Lunar Wolf · Aug 8, 2018

Surfinn said:
Of course he had other reasons. The problem is that the film completely disregards them and eventually replaces them all with saving Padme. Then once Anakin realizes he's fucked and the one thing Palp promised he lied about "I have the power to save the one you love", he just blindly follows him and becomes a baddie for no reason at all. It's sloppy as fuck. He's got absolutely no reason to stay. Yes, Palp directly states that he has the power to save Padme, a few times actually.

He's got nothing left, no reason to follow Palp. And every reason to betray him for what he's done. Instead, he blindly follows him and only betrays him decades later, for a completely different reason.

Yeah. Once Padme dies and he's betrayed by Palp, in a matter of hours (and loses everything), he just.. Follows him and becomes the Vader we see in the OT, standing alongside Palp, watching the death star being built? What

Lol alright, I stan for TLJ because I can differentiate a shitty bug swatting sequence that negates the tone of fighting in SW's biggest space battle and one liners/simple moments that actually fit the universe. The examples brought up don't detract from the movie (Finn yelling, Porgs in the falcon, Poe putting his foot through a ship).

Please don't use that term if you don't know what it means. I've got plenty of complaints with TLJ that I've voiced on this forum.. You're embarrassing yourself.

Vader has nothing after Padme dies besides being Palpatine's # 2. And Vader doesn't have the power to crush Palpatine.

What else could he do? At least this way, he has a large degree of control over an empire.

Raptor · Aug 8, 2018

Kyoufu said:
Anakin goes to Yoda asking for help and guidance, but he's unable to tell him about his real problems because being married is against the Jedi code, so Yoda can only tell him to suppress his feelings, which in turn makes Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-wan and the entire Jedi Order entirely useless to Anakin. George Lucas makes this abundantly clear throughout the trilogy.

Anakin betrayed the Jedi because they only held him back. There was no benefit to being a Jedi. He was denied the rank of master, told to suppress his emotions, feelings and fears while those he loved suffered.

From his point of view the Jedi are evil?

:P

Deleted member 1120 · Aug 8, 2018

No way is Revenge of the Sith better than TFA.

Lunar Wolf · Aug 8, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
Anakin's "hatred" of the Jedi is not fully shown in the movies at all. He goes from a relatively dutiful Jedi to full blown child murderer in the span of 5 minutes. There's no scene in any of the movies where he has any kind of conflict with Yoda or Obi-Wan or Mace until he basically makes the decision to turn to the Dark Side, until then all of his scenes with those characters are more or less agreeable.

Not everyone watched the freaking Clone Wars cartoon and that shouldn't be a prerequisite at all either before anyone brings that up. Yes I'm sure they developed his character more in the cartoon, but that should not be required viewing.

Eh, Anakin was already committing genocide as of AOTC. To say that Anakin flips in ROTS is ignoring what he did in AOTC. He's killed children before in rage. The second time, he has to kill them for Padme.

MegaManTrigger · Aug 8, 2018

The Gunslinger said:
Vader has nothing after Padme dies besides being Palpatine's # 2. And Vader doesn't have the power to crush Palpatine.

What else could he do? At least this way, he has a large degree of control over an empire.

Except we never got any indication that Anakin cares that much about the Republic/controlling an Empire alongside Palpatine. As ROTS communicated, the biggest reason he was driven to the Dark Side is because of Padmé, and when she's gone, he's still okay with being a member of the Dark Side?

That entire motivation is such bad writing.

BossAttack · Aug 8, 2018

UltraMagnus said:
To call that a "blow up" is pretty laughable, the movies are stitled entirely in their emotion.

He has no relationship with Yoda or Mace based on what's in the movies.

Barely one with Obi-Wan, the romance with Padme is the worst written romance in a mainstream blockbuster film, even things like Transformers do that better.

These needed to be the foundational pieces for actual drama, but they are all full blown failures.

He yells at the Council and they all react with embarrassment and a mix of loathing, they see this as another clear example as to why he's not ready to be a Master. It is by every definition, a "blow up."

Sephzilla · Aug 8, 2018

Anakin's turn to the dark side was so poorly handled.

For as shit as Attack of the Clones is, that movie at least set the foundation for a better turn that ultimately was ignored

Lunar Wolf · Aug 8, 2018

Metalingus said:
No way is Revenge of the Sith better than TFA.

It's funnier and the story is meatier. TFA's story is kind of barebones.

UltraMagnus · Aug 8, 2018

The Gunslinger said:
Eh, Anakin was already committing genocide as of AOTC. To say that Anakin flips in ROTS is ignoring what he did in AOTC. He's killed children before in rage. The second time, he has to kill them for Padme.

And then he snaps back to being relatively a dutiful Jedi.

Lets be honest, Lucas had no real idea what he was doing with this character. He does bad things more because "well time to be evil cause he has to turn to Darth Vader", but the emotional arc the character is given is in no way believable.

The OT Star Wars did that far better with Luke you could feel his ups and downs, back and forths.

Anakin is either a fairly subdued character or a mass murdering psychopath. There's no real in between.

Kyoufu · Aug 8, 2018

Raptor said:
From his point of view the Jedi are evil?

:P

I mean, yeah, not necessarily "evil" but the Jedi Order were no saints.

This is a good video that BossAttack posted in a different thread but it analyses the Jedi code's shortcomings. It's worth a watch!

Luke's victory in ROTJ was only possible because he went against what Yoda and Obi-wan, who were still stuck in their old ways, were telling him to do the whole time in the OT.

Lunar Wolf · Aug 8, 2018

MegaManTrigger said:
Except we never got any indication that Anakin cares that much about the Republic/controlling an Empire alongside Palpatine. As ROTS communicated, the biggest reason he was driven to the Dark Side is because of Padmé, and when she's gone, he's still okay with being a member of the Dark Side?

That entire motivation is such bad writing.

"I'm not the Jedi I should be. I want more but I know I shouldn't."

He's completely power-hungry.

Also AOTC pretty much states that Anakin is in favor of a strongman to set things right and he's frustrated by the slowness of the Senate.

Raptor · Aug 8, 2018

Kyoufu said:
I mean, yeah, not necessarily "evil" but the Jedi Order were no saints.

This is a good video that BossAttack posted in a different thread but it analyses the Jedi code's shortcomings. It's worth a watch!

Luke's victory in ROTJ was only possible because he went against what Yoda and Obi-wan, who were still stuck in their old ways, were telling him to do the whole time in the OT.

I agree with you, I was just messing around with that quote :P

MegaManTrigger · Aug 8, 2018

BossAttack said:
He yells at the Council and they all react with embarrassment and a mix of loathing, they see this as another clear example as to why he's not ready to be a Master. It is by every definition, a "blow up."

That's "yelling"? All he does is state his problems with not being a Jedi Master despite being part of the Council. He's about as calm as he can be. Maybe this is an acting error or script error, but the only thing "angry" about him is him talking back.

UltraMagnus · Aug 8, 2018

BossAttack said:
He yells at the Council and they all react with embarrassment and a mix of loathing, they see this as another clear example as to why he's not ready to be a Master. It is by every definition, a "blow up."

The Clone Wars cartoon even though I haven't watched them all and won't from what I can tell do Anakin's character far more justice, this kind of stuff is laughable.

You're going to become a mass murderer on the basis of this scene being the crux of your big "conflict" scene with the Jedi. C'mon. That's weeeeeak.

RTTP: Revenge of the Sith (It's still pretty decent, better than TFA)

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