No it's about buying in-game advantages with real money...full stop.
Now, again, take two exact crews, give one this ship and start the other with nothing. The crew with this ship has a direct advantage. True or false?
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Star Citizen's lead Chris Roberts downplays community's pay to win concerns: "You win by having fun"
- Thread starter Horse Armour
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No it's about buying in-game advantages with real money...full stop.
Now, again, take two exact crews, give one this ship and start the other with nothing. The crew with this ship has a direct advantage. True or false?
Even in a one vs one scenario, is there not a ship that is objectively better than another of equal purpose? Ignoring weapon load outs, is there a single fighter that would be considered outright superior than another fighter? Or are you saying there is absolutely no progression to ships and they are all cosmetic?
There are objectively better ships of every type. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Hell, if you go to any Star Citizen forum or group you'll see plenty of discussions about which ship is best for which purpose and if you ask they'll flat out tell you which is the "best". The only time it turns into this "there is no best ship" or "no advantage" nonsense is when they are circling the wagons against people who are criticizing the game or its developers.
This is clearly pay to win. There's some weird posts in this thread.
Regardless, I hope the game is fun. I'm not a backer, but the high level concept is very interesting and it's something I'd consider buying.
Regardless, I hope the game is fun. I'm not a backer, but the high level concept is very interesting and it's something I'd consider buying.
True but what's the point with that? Are those 10 people going to trow rocks against a ship or something?
There are better ships in every category, but what i'm trying to tell you is that having a ship in some category is not enough in the future. Good luck having a Hammerhead without a crew onboard. If you can't pay for a crew in-game or your just not joined a Org...then your just nothing.
You mean in this topic. You're just try to make this post positive for yourself. Funny because we also see a lot of nonsense against people who have faith in this game or its developers. But let's not forget that this is not the place for positive things.
I think there are two discussions to be had here that keep tripping over one another.
Star Citizen can be both the greatest game of all time, and simultaneously a shameless pay-2-win cash grab for multiplayer.
I mean, it's not like we don't have recent examples:
Star Citizen can be both the greatest game of all time, and simultaneously a shameless pay-2-win cash grab for multiplayer.
I mean, it's not like we don't have recent examples:
I think there are two discussions to be had here that keep tripping over one another.
Star Citizen can be both the greatest game of all time, and simultaneously a shameless pay-2-win cash grab for multiplayer.
I mean, it's not like we don't have recent examples:
I don't even think you want to play online now if you haven't played it before. You will be blown up the moment you step outside your apartment. The world is tiny compared to SC, and SC is not only about fighting.
But yeah, it's GTA...they've already delivered so they won't really care about it.
The point is that any negative you can attribute to the person with the ship can also be attributed to the ones without the ship, which still means in any given circumstance the person with the ship has an advantage. You're playing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting that there is an inherent advantage to hording money and ships before release.
Let's ignore the fact that not every one of these ships require crews, and put it this way. Person A buys an A2 bomber for $750, Person B starts the game with nothing. On launch day the only thing Person A has to worry about is finding/buying a crew. Person B has to earn enough in-game currency to buy the ship in the first place and then they have to find/buy a crew on top of that. You're talking months (or more) of playing a game before you even get to the point where Person B is at the starting point of Person A. And what do you think Person A has been doing this whole time?...becoming more powerful. And this was BEFORE CIG allowed the hording of in-game currency. Now that that's also on the table you can buy your ship, buy your crew, and buy anything and everything you want on day one without having to earn ANY of it.
It's literally the most egregious P2W of any game I've ever seen. It easily surpasses anything Activision or EA have done, and yet you guys sit here and pretend like it's nothing. Like the game all you want. Stan for the developers all you want. But if you are STILL denying what is plain as day for any objective person to see then you are being intentionally disingenuous. It's gotten to the point that I put people who defend the SC monetization right up there with birthers or flat-earthers. In the face of all evidence to the contrary you still deny the truth.
Willful ignorance is claiming that it's not.
Yeah ok, your interpretation of the game supercedes that of the actual intent of the primary designer...
It's going to be a universe full NPC's and actual players with a range of ships from the get go. It's a Privateer MMO.
Tell me, what is the "win" state of Star Citizen?
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Likely the same as the win state of Eve. Power and control. Things that are much easier to come by with deep pockets.
Chris Roberts is in way over his head. He might not intend to make a pay to win game, but he's making a pay to win game.
I am so confused by your argument. Are you saying that you can outclass someone who purchased a better ship by having better equipment? Because yeah, but then they can outclass you by doing the same.
The point is: A 10 man crew that has a mid-level ship is at an inherent disadvantage against a 10 man crew with a high-end ship. Which the entire point of ship-based progression, but in this instance you can outright buy your way to that starting point. They're both kitted out with top-of-the-line equipment and have equally good crews. I genuinely don't understand what your argument is.
The "win" is a moment-to-moment gameplay mechanic. I will 100% be upset if someone cruises by with a $1,000 ship (that they paid for using real life money) and is able to easily take out my $60 ship. That's an unfair advantage in a game where PVP is a natural thing to expect.
It's also likely that you have no clue what you're talking about.
Your disdain for Chris Roberts speaks volumes. Your opinion is irrelevant.
I literally just alt-tabbed over from the PU to type that.
...then you become upset because some asshole killed you with his wallet.
It's like people have never played a PVP-based MMO. If your argument is that there's no game over, then you don't believe in P2W whatsoever.
...the fuck is this?
We literally just described a pay to win scenario. By any definition.
Star Citizen is pay to win. Period. Full stop. Arguing otherwise is straight up lying and spreading misinformation.
As was mentioned above, the game can still end up being great despite being p2w. But it IS goddamn pay to win. For fuck's sake.
User Banned (3 Days): Repeated hostility against other members; junior phase account with previous infractions
Oke don't cry. You behave like a child who does not get his way.
I hope you' Never played GTA5 online then.
The intent of the primary designer means jack if his company is selling these items allowing people to stockpile ships and money before the game is released. What he says or what he thinks means absolutely nothing. His actions are contradictory to his claims.
And I love that you're repeating your cult leaders jargon. What's the "win" state of any P2W game? You want to play semantics, that defense can be applied to every P2W game ever made.
Is Archeage P2W?...of course it is. What is it's "win" state? And can you get everything in that game simply by playing?...yes. The difference is that instead of paying real money and skipping the majority of the grind you will spend a long, long time getting to the point of someone who just swiped their credit card. Star Citizen is the exact same way. You can buy ships, you can buy money, you can buy land, you can buy insurance, you can buy EVERYTHING by swiping your credit card in Star Citizen. If you buy these things you have a distinct, and in many cases drastic, advantage ON DAY ONE over someone who simply buys the game on release.
At this point you guys would be a lot better off just saying you don't care that it's P2W instead of trying to defend this shit.
I mean thats like asking "Whats the win state of life". The "win" state in a game like Star Citizen is going to very from player to player, just like the "win" state in life will very between person to person. In life most "win" states are exponentially easier to achieve (Having a career, raising a family, exploring the world, etc.) when the person in question has resources at their disposal. In a game like Star Citizen, if you start with an unlimited supply of resources achieving your desired "win" state is likely easier then having to accumulate those resources through in game labor.
Holy shit, am I going to be pissed when my one and only Hornet inevitably gets blown away by a bigger and better ship. Im going to blame P2W, always.
Just so we can have a proper discussion, I spent 0$ on Star Citizen, I got it through AMD's program
How mich did you spend on it?
I believe it's an extremely poorly managed project with insanely scummy monetization schemes designed to suck their « contributors » dry while maintaining the dev starus of the game for unreasonable amounts of time.
After 4 years (let's be generous here) there's only veriical technical slices bugged to hell and back with no real alpha game to speak for.
This is a trainwreck
User Banned (3 Days): Repeated hostility against another member; junior phase account with previous infractions
Oh fuck off.
If two people start the game at the same exact time and one person pays $60, and the other pays $1,000, and the $1,000 player begins with an inherent advantage in pvp over the person who spent $60, the game is pay2win. By definition. You have paid money to assist in winning that pvp encounter.
Why do you want to know? So you can shit all over me with the rest?
So we can have proper parameters in this discussion
I'm going to be more critical of someone blindly defending a game they have invested thousands in
I love the schemes it's generated over and over to convince the faithful to spend more money.
Weren't they selling mining real estate just a few months ago? Fucking GENIUS.
So much delusion going on in this thread. I'm ECSTATIC for this game...but anyone with a brain and knowledge of this industry should be able to understand that it's become pay to win. It's been explained thoroughly by now...if you still believe that Star Citizen (in its current state) is not pay to win, then please provide examples of what games you consider being pay to win.
I'm still excited about the game and can't wait to play it in its finished state, but holy shit people.
I'm still excited about the game and can't wait to play it in its finished state, but holy shit people.
I. understand.
I also think it's a non-issue due to the nature of the universe they're going to create. Do you even know how P2P zones are going to be handled?
When the game launches it will be pay to win for those that bought superior ships (in a PvP and most likely a player economy sense). It will remain that way until players catch up with the tiers of ships already out in the world. It won't last forever in a competitive sense but that rich 1% will take a long time to balance out if it ever will.
Ultimately not a huge deal but saying it's completely untrue is nonsense.
Testy, testy!
You're literally parroting Chris Roberts. Was I not supposed to notice that?
I also noticed you couldn't refute the rest of the post.
You can literally buy everything. Land, Ships, Insurance, Money...ALL of it with a credit card. But, nope, not P2W...lol.
THANK YOU!!!
Jesus, just admit it people. That's all. No one cares if you spent money on the game, no one cares if you are looking forward to the game. Be excited, be hyped. Whatever. Just don't piss on our heads and tell us it's raining. The only people you are fooling is yourselves.
You can't even buy insurance with real money. Hell insurance is not even fully active right now ingame. Inform yourself...
Now you trying to be nice. That's all? You called us a cult and now you say "that's" all? You've heard the man (and i'm not going to repeat it).
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You mean referring to the linked article is parroting Chris Roberts?
You accused me of being in a cult. I just like space games. To re-iterate: fuck off.
I've probably spent over 2500$ on WoW over the past 14 years. If you have the money why would I judge? But your defensive tone regarding this game and its shortcomings leads me to believe you have quite a bit invested in and will lead people to be dismissive of your points (for very obvious reasons)
That fact that we even have to debate whether or not Star Citizen is a scam, just goes to show how low the bar is in the gaming community for tolerating anti consumer practices.
I believe they've said they're doing what Eve does? Low sec means you can get blown up without repercussion. While it's always going to be decision to head out there, I don't relish the idea of performing an analysis of how confident I feel compared to how well my weenie 300i will fare against people with more expensive ships at the very beginning of the game. I respectfully disagree that it's a non-issue, it's going to be an issue I think. But time will tell for the PVP-oriented fliers.
It can't be a scam because they are delivering « something »
But it's definitely some of the most scummy consumer monetization scheme out there.
lol what the fuck is this post? someone describes in great detail what the definition of a P2W experience is and your retort is..."you're a child"?
We have some trash posters here. More than I realized.
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So this doesn't exist, huh?
https://medium.com/@baron_52141/star-citizens-new-moves-prioritize-sales-over-backers-2ea94a7fc3e4
And this is fake news?
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...ip-players-a-dollar27000-bundle-of-spaceships
And there were other backer rewards and later packages that you could buy that included Lifetime Insurance. Don't play like because you can't currently buy it separately or that it's not "currently" in the game that it's not a thing. It's a thing, and you have been able to pay real money for it.
Inform yourself...
It's not me trying to be nice, it's about the truth. If you don't want to be compared to a cult, don't act like a cult. I was thanking him because he isn't afraid to admit what the game is and that he's still looking forward to it regardless. If you want to keep pretending otherwise go ahead, but don't play victim.
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Tbh technically not much is in the game
Can't be p2w if you can't fly your jpegs thinkaboutit.jpg
and I'm also waiting on you to type something worth reading. You keep telling posters their opinion is irrelevant and shrugging off their main issue -- P2W -- as a non-issue. Seemingly failing to understand why P2W is inherently problematic and what consequences it has for those who are not paying for these huge advantages. I shutter to think about how long its going to take us to earn the ships that others are just buying, but I think it's safe to assume they're getting a multi-month head start on even the most dedicated of daily players.
You guys are really disappointing. You both can do better. You can acknowledge and accept that P2W is unhealthy and generally a mistake, regardless of the developers' original intent and still hope for the game to come out okay on the other side. I'm pretty sure everyone wants that, but them failing to acknowledge these issues coupled with the desperation to hide or shield people away from recognizing this reality makes you look cultish and the overall project look like there's something to hide.
And to be quite honest, they are much too smart to "accidentally" have built a P2W system around their ships. The more you guys try to avert your eyes from that reality, the more people think you guys have lost your fucking minds. If you like space games so much, go play any of the number of available space games that are *actually* on the market as products that are worth your time. Stop schilling here like this. You look absolutely awful in your posts.
isn't the highest grossing PC game in China a P2W CS clone?
Seems about right
Star citizen = late stage capitalism. Gaming is chalk full of syncopates who defend the rights of companies to exploit their audiences and their workforces. It's not a surprise that gaming is by and large dominated by gross conservative politics. The gamergate culture war shit is just a gateway drug for indoctrinating people into defending the rights of corporations over individuals.
If you just said this from the beginning nobody would have had an issue. Of course none of us knows if the P2W will or how it will affect P2P since the game's not out yet.
But you started by saying this inflammatory thing calling people willfully ignorant for saying it's P2W, even though now you supposedly understand that it is, in fact P2W, just that you don't think it'll matter.
True story....
I guess the sentence "Star Citizen is Pay 2 Win" should always be prefaced with" If it ever fully releases".