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On a day like today, 1945, Little Boy was dropped in Hiroshima
- Thread starter Serpens007
- Start date
The war clearly wasn't over. The leadership refused to surrender. The only reason they did is because the emperor stepped in and forced it.
Your responses don't make any sense.
They were also influential factions against surrender until every city had been leveled.
These arguments aren't arguments for absolute nessecity or even nessecary saving US forces from a ground invasion
More civilians would perish due to starvation if the war continued much longer. Never mind the Russians tearing through Manchuria.
A US invasion was extremely unlikely to happen. We had their communications so we knew a prolonged, costly invasion leading to public weariness was the Japanese strategy at that point. That's why holding out in the face of the bombings was what they wanted to do.
Check out some helpful books, as exemplified by Kazuo Tamayama's 'Tales by Japanese Soldiers', as well as everything you can find on Okamura. As terrifying as the firebombings were, the introduction of nuclear arms meant the potential to kill millions in moments if directed at larger targets. Nagasaki and Hiroshima were relatively less dense and without targeting the Emperor or IJA command staff.
Until those last days, Okamura was still confident in retaining Japanese supremacy over China, which as seen by Unit 731, was absolutely untenable. If you don't know what I'm talking about, go and immediately examine the record of that. Bone chilling stuff.
And the Emperor risked much in demanding the surrender, the Army leadership and true political powers were mostly bent on resistance even if it meant putting unarmed civilians into death's path. The story of getting the recording of his voice to the radio station is absolutely astonishing.
Oppenheimer consigned this planet to Oblivion.
May he never be spared from the pain of Satan's erect tusk.
May he never be spared from the pain of Satan's erect tusk.
The Soviets would have never allowed the continuation of the monarchy in whatever part of Japan they dominated .
More pertintely my main point is that the threat of Soviet invasion was plan A until the Truman administration saw a prime opportunity to whip out the nuclear peen.
Calling that a regrettable but absolute nessecity isn't really a position I feel morally comfortable rocking with but that's just me.
Here are some things that would have likely occurred if the Allies had to forcibly invade Japan.
1. Millions of Japanese are killed, the nation likely ceases to exist.
2. Hundreds of thousands of allied soldiers, primarily western, are killed.
3. The militaries of the west are depleted, leaving western Europe vulnerable to the Soviets.
4. Korea falls completely to the DPRK.
5. The war drags out for another 4-6 years, conservatively.
I think we should also consider (in a morbid sort of way I guess) how many lives nuclear bombs, or more aptly the threat of said bombs have saved over the years. In all of recorded history has there ever been a longer period of general peace and prosperity? I get there's still an inordinate amount of problems across the world, but we've still come a long way.
This makes me so sad. I was in an exhibition that had written statements from survivors and I had to leave as I was tearing up and couldn't read...
Sometimes I think about the next time one such bomb (missile now) will be used. How everything would change, wherever it's used will not matter. Hopefully it won't happen... we gotta believe.
Sometimes I think about the next time one such bomb (missile now) will be used. How everything would change, wherever it's used will not matter. Hopefully it won't happen... we gotta believe.
Incredible article. Thanks for sharing it. Some of those stories are... damn man.
Just from the clips that I mentioned I saw, it's realistically brutal :/
I watched the movies when I was a teen; the scene of the bombing is terrified me when I watched it. Even more terrible is that the movie is based on the author experience as a bombing survivor.
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I think it is more probably due to economics and capitalism. It just isn't a good idea to be in war with a nation where you get more by trading than invading. Which makes Trade wars between the US and China and the whole stupidity of Trump worse.
Deterrence is the only way Nukes "saves" us. That turns the impossibility of total Nuclear Dissarmament a fact, so it only takes a group of maniacs to destroy the illusion of peace
Besides the complete lack of warranting for some of those claims (4-6 years?) the causality is a little wonky in others.
Do we really think the DPRK would be the DPRK of today without the initial reimposition of the collborationst government through American support and arms?
On a similar note given that internal Soviet cables give us a clear idea of Soviet intentions in the area, it seems to me a bit of a stretch to say that allowing them to pressure to the Japanese from the north would have even needed American support to change the calculus of military elites. This also makes me highly skeptical about your claim that prolonging the war in the east even by six weeks would open up Europe to Soviet invasion.
Furthermore given the Japanese internal cables we have making clear the emporer's intention to use the threat of a struggle to the death to push for the Soviet Union to act as as a third party to conduct negotiations through, obviously counting on then cooling Anglo-American/Soviet relations to give the Soviets reason to push against American influence (and therefore contribute to Soviet encirclement) post war.
Given that his intercession (a day later) was ultimately nessecary to break the political deadlock among military elites and get Japan to accept a potentially unconditional American surrender I'm lost at what point in the story where the dropping of the nukes an absolute nessecity.
Instead given their timing in advance of August 9th its pretty clear to me what the Truman administrations full set of aims were for the detonations. Given how close that cold warrior attitude came to wiping out life on earth as we know it you'll have to forgive me for not rocking with atomic apologists.
Based upon known events and numbers now, along with Japanese behavior on Okinawa it would have taken years to fully pacify the Home Islands.
Japan had over 12,000 kamikaze craft (planes and boats) prepared to strike, over double what US intelligence believed.
Any invasion of Japan would have assuredly relied upon the use of nuclear weapons as tactical weapons anyway, radiation sinkness would have killed thousands of Japanese and Americans alike.
Culturally important cities like Kyoto that were spared attacked would be leveled, either by nuclear weapons or firebombs.
Let's not forget that with the Japanese public fighting the Americans there would be no one to harvest in the Fall of 1945 or plant the next season of crops.
A typhoon in October 1945 would have delayed the invasion and given the Japanese a morale boost (Divine Wind typhoons that destroyed the Mongol fleets in the 13th century) and extended the fighting.
By the end of September the Japanese would have launched biological warfare attacks on the west coast of the United States with Operation Cherry Blossoms at Night. Based on results in China this would have likely ended up killing tens of thousands of people.
Do you really think that Japan and Korea would be better off today if the invasion went ahead and the bombs didn't force a surrender when they did? What about where nuclear weapons are improved and made more terrible and end up used in conflict later to even worse horror?
The atomic bombings were terrible, the entire war was terrible, it's a cold calculus but they saved lives. They saved Japan. There is no plausible end to the war that would've have been better than what actually happened
Korean Independence Day is coming up.
My grandmother was sad that I became a US citizen, because it meant that I didn't use my Korean passport to come to visit her anymore.
"You don't know how much it means to say that you have your own country."
My grandmother was sad that I became a US citizen, because it meant that I didn't use my Korean passport to come to visit her anymore.
"You don't know how much it means to say that you have your own country."
Why didn't you keep your Korean passport? I thought Korea allow dual citizenship
You can keep saying I make no sense, and that's ok. I enjoy the debate, honestly.
I believe it was wrong and that is a point of contention. Which is great! It should be debated.
You however took the high road and accused me of "hand waving" and what I stated is wrong (not my opinion, the facts I stated) and failed to conventionally address them.
That is not a debate.That's cherry picking your stance whilst avoiding stated arguments.
(no offense meant)
Had the opportunity to visit the Hiroshima memorial when I was in Japan a couple of years ago. It is absolutely a necessity for anyone who wants to get an idea of the sheer scale of the destruction. They do not hold back in that memorial and they shouldn't. I highly recommend it, no matter how sad and horrific it is.
One of the worst acts that one human has done to another. A monstrous thing. A war crime. Targeting civilians at the end of the war, killing tens of thousands of innocents in a single moment- if another nation did this to us I doubt America would ever forgive it.
The Japanese military didn't want to engage in proper war termination negotiations to the point that they started conducting kamikaze attacks. They had no civillian oversight and no one could reign them in until the two bombs happened and the Japanese emperor was forced to reign in the military.
The Pacific war is still studied today in many war colleges for how atypical it was.
Edit: in more detail. Japan political goal was to push Western counties out of the Pacific. There operational plan was attack hard and fast to quickly get Western nation's to conduct war termination negotiations. Instead Japan lost the battle of Coral Sea, Battle of Midway, and were push back in the Pacific. They lost but instead of understanding
that they would not achieve their political goal and surrender. They dug their heels in and tossed away everything they learned about the conduct of war.
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Yup. Nothing good was going to happen to me in the ROKA. My Korean at the time was very poor, I was raised in the US virtually all my life, I was 6' tall. People were saying I wouldn't have to worry because I wouldn't get conscripted because of my poor Korean, or that I was the only grandson on my paternal side. But instead of tempting fate, I naturalized when I was 19.
Flash forward to that summer in Korea. I am stopped at the airport at immigration, and brought into a room with other young men my age. All of us in the room were registered with the Korean government. Only a handful of us had lived in the US for 10 consecutive years. And amongst that, only 3 of us had US passports/citizenship.
The three of us were let go. Everyone else was put on a truck and sent to induction.
Maybe blame the state actors who did this over scientists.
Meanwhile we've had the debate here and GAF on the morality of the bombs countless times. It's ultimately pointless because one side argues that they are irrefutably right based mostly on the popular received narrative and maybe some pophistory they read.
I'm not arguing against an attack but rather the barbaric method.
America did nothing when China was invaded and when Hitler saw the policy of appeasement working he just took more of Europe unchallenged.
My point (and I'm sure I probably articulated this badly) is that an evil unchallenged cannot be stopped or won by killing civilians. Look at Syria.
What end to the war would have led to less civilian casualties?
Earlier intervention instead of sitting on hands. That's fact.
How is that better than saying that Japan just shouldn't have attacked anyone? Or that Hitler shouldn't have? Your assignment of responsibility here is very strange.
You're talking shite, I never said either statements. Quote me if I did.
Huh? I'm asking how your statement is any different than those.
In addition to agreeing that we should never forget it, I would like to pop in to mention that I strongly feel the United States or some other populated western country / city is the most at risk it has ever been to being attacked by rogue nuclear devices. This is particularly true in the era of Trumpism, where the facade of strength terribly masques a completely bumbling weakness in the background. It would be easy for Russia or China to smuggle a bomb and then detonate it under the guise of the dreaded middle eastern terrorist, either during this administration or at the beginning of the next so as to sow further chaos toward paths other than dictatorship for the U.S.
Let us hope my fears are misguided and unrealistic.
Let us hope my fears are misguided and unrealistic.
I get you but when studying War you have to understand the nations invovled. Japan viewed their Emperor as God and their highly respected their Military. The Japanese civillian population would have never pushed for surrender and negotiations. Even the Emperor was unwilling to push back against the military until the bombs happened and even after that the Japanese military still felt resentment against the emperor for stopping them.
By 1944-1945 the war was meaningless and the allied forces were desperate to end it at any cost.
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory Whataboutism
Unit 731 rape of nanking bataan death march. 3 to 14 million people died because of the japanese. Kill all burn all and loot all thats what the japanese wanted to do asia. Why should we feel sorry for the nukes. Did they feel sorry for the died babies who they used for knife practice.
I really like this post as it puts perspective rather than nonsense.
I get why it happened, I just think it was a sad day for humanity. I'm fully aware about the Chinese situation that precluded the entire sad affair.
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I don't know, did the innocent civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki partake in the rape of nanking, bataan death march and the activities of unit 731? That's a hell of a way to generalize.
My country suffered from years of israeli occupation and countless massacres bu the IAF, I still don't call for mass genocide of israeli civilians.
Everything the japanese did during ww2 was far worse than the us using the nukes on two citites. The nukes needed to be used to end the war.
By 1945 Japan lost all offensive capabilities, was running very low on all resources from steel to oil, it's war factories turned to ruins by strategic fire bombings which killed just as much civilians as one of the nuke drops (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945)).
The Allies could've just blocked off Japan and forced a surrender with attrition, I do not think the nukes were necessary, even strategic bombings themselves, from Dresden to Tokyo were more powerful.
Thank you, it was fucked up killing civilians. I agree the war was over.
The UK was close to dead, Paris/Poland was taken, the game was over strategically.
Then you had the "Battle of Britain", winning that fight was like winning the lotto.
It was total war, even the US did some fucked up shit like firebombing civillian centers. Americans are lucky in the fact no population center was really attacked (unless I'm wrong on this, feel free to correct me). The US used flamethrowers for instance which is absolutely abhorrent. The Japanese did a ton of horrible things, but there's horrible things on both the Axis and the Allies. Don't forget a lot of the more sadistic shit the Allies did was covered up after the war for propaganda purposes. The English (my country) for instance were planning on mass poisoning all the crops in Germany.
You also forget that Churchill was the one who started the Blitz, not Hitler. It was said for decades that the Germans were the ones who started bombing civillians, but it was under Churchill's orders that we first killed civillians iin Germany which led to retaliatory attacks from the Germans on big cities here.
The most sadistic shit the allies did was ignore the concentration camps. They knew they were there.
That's something I thought of too. If they didn't have the atomic bombings and Japan had to be invaded, the country probably would have been split and all of Korea would be under the Kim regime.