Fallout 76: Bethesda confirms to PC Gamer that it will not be on Steam at launch

bbq of doom · Aug 7, 2018

GhostTrick said:
You're the one arguing Valve might abuse their position to raise the cut. And you're asking me how do I know they don't ?
I'm not saying a big distributor never abused their position. I'm telling you Valve isn't.
You're skeptical, but based on what ? Tell me how much do you think each actors charge ?
(pro-tip, it's 30%. Even humble bundle takes 25%, 10 of them being for charity, leaving 75% for devs: https://support.humblebundle.com/hc/en-us/articles/202742080-Humble-Store-FAQ-For-Developers).
Heck, Sony even charges for the data: 16 cents per gigabyte:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/113788/Sony_Charging_Publishers_For_PSN_Download_Volume.php
Dunno if they still do it though.

Couldn't abuse of position be more subtle, like failing to properly update the backend and rolling out features to consumers that have long since existed in other "online" platforms, but years after the fact?

I don't think monopolistic advantage is necessarily just a share of the game price upfront, but a relaxation on pushing the platform as a service forward to the most possible extent. You create margin where you can, not necessarily where it's most visible.

That being said, I don't know enough about Steam personally to truly comment on what inefficiencies or efficiencies exist in the platform due to its implicit monopoly, but from this thread, it sure seems like aspects of their service are decrepit enough to spur questions about its viability as a manager of uber-popular multiplayer games.

I "joined" PC because I wanted to be able to constantly push my gaming experience forward. Is that aligned with Steam? We're gonna find out!

GameZone · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
Those games weren't big sellers, right? It'd be interesting to see if they can/could recoup lost sales expectation via a bigger share of the sale price generally.

They didn't sell well at all, and would probably do a lot worse on Bethesda Launcher. I wouldn't be surprised its 30% less.

Spacecowboy · Aug 7, 2018

JaggedSac said:
All we need now is a launcher launcher. It would manage all the launchers and launch the launcher of the game. Keep the launchers up to date and provide a launcher friends list so you can see which launcher the person is currently using.

There are several, the best I know is:

https://playnite.link/

GhostTrick · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
Couldn't abuse of position be more subtle, like failing to properly update the backend and rolling out features to consumers that have long since existed in other "online" platforms, but years after the fact?

I don't think monopolistic advantage is necessarily just a share of the game price upfront, but a relaxation on pushing the platform as a service forward to the most possible extent. You create margin where you can, not necessarily where it's most visible.

That being said, I don't know enough about Steam personally to truly comment on what inefficiencies or efficiencies exist in the platform due to its implicit monopoly, but from this thread, it sure seems like aspects of their service are decrepit enough to spur questions about its viability as a manager of uber-popular multiplayer games.

I "joined" PC because I wanted to be able to constantly push my gaming experience forward. Is that aligned with Steam? We're gonna find out!

Which ones ? I'd be curious. Since Steam is the one with the more features, I'd be curious to see which abused they did.

As for the comments in this thread, which ones ? The uninformed ones which failed to even produce a point ?

BernardoOne · Aug 7, 2018

Roronoa said:
How do you know? Are you telling me that a big distributor never abuse of his position to maintain its domination?
It's either naive or bad faith.

Because my main point is about how bad monopoly is even if it's Valve. It's a company and like any other company in a dominating position, they will use it at their advantage at the expense of publishers/indies, period.

(I'm skeptical about the 30% cut everywhere since there is no official financial info from all the biggest publishers about it, but it's another discussion)

I don't think publishers have all the same cut even though we hear here and there it's 30% but it's another discussion.

You're absolutely right, let me adjust what I meant, it's removed from the store so no more additional sales and revenues consequently.

Steam has released thousands of games in 2017, there is no more symbiotic relationship when one distributor has a ton of choices for its catalog whereas the publisher has just one place to sell its game.

I agree.

Every store takes the same cut (except for itch.io and some specific cases on Humble Bundle.) , and it applies to every game no matter the publisher. This is publically available info on the stores themselves.

JaggedSac · Aug 7, 2018

Spacecowboy said:
There are several, the best I know is:

https://playnite.link/

They just need to aggregate game availability and price data from all the different storefronts and baby you got a stew goin.

Siresly · Aug 7, 2018

If you want to support competition to Steam because it's healthy and makes for a better market for us as consumers, then this doesn't seem like that at all? This is solely to Bethesda's benefit and to our detriment.

GameZone · Aug 7, 2018

Why the hell is Steam monopoly? They are a store. They want to sell any game from any publisher. When a publisher locks their game behind their store, and that's the only way you get to buy it, that's fucking monopoly.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

GameZone said:
Why the hell is Steam monopoly? They are a store. They want to sell any game from any publisher. When a publisher locks their game behind their store, and that's the only way you get to buy it, that's fucking monopoly.

Because people confuse "monopoly" and "dominant market position".

Edit: From the Wiki on Monopoly

Characteristics

Profit Maximizer: Maximizes profits.

Price Maker: Decides the price of the good or product to be sold, but does so by determining the quantity in order to demand the price desired by the firm.

High Barriers: Other sellers are unable to enter the market of the monopoly.

Single seller: In a monopoly, there is one seller of the good, who produces all the output.[5] Therefore, the whole market is being served by a single company, and for practical purposes, the company is the same as the industry.

Price Discrimination: A monopolist can change the price or quantity of the product. He or she sells higher quantities at a lower price in a very elastic market, and sells lower quantities at a higher price in a less elastic market.

Valve do none of these things with Steam.

Monopsony is an interesting one, though:

In economics, a monopsony (from Ancient Greek μόνος (mónos) "single" + ὀψωνία (opsōnía) "purchase") is a market structure in which only one buyer interacts with many would-be sellers of a particular product.

But, again, Steam is not the only buyer of games from devs/pubs, so wouldn't fit that description.

Deleted member 10549 · Aug 7, 2018

I hate this. I would be happy if they gave us a choice like Ubisoft or CD Projekt Red. Ubisoft sells their games on both Steam and uPlay, so you can pick whatever platform you prefer. Same thing with CDP and their Witcher games. If you want to continue building your library on existing platform, then go ahead, but if you don't care about that then hey, you can get it a bit cheaper on our GOG platform.

I don't really care about Fallout, but if next Elder Scrolls game will never be released on Steam, then I will be pissed.

rstzkpf · Aug 7, 2018

lmao fuck steam

GameZone · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
Because people confuse "monopoly" and "dominant market position".

Well, Valve kinda earned it. If people want competition so badly, Bethesda should release their game on both launchers, and let people choose the best store themself.

That's what Ubisoft does, although you have to go trough Uplay, I still get the Steam benefits. Add these benefits to Uplay, and I might consider buying it directly from Ubisoft. We all know that's not going to happen.

GameZone · Aug 7, 2018

MomoVideo said:
I hate this. I would be happy if they gave us a choice like Ubisoft or CD Projekt Red. Ubisoft sells their games on both Steam and uPlay, so you can pick whatever platform you prefer. Same thing with CDP and their Witcher games. If you want to continue building your library on existing platform, then go ahead, but if you don't care about that then hey, you can get it a bit cheaper on our GOG platform.

I don't really care about Fallout, but if next Elder Scrolls game will never be released on Steam, then I will be pissed.

Because Ubisoft and CDPR aren't stupid enough to miss out on millions of potential gamers.

nofuckinidea · Aug 7, 2018

Time exclusive like ESO and Shelter...thats fine. It will be on Steam at a later date.

bbq of doom · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
Because people confuse "monopoly" and "dominant market position".

Edit: From the Wiki on Monopoly

Valve do none of these things with Steam.

Monopsony is an interesting one, though:

But, again, Steam is not the only buyer of games from devs/pubs, so wouldn't fit that description.

It doesn't need to be a monopoly in either the economic (or, more importantly, legal/antitrust) sense for folks to believe it's the only shop in town and for it to maximize the pressure from that.

Different gradients of different theories would characterize certain behaviors monopolistic.

As someone who's relatively new to PC and as someone who's a part of a group that is relatively new to PC, I was floored when I discovered there was "competition" in this space.

GameZone said:
Well, Valve kinda earned it. If people want competition so badly, Bethesda should release their game on both launchers, and let people choose the best store themself.

That's what Ubisoft does, although you have to go trough Uplay, I still get the Steam benefits. Add these benefits to Uplay, and I might consider buying it directly from Ubisoft. We all know that's not going to happen.

Are they earning it now or did they earn it a while ago? (I'm genuinely curious).

InquisitorAles · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
Are they earning it now or did they earn it a while ago? (I'm genuinely curious).

I'm not sure what are you trying to say. You mean that Valve just took place of market leader because they were first? Because that's not true at all, Steam continues to improve and add new features.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
It doesn't need to be a monopoly in either the economic (or, more importantly, legal/antitrust) sense for folks to believe it's the only shop in town and for it to maximize the pressure from that.

This is true, but it's why I used the phrase "benevolent dominant player" in a post on the previous page. To all outward impressions, Valve try very hard to not act in a "threatening" manner. SteamOS, giving their first round of VR tech away and Vulkan graphics API could all have been leveraged in some way but weren't - which is why it's even weirder when people say "Fuck Steam".

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
As someone who's relatively new to PC and as someone who's a part of a group that is relatively new to PC, I was floored when I discovered there was "competition" in this space.

Hahah! Really? Well, that must've been a nice surprise. :D

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
Are they earning it now or did they earn it a while ago? (I'm genuinely curious).

You'll get different answers to this - they certainly earned it awhile ago. Steam essentially saved PC gaming, and is the reason why Yakuza and Shenmue are coming to PC. And they've done a ton of great things in the past and recent-past - Steam Controller hardware and API for example. But whether they're still earning their place now is more debatable - the client is a bit creaky (though it still does the job), and there's mistakes made, like the rogue Valve employee who started sending letters to VN developers. There's still the question of where games with certain themes belong on Steam (as yet unresolved after-effects of the aforementioned rogue employee). But, yeah, I think they still deserve their place as the best digital distro store through features and catalogue of games.

Fanta · Aug 7, 2018

^ I honestly think a lot of Japanese titles would've remained console exclusive if it weren't for Steam: Yakuza, Shenmue, Valkyria Chronicles, Dark Souls, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy XV etc.

MrBob · Aug 7, 2018

The wording to me makes me think it'll come to steam sometime in the future. Which is fine with me, I can wait on playing this game. Have other people play it first and see if it's actually an RPG and some dumb survival online fps.

bbq of doom · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
This is true, but it's why I used the phrase "benevolent dominant player" in a post on the previous page. To all outward impressions, Valve try very hard to not act in a "threatening" manner. SteamOS, giving their first round of VR tech away and Vulkan graphics API could all have been leveraged in some way but weren't - which is why it's even weirder when people say "Fuck Steam".

As a then outsider, SteamOS (and maybe, more appropriately, SteamBox) struck me as an odd move, but it was something that at least indicated to me that Steam (Valve?) wanted to try and add verticality and a hint of exclusiveness to their market position. "We don't get a cut of the launcher's launcher so we're gonna be the launcher's launcher, and also pair it with some hardware."

Pixieking said:
Hahah! Really? Well, that must've been a nice surprise. :D

"Why would I use anything other than Steam?" is a question I asked.

"We use Discord, who cares" is the tenor of most responses lol.

Pixieking said:
You'll get different answers to this - they certainly earned it awhile ago. Steam essentially saved PC gaming, and is the reason why Yakuza and Shenmue are coming to PC. And they've done a ton of great things in the past and recent-past - Steam Controller hardware and API for example. But whether they're still earning their place now is more debatable - the client is a bit creaky (though it still does the job), and there's mistakes made, like the rogue Valve employee who started sending letters to VN developers. There's still the question of where games with certain themes belong on Steam (as yet unresolved after-effects of the aforementioned rogue employee). But, yeah, I think they still deserve their place as the best digital distro store through features and catalogue of games.

Thank you for this!

InquisitorAles said:
I'm not sure what are you trying to say. You mean that Valve just took place of market leader because they were first? Because that's not true at all, Steam continues to improve and add new features.

That's exactly what I mean; did they earn your choice "yesterday" or if you had to make a brand new choice today, would it be the same?

As someone who has a library but zero social ties to Steam, I don't really care which launcher I use. So for me, I'm not sure Steam gets my vote as dominant player for my $$.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
As a then outsider, SteamOS (and maybe, more appropriately, SteamBox) struck me as an odd move, but it was something that at least indicated to me that Steam (Valve?) wanted to try and add verticality and a hint of exclusiveness to their market position. "We don't get a cut of the launcher's launcher so we're gonna be the launcher's launcher, and also pair it with some hardware."

Interestingly, their motivation was actually mostly the opposite of that - Valve were worried by Microsoft's PC and mobile moves, and talk of UWP bulling-out non-approved applications. The drive into SteamOS (and to a lesser extent Steam Machines) was so that if MS did something incredibly anti-competitive and forced Valve/Steam out of the Windows market (like what happened with Netscape), then an open PC gaming platform would still exist, on a Linux fork.

Edit: Finally found a decent article on it: GDC preview: Windows 10 vs SteamOS Digital Foundry explores two competing visions for the future of PC gaming.

Still a Gray Area · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
No, this is entirely true. But, again, we're into something unknowable, but has value - what percentage of daily users look at the store. 1%? 140,000 people. 10%? 1.4m. 50%? 7m. And like you say, it's not all or nothing - often people won't look for a few days, then they'll spend 10 minutes. This is why there's speculation on the Flash Sales returning - because it's a motivator for people to look at the store every day of the sale.

I'm not arguing the unknowable, you are.

Pixieking said:
Well, I laid out how, for some people, a game not being on Steam would be invisible, so I'll just say that we're back to the old chestnut of "At what point does removing your game from the largest digital distribution store in the world(?) lose you money?"

The most successful games DO NOT use Steam as a distribution platform so there's that.

GameZone · Aug 7, 2018

Still a Gray Area said:
I'm not arguing the unknowable, you are.

The most successful games DO NOT use Steam as a distribution platform so there's that.

These games doesn`t come along that often. Not every game needs Steam, but we can`t expect every game to reach the same amount of popularity as Fortnite.

JesseDeya · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
Bandwidth costs money, just like distribution of of physical products cost money. I think it's harder to argue that MS and Sony deserve 30% considering their relative lack of features and the fact that you have to pay for online as separately, but they - just like Steam - are shops. They employ people, and those people deserve a living wage, which is paid out of the 30%.

Not to mention console manufacturers spend a LOT on R&D, and make very little on the hardware - they recoup through software attachment, so the 'cut' makes sense in this equation.

The benefit to publishers is that they get access to the 10s of millions of console owners, probably somewhere in the order of ~80-100 million gamers all told, so the 'cut' doesn't sting as bad.

Console stores also curate, and games have to go through cert, so no 'Abstractism' shenanigans.

Steam on the other hand, does very little to justify it's 30% cut, other than just 'being Steam'. With how little effort they seem to be putting in these days I'm not sure who all they are paying with all that cream, but I can't say I blame Bethesda for choosing to avoid it. The Steam Store is so full of non-curated crap these days I'll bet FO76 would be lost in the noise in less than a week. Perhaps Bethesda ran the numbers and figured they would lose far less than 15% of sales by not being on Steam?

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

Still a Gray Area said:
I'm not arguing the unknowable, you are.

Yes - I'm saying there is something relevant to this discussion which is unknowable. You're dealing with absolutes, I'm acknowledging that your absolutes are possible, but also may not be absolute because of "unknowable things".

Still a Gray Area said:
The most successful games DO NOT use Steam as a distribution platform so there's that.

Yes, there's successful games that don't use Steam, but unless you're arguing that every game not on Steam is automatically successful because it's not on Steam, that's not really relevant.

Or, to make it simpler - Solium Infernum is not on Steam, famously because the dev got turned-down by Valve years ago and hasn't requested it be on the store since then. Do you think it not being on Steam has lost him money? Do you think it's made him more money because he has 100% of revenue from every sale? Or is this the first time you've heard of the game because it not being on Steam (or any other digital distro store) means it's invisible to most PC users?

bbq of doom · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
Interestingly, their motivation was actually mostly the opposite of that - Valve were worried by Microsoft's PC and mobile moves, and talk of UWP bulling-out non-approved applications. The drive into SteamOS (and to a lesser extent Steam Machines) was so that if MS did something incredibly anti-competitive and forced Valve/Steam out of the Windows market (like what happened with Netscape), then an open PC gaming platform would still exist, on a Linux fork.

Edit: Finally found a decent article on it: GDC preview: Windows 10 vs SteamOS Digital Foundry explores two competing visions for the future of PC gaming.

This is very illuminating, thank you (and thank you for responding seriously!).

Deleted member 41271 · Aug 7, 2018

Good. The more competition to steam, the better.

The service has issues, openly courts really terrible devs (no, I don't mean shovelware devs or asset flip devs, I mean white nationalists, homophobes, the like), has some of the worst community moderation short of reddit, so yep. Any competition is welcome. Quasi-monopolies like steam are bad for the PC ecosystem as a whole, and more competition can only improve matters.

Other services are bloat? Well, I consider steam bloat. I want to start a game, not steam, then a game :P

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

JesseDeya said:
Not to mention console manufacturers spend a LOT on R&D, and make very little on the hardware - they recoup through software attachment, so the 'cut' makes sense in this equation.

The benefit to publishers is that they get access to the 10s of millions of console owners, probably somewhere in the order of ~80-100 million gamers all told, so the 'cut' doesn't sting as bad.

Console stores also curate, and games have to go through cert, so no 'Abstractism' shenanigans.

Steam on the other hand, does very little to justify it's 30% cut, other than just 'being Steam'. With how little effort they seem to be putting in these days I'm not sure who all they are paying with all that cream, but I can't say I blame Bethesda for choosing to avoid it. The Steam Store is so full of non-curated crap these days I'll bet FO76 would be lost in the noise in less than a week. Perhaps Bethesda ran the numbers and figured they would lose far less than 15% of sales by not being on Steam?

https://www.resetera.com/threads/fa...on-steam-at-launch.60388/page-7#post-11193365

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-phantom-trash-games-crowding-digital-marketplaces.35581/

BasilZero · Aug 7, 2018

Is this coming to steam later if not at launch?

If not, very low on my wishlist.

I don't mind having more than one platform launcher but I prefer having as many games in one platform as I can. That and steam cards/achievements/game clock ;p

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
This is very illuminating, thank you (and thank you for responding seriously!).

No probs. :) Oh! I assume you're aware, but just in case you aren't, there's a monthly PC Gaming thread on Era. Come join us (if you haven't already). :)

bbq of doom · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
No probs. :) Oh! I assume you're aware, but just in case you aren't, there's a monthly PC Gaming thread on Era. Come join us (if you haven't already). :)

Already in it! Although I was in the building thread first lol.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
Already in it! Although I was in the building thread first lol.

Hahah! Cool. :D I must admit I don't pay enough attention to the gaming thread... I get side-tracked in threads like this, and US politics. :)

ArmsofSleep · Aug 7, 2018

It's sort of nice having most of my games in one place but fuck Valve and their scummy business practices, the less money going to them the better. If having an overlay and achievements is keeping you from buying the game elsewhere, that's really silly and dumb to me

bbq of doom · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
Hahah! Cool. :D I must admit I don't pay enough attention to the gaming thread... I get side-tracked in threads like this, and US politics. :)

I love threads like this. I don't step foot in ETC though lol.

Back on topic, what happens if F76 is a success away from Steam?

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

BBQ_of_DOOM said:
I love threads like this. I don't step foot in ETC though lol.

Back on topic, what happens if F76 is a success away from Steam?

Next mainline Elder Scrolls and Fallouts will be Bethesda Launcher exclusives (if they aren't already). Doom, Wolfenstein, Prey and Dishonored will probably stick on Steam because they're not strong enough franchises to get people to switch, and they're also probably good impulse purchases at Sale Events. The new space game would probably be on Steam too, since it's a new IP and there's no guarantee what sales will be like.

If they're smart, they'll shoehorn a neutered Bethesda Launcher in to all their Steam games from this point on like Ubisoft do with Uplay - get people used to the look and feel, and get some feedback on it.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

ArmsofSleep said:
It's sort of nice having most of my games in one place but fuck Valve and their scummy business practices, the less money going to them the better. If having an overlay and achievements is keeping you from buying the game elsewhere, that's really silly and dumb to me

I'm just going to spam these two links until people learn to educate themselves about Valve and Steam. Have fun. :)

https://www.resetera.com/threads/fa...on-steam-at-launch.60388/page-7#post-11193365

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-phantom-trash-games-crowding-digital-marketplaces.35581/

random_polymath · Aug 7, 2018

I am happy about this. The more good games that Steam is missing the better.

Steam's vision for delivery is the wrong path. I only support stores that curate their wares.

Games which have a persistent online presence are the wrong choice for Steam anyway. Better to build the infrastructure on your own platform to keep people within your kingdom and not playing other games.

ArmsofSleep · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
I'm just going to spam these two links until people learn to educate themselves about Valve and Steam. Have fun. :)

https://www.resetera.com/threads/fa...on-steam-at-launch.60388/page-7#post-11193365

https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-phantom-trash-games-crowding-digital-marketplaces.35581/

........... you didn't even ask why I didn't want to support Valve, and assumed it was some convoluted reason surrounding their storefront having shovelware? lmao

Oddhouse · Aug 7, 2018

JaggedSac said:
All we need now is a launcher launcher. It would manage all the launchers and launch the launcher of the game. Keep the launchers up to date and provide a launcher friends list so you can see which launcher the person is currently using.

haha this is a brilliant idea.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

ArmsofSleep said:
........... you didn't even ask why I didn't want to support Valve, and assumed it was some convoluted reason surrounding their storefront having shovelware? lmao

I mean, the first link was a post in this very thread stating things that Valve has done for PC gaming, and you said

fuck Valve and their scummy business practices, the less money going to them the better

Which makes me think you don't really know much about them? But I do apologise if I came across rudely, or that my impression was wrong, I just don't see why people continue to say "Fuck Valve" with no further elaboration on the 14th page of a thread. *shrugs* No offence meant.

Revolver Oshawott · Aug 7, 2018

LordAmused said:
Paid mods incoming.
It's the main reason Bethesda is not putting it on Steam.

My feel is not only paid mods, but Bethesda taking over mod distribution in general.
AFAIK FO76 is not moddable, but I bet the only way to download mods, paid or free, in TES6 and beyond will be through Beth.net.

VincentMatts · Aug 7, 2018

How do you PC gamers feel about this? It doesnt seem like its a trend thats going away anytime soon. It just gonna get worse. Anyone thinking of switching to consoles instead because of this?

ArmsofSleep · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
I mean, the first link was a post in this very thread stating things that Valve has done for PC gaming, and you said

Which makes me think you don't really know much about them? But I do apologise if I came across rudely, or that my impression was wrong, I just don't see why people continue to say "Fuck Valve" with no further elaboration on the 14th page of a thread. *shrugs*

I've been playing PC games for 20 years haha, I remember a world before Valve and a world with Valve. I've played (and loved) a lot of Valve games and I remember when Steam was basically just bloatware you had to deal with to play 1.6 or HL2. And I work in the game industry and have worked with Valve/Steam on a bunch of projects.

I have issues with their positions on censorship/free speech, their corporate structure, and in general the technical precedence that Steam has created. For all the talk about whether this 76 thing is anti-consumer or not, it's pretty inarguable that the transition of physical software and ownership into software licenses and losing your entire game library if Steam decides is so has been anti-consumer. No amount of "yeah but they SAVED PC gaming! They're the reason a lot of games are even coming to PC at all!" will change that. You can't envision a reality without Steam as the front and center of PC gaming, whereas I remember that reality and imagine it being even better and more alive without Steam.

Seriously man, it's alright for you to be a Valve fanboy (which you obviously are), that's well within your rights. I'm a fanboy for all sorts of dumbshit. But accusing people who don't like Valve of being secret console gamers is really weird.

Also man the steam controller really sucked shit lmao

Deleted member 10549 · Aug 7, 2018

random_polymath said:
I am happy about this. The more good games that Steam is missing the better.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

ArmsofSleep said:
I've been playing PC games for 20 years haha,

Cool. I've been playing PC games for 20 years, console games for 30, and played my first game on a Spectrum in '84.

ArmsofSleep said:
I remember a world before Valve and a world with Valve. I've played (and loved) a lot of Valve games and I remember when Steam was basically just bloatware you had to deal with to play 1.6 or HL2. And I work in the game industry and have worked with Valve/Steam on a bunch of projects.

I have issues with their positions on censorship/free speech, their corporate structure, and in general the technical precedence that Steam has created.

Fair fair.

ArmsofSleep said:
For all the talk about whether this 76 thing is anti-consumer or not, it's pretty inarguable that the transition of physical software and ownership into software licenses and losing your entire game library if Steam decides is so has been anti-consumer.

Yes? But also, what would the alternatives have been? SecuROM literally does not work on Windows 10 - the OS thinks it's malware. Discs? With disc rot an issue? One of the reasons for emulation is to protect games which are "crumbling".

ArmsofSleep said:
No amount of "yeah but they SAVED PC gaming! They're the reason a lot of games are even coming to PC at all!" will change that. You can't envision a reality without Steam as the front and center of PC gaming, whereas I remember that reality and imagine it being even better and more alive without Steam.

I would say that you're ignoring the massive piracy problem of the olden times and the outlook of many companies who made the move from PC to console (if they were even ever on PC), The recent thread on Capcom Japan being against PC digital distro, for example. I think game "licenses" were bound to happen, as keygens and pieces of paper with codewords to write in to prove you owned the game were easily crackable, and that it was just a matter of time until they happened. That Valve got there first says something, considered MS had the system in place with Windows key activations.

Edit: Also, less with the condescension please. "You can't envision a reality without Steam"? Nah mate, I had an Amiga, I don't need to envision it, I had it.

ArmsofSleep said:
Seriously man, it's alright for you to be a Valve fanboy (which you obviously are), that's well within your rights. I'm a fanboy for all sorts of dumbshit.

I feel this is a bit dumb. We don't need to drop to calling other posters "fanboy" - it's immature. And in the console threads would probably get you a warning.

ArmsofSleep said:
But accusing people who don't like Valve of being secret console gamers is really weird.

When people turn-up, post "Fuck Steam" and then you look at their post history and they've never posted in a PC thread, then it's not weird. It's just logic.

ArmsofSleep said:
Also man the steam controller really sucked shit lmao

No? I mean, I love using it - I've got long fingers, and it's perfectly shaped for my hands, and my wife loves it too. We both hate the DS4, since it feels "cramped". So this would just be you being slightly immature and forcing your opinion on me? Or what?

CountAntonio · Aug 7, 2018

VincentMatts said:
How do you PC gamers feel about this? It doesnt seem like its a trend thats going away anytime soon. It just gonna get worse. Anyone thinking of switching to consoles instead because of this?

Lol no. I have like 8 launchers on my PC and at most it's an inconvenience. But it's nowhere near bad enough for me to want to go back to console.

Derrick01 · Aug 7, 2018

GameZone said:
Why the hell is Steam monopoly? They are a store. They want to sell any game from any publisher. When a publisher locks their game behind their store, and that's the only way you get to buy it, that's fucking monopoly.

Yeah they've never been a monopoly. Saying that would be to ignore all the other clients that already exist. They've been as powerful as they have been because they're by far the best option out there that offers people the most. These other clients, the so called "competition", haven't offered anything innovative over the years. They only exist to make publishers a little extra money on their quarterly reports.

The weird thing is how they've managed to convince so many people that this is good and steam is the bad guy for taking an industry-standard cut, and that steam is the one who has sat back doing nothing for years. It's such a ridiculous claim to make that goes against reality that if you told me Trump was the one who said that I'd believe it.

VincentMatts said:
How do you PC gamers feel about this? It doesnt seem like its a trend thats going away anytime soon. It just gonna get worse. Anyone thinking of switching to consoles instead because of this?

I take these things pretty seriously and I don't like to play ball with the publishers when they try this shit. I've played approximately 1 Origin game and it was ME3, the program is not even installed anymore. I have 1 uplay game that didn't come from steam and it's the crew 2 which came with my GPU (I tried to sell the code but nvidia makes that really hard to do now, so I ended up redeeming it). I don't have battlenet or anything else installed currently.

If bethesda is stupid enough to do this with all of their games then if they put something out I want to play I'll just play it on ps4 pro or X. I may even rent rage 2 instead of buying it, even though I sympathize with their single player plight. I just really detest being screwed like this, more than anything that might make me feel bad for them.

Pixieking · Aug 7, 2018

VincentMatts said:
How do you PC gamers feel about this? It doesnt seem like its a trend thats going away anytime soon. It just gonna get worse. Anyone thinking of switching to consoles instead because of this?

I've got a PS4 to play, too, for Bloodborne, God of War and Spider-Man. Console exclusives and that's about it.

ShinUltramanJ · Aug 7, 2018

VincentMatts said:
How do you PC gamers feel about this? It doesnt seem like its a trend thats going away anytime soon. It just gonna get worse. Anyone thinking of switching to consoles instead because of this?

I mean, I don't want my mom dressing me just because I've got a lot of outfits hanging in my closet.

ArmsofSleep · Aug 7, 2018

Pixieking said:
Yes? But also, what would the alternatives have been? SecuROM literally does not work on Windows 10 - the OS thinks it's malware. Discs? With disc rot an issue? One of the reasons for emulation is to protect games which are "crumbling".

I would say that you're ignoring the massive piracy problem of the olden times and the outlook of many companies who made the move from PC to console (if they were even ever on PC), The recent thread on Capcom Japan being against PC digital distro, for example. I think game "licenses" were bound to happen, as keygens and pieces of paper with codewords to write in to prove you owned the game were easily crackable, and that it was just a matter of time until they happened. That Valve got there first says something, considered MS had the system in place with Windows key activations.

No? I mean, I love using it - I've got long fingers, and it's perfectly shaped for my hands, and my wife loves it too. We both hate the DS4, since it feels "cramped". So this would just be you being slightly immature and forcing your opinion on me? Or what?

Going to avoid getting into a quote-off (because those are never fun)

But the alternative is freeware. That's the alternative. I mean, saying "Steam is how PC gaming was going to look like in 2018 whether Valve was behind it or not" is undeniably true. I'm not really gonna fight you there. But just because it's inevitable doesn't mean I have to like it! It's a big big picture thing, because to me, the alternative is a world without capitalism where this is freeware, that's what I think is *good*. An industry where Valve holds an extremely dominant position in the market because they got their first, to me, is just not good, and won't ever be good. And that's not to say that you're wrong about how you feel about Valve, it's just how I feel.

As to the "fanboy" thing.............. I mean, I love the moderation and how well curated Resetera can be, but don't be such a narc. It's a gaming forum, you gotta banter. I think we'd be better off acknowledging how biased we all are rather than pretend we're coming from some supreme position of logic.

Also holy hell if you think the DS4 is cramped and the steam controller is perfectly shaped I would love to give you a high five sometime:

Fallout 76: Bethesda confirms to PC Gamer that it will not be on Steam at launch

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