The Evo 2018 "Coin Flip" - Ruthless Strategy or Dirtbag Move?

Remember, the side choosing part happened in between sets, those sets, the GF and the reset are separate sets it doesn't count as in between game, so they were choosing what side to play THAT set. So the RPS/Coin flip part was absolute fair, it was the TO's who took long enough time to do the translating part and stuff.

Also GO1 threw the momentum away when he choked on game 1.

Bragg said:

On the other hand this is a grown man wearing a cheap mascot costume. He's cringe incarnate and I'm not surprised any antic of his is scrutinized a bit.

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Womp womp.

i cant believe people are mad about this lol

to add and idk if this was already brought up but he could have requested a blind pick if he really wanted to "ice" Goichi as well. In that case both players would have had to tell a judge all three of their character picks in confidence and then the judge would choose what they told them for them. Probably would have taken the same time too with the language barrier and what not

Agent 47 said:

Ah yes that explains everything, I often see people sharing their fetishes after winning at sporting events.

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Idk if you're joking, but a fursona isn't just a sexual fetish.

Bragg said:

I explained why I brought it up in my post. I don't see why it's a big deal but I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason why people don't like it is a result of his histrionics.

Also i don't know what's hypocritical here.

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You don't see how's hypocritical that his request to change sides is put in a negative light just because he decides to participate in the tournament using a silly costume?

Even tho he was working well within the rules?

You're just shitting on him for his association with a fandom, would you be okay for everyone to scrutinize your actions because you associate with the star wars fandom? like "oh yeah, Bragg cannot be trusted, he's part of a fandom that harbors a gigantic pool of misogynist man babies who do things like recut movies to erase all women, obviously Bragg is cringe incarnate!"

You see how ridiculous it is?

Relaxed Muscle said:

But is not something is done on every match? Why a player can request it instead of doing automatically at every match? If player sides matter that much, why don't make it so for every match?



Exactly that was my point, in football both teams gets each side automatically the coin flip only decides the intial setup, why not make it to force changes so is equal like in football or any other sport?

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The sides don't matter that much(though some things are slightly easier to pull off on Pad from P1 side). The thing is, it was literally to take a breather to slow down Go1's momentum and regain composure. Anyone thinking a player good enough to make Evo GF in a pool of 2500+ players without a loss can't function from the other side is insane. Did we magically see him drop all his combos during ANY match when his character was on the right side of the screen? Nope.

I'm sure someone will because the internet is fickle as hell, but I'm really anxious for someone to count legit drops that he had during matches while on each side and see if there's some big difference. Not to mention the fact that the side positioning only matters for like the first 6 seconds of an air dash fighter anyway.

GearDraxon said:

"hey guys, i don't follow baseball but this stocky gentleman is named "babe" like whaaaaat that's not even a real name?"

"i'm clearly not capable of engaging with the conversation at hand, so i thought i'd make the thread about me and my thoughts on some superficial nonsense"

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That sums up the vast majority of takes when it comes to any competitive or high level gaming on a general board like Era.

I mean, it was a legit, if heel tactic, and it may have helped dramatically. That said, the finale of the world tour is going to be unbelievable I suspect, especially if it's Sonic / Go1 again, and Go1 has the anger from Evo driving him to grind even harder.

As for Sonic - he came to NWM and is a super nice / gregarious guy (kid functionally to my old ass). I don't know him well, but he gave nothing but love and respect to folks (along with kind of over the top sarcasm because we all do that).

EDIT: Also, you often see where the icing backfires because the player who needs the break gets into their head too hard, and the player who just ran through them gets time to collect themselves and try to counter-adjust ahead of time. It's like icing the kicker, sometimes it works, sometimes it hilariously backfires.

Came here for the salt, stayed for the goony-ass people freaking out about a furry in the year of our lord 2018

Kenzodielocke said:

This guy is alright in my book.

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Okay, I love this dude.

There is literally no way it can be a dirtbag move, it's in the rules and it was a simple chair switch.

Seriously they're pros, acting like something as simple as switching sides was all that Sonicfox needed to beat Go1 is an insult to both of em.

PSqueak said:

You don't see how's hypocritical that his request to change sides is put in a negative light just because he decides to participate in the tournament using a silly costume?

Even tho he was working well within the rules?

You're just shitting on him for his association with a fandom, would you be okay for everyone to scrutinize your actions because you associate with the star wars fandom? like "oh yeah, Bragg cannot be trusted, he's part of a fandom that harbors a gigantic pool of misogynist man babies who do things like recut movies to erase all women, obviously Bragg is cringe incarnate!"

You see how ridiculous it is?

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I'm still not sure I see it as hypocritical. Fandom has nothing to do with it. If someone wore a Stormtrooper costume in a fighting game tournament I'd think that's pretty cringey too.

But you're right, it's all harmless and me calling it out isn't of any value and if it's worth anything I removed the comment.

ninjabot said:

It was a legit move, but it's distasteful and deserves an asterisk.

Like winning a presidency thanks to electoral votes rather than having more people vote for you than they do your opponent. The point of the voting system is so that the people decide who they want, and if more people want that president, then that president is elected. But in this scenario the larger number of people didn't get who they wanted. Instead they got who a lesser demographic wanted and the person set up to win lost.

Yes they do it in many other sports, where it's just as annoying. When I watch a competition I want the determining factor of who's the better athlete/fighter to come down to whether or not they're the better athlete/fighter. Not because you can grant yourself an advantage by exploiting rules outside of the actual field/ring.

I mean for me personally, it feels like this:

SonicFox: Man... I think I'm gonna lose this. You wanna let me on the other side so I can slow down your momentum and have an advantage when it comes to pulling off my combos?

Goichi: This is against my best interest... but okay. Nothing bad ever came from being a Nice Guy(tm).

SonicFox: YAY! I won thanks to a handicap as well as exploiting your kindness! I'm the best in the world!

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This post has some "Sony must repent and apologize" vibes to me. You are way too deep my friend.

KCsoLucky said:

The sides don't matter that much(though some things are slightly easier to pull off on Pad from P1 side). The thing is, it was literally to take a breather to slow down Go1's momentum and regain composure. Anyone thinking a player good enough to make Evo GF in a pool of 2500+ players without a loss can't function from the other side is insane. Did we magically see him drop all his combos during ANY match when his character was on the right side of the screen? Nope.

I'm sure someone will because the internet is fickle as hell, but I'm really anxious for someone to count legit drops that he had during matches while on each side and see if there's some big difference. Not to mention the fact that the side positioning only matters for like the first 6 seconds of an air dash fighter anyway.



That sums up the vast majority of takes when it comes to any competitive or high level gaming on a general board like Era.

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I know this is a tough thread to follow, but Fox specifically said he likes P1 because it's easier to do his opening move. Has nothing to do with being able to hold a combo

The way a couple of you are framing this, you'd think SonicFox never left the P1 side during that second set. He was back on the P2 side almost as soon as the match started.

Hobbesian Thudercat said:

I swear some people have never done anything competitive in their lives.

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real fucking deal

DNAbro said:

His words



if it was in his right to do it, he should be able to.

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straight from the fox's mouth

there's honestly not a lot more to say. play to win, especially at a tournament and especially when there's 15k on the line

I think its legit and fine...just like others said its a tactical ability..just like calling a timeout in Basketball or Football.

I think if anything Goichi fucked up. He summoned the dragon TWICE and used BOTH those wishes to get Cell back to full health. Now, I'm not a tourney player so I don't know the strategy behind that move but in MY head I'm thinking more in terms of you are against THE most dominant player in the game you are both playing, and he has ALL THREE of his characters still alive....and you feel like you will be able to take ALL THREE out with your ONE? AND he didn't have Sparking available to him both times at the time of summoning?? Why not bring someone back to life so you'll have an assist to help you with mixups or advancing in? Or ask for Sparking so you could actually have a chance to wipe the team, especially with a character like Cell?

To me that almost seems like he was either over-confident or downplaying SonicFox's ability cause that is the riskiest of gambles to take against such a player given the situation.

The time spent trying to figure out about the side switching wasn't even SonicFox's fault on top of that, the TOs took forever to decide what they were gonna do, going from rock paper scissors to a damn coin flip. They could and SHOULD have just as easily figured that shit out immediately if they seen that the agreement was divided between SonicFox and Goichi.

In the end Goichi kinda fucked himself with those Shenron wishes...and lowkey the TOs taking too long to decide also damaged his momentum as well.

"D." said:

I think if anything Goichi fucked up. He summoned the dragon TWICE and used BOTH those wishes to get Cell back to full health. Now, I'm not a tourney player so I don't know the strategy behind that move but in MY head I'm thinking more in terms of you are against THE most dominant player in the game you are both playing, and he has ALL THREE of his characters still alive....and you feel like you will be able to take ALL THREE out with your ONE? AND he didn't have Sparking available to him both times at the time of summoning?? To me that almost seems like he was either over-confident or downplaying SonicFox's ability cause that is the riskiest of gambles to take against such a player given the situation.

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Reviving a teammate only brings them back to around 25% health iirc. His choices were basically potentially lose current character for another shot with shitty health, or get a second chance at full health with my current character.

Looking back he made the right call(s).

Legit tactic, if I was Go I would have not even wasted time with the coin toss. Give him P1 and jump right back into it.

Professor Beef said:

Reviving a teammate only brings them back to around 25% health iirc. His choices were basically potentially lose current character for another shot with shitty health, or get a second chance at full health with my current character.

Looking back he made the right call(s).

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Ahh okay I didn't know this. I thought they get full health. My bad. But why not at least Sparking?

"D." said:

Ahh okay I didn't know this. I thought they get full health. My bad. But why not at least Sparking?

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I have to assume he was thinking about how to stay alive in the moment. Sparking would be nice, but he still would've been one touch away from death. Full health would at least give him the chance to survive a few hits.

It was a momentum-killing technicality, but it's the same kind of bullshit you see in regular sports. It can be frustrating, but it's part of the game, and it's the kind of drama that can really add to the "story" of an event like this. Like, imagine a potential rematch someday, and if Goichi's in a position where he can do something similar. It'd be awesome.

Either way, it was cool to see SonicFox win, even if that moment was a bit deflating.

Professor Beef said:

Reviving a teammate only brings them back to around 25% health iirc. His choices were basically potentially lose current character for another shot with shitty health, or get a second chance at full health with my current character.

Looking back he made the right call(s).

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The first time he had a Shenron summon I can understand the health. The second time I think he had enough health that he could have survived with sparking active.

It was legal and all. Strategy, icing? Cool. But is Sonicfox really satisfied with his win knowing he couldn't beat GO1 at maximum concentration?

Cuz fox was getting rolled by zone-mode Goichi.

Fox usually loses long exhibition matches vs GO1, you know, long sets where momentum matters the most.

I feel like a lot of people are especially defending and rationalizing this away because Fox is a furry, gay POC.

Edit - also this almost never happens mid set, if ever at all. If p1 side was that important to Sfox he would have flipped GO1 for it at the start of the first set.

"Resetting the momentum" or not, you'd have to be a real killer to take out GO1, and SonicFox did just that. Nothing wrong with how he conducted himself.

OHRye said:

I know this is a tough thread to follow, but Fox specifically said he likes P1 because it's easier to do his opening move. Has nothing to do with being able to hold a combo

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I did also say that pad players have some inputs easier from P1. All in all, matches are minutes long though.

Sephzilla said:

The first time he had a Shenron summon I can understand the health. The second time I think he had enough health that he could have survived with sparking active.

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I checked the footage and at the time of the 2nd summon he had about 25% health (45%-ish if you add in blue health). I think at that point either one could've been a good choice, but he was probably unsure about landing a hit so he went with the survival route.

It's whatever, a non-issue.

"Icing" has been statistically proven to not have any significant effect on game outcomes in both professional basketball (ie calling a timeout to stop the other team's momentum) and professional football (ie icing the kicker). I don't expect it would have any significant effect on professionals in fighting games either.

Interficium said:

It's whatever, a non-issue.

"Icing" has been statistically proven to not have any significant effect on game outcomes in both professional basketball (ie calling a timeout to stop the other team's momentum) and professional football (ie icing the kicker). I don't expect it would have any significant effect on professionals in fighting games either.

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Yeah. I think people romanticize narratives too much in terms of explaining competitions. The momentum can always shift at the drop of a hat whether there's any noticeable changes in flow of the game or not. In an alternate reality Goichi proceeds to smoke him after the reset despite the switchup and we'd just explain how that's due to Goichi being fired up at SonicFox's annoying tactics and wanting to send a message.

Professor Beef said:

I checked the footage and at the time of the 2nd summon he had about 25% health (45%-ish if you add in blue health). I think at that point either one could've been a good choice, but he was probably unsure about landing a hit so he went with the survival route.

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i think the 2nd summon should have definitely went to sparking, 45% health plus sparking regen + the damage boost would have been more than enough to turn the tide of that battle. Plus if he would have gotten touched he would have survived and probably forced SF to burn a ton of meter.

It's not his fault Evo people took forever figuring out how to handle it. From my understanding, he was allowed to ask for the coin flip to determine sides.

GearDraxon said:

"hey guys, i don't follow baseball but this stocky gentleman is named "babe" like whaaaaat that's not even a real name?"

"i'm clearly not capable of engaging with the conversation at hand, so i thought i'd make the thread about me and my thoughts on some superficial nonsense"

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Holy shit.

This is basically a summary of this board sometimes.

Sephzilla said:

i think the 2nd summon should have definitely went to sparking, 45% health plus sparking regen + the damage boost would have been more than enough to turn the tide of that battle. Plus if he would have gotten touched he would have survived and probably forced SF to burn a ton of meter.

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I'm in agreement here - Go1 made a bad call there. Sparking would have let him remove a touch from play and also given him that massive health regen and damage boost (which is especially potent with one character left). Really odd decision-making on his part.

The way some of you discuss this matter you'd think SonicFox made GO1 play with one arm tied behind his back.

"Dirty"? "Scumbag"? "Underhanded"?

He asked to switch spots after losing a set. LOL

Bragg said:

I explained why I brought it up in my post. I don't see why it's a big deal but I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason why people don't like it is a result of his histrionics.

Also i don't know what's hypocritical here.

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Holy shit, you actually used the word "histrionics". That's fuckin, just, wow, man.

KCsoLucky said:

That sums up the vast majority of takes when it comes to any competitive or high level gaming on a general board like Era.

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It's just silly. I watched yesterday on a whim, having no idea who any of these players were (I could name Daigo, but don't know what he looks like), and I ended up jumping out of my seat for those Lil Majin matches, etc. To wander into a thread like this and have nothing more to offer than "hur hur, he's dressed like a fox" is to announce one's willful ignorance and lack of respect for what others enjoy... in the same medium you do!

Toxi said:

"Dirty"? "Scumbag"? "Underhanded"?

He asked to switch spots after losing a set. LOL

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It was legal, and he was in the right to do it. Hell, he's a fucking genius for doing it. But, it is absofuckinglutely dirty and underhanded.

The thing a lot of people are missing here, is that the actual switch doesn't natter, the time does. The time it took allowed Sonic Fix to compose himself and think about his strategy, conversely it cooled Go1 down from the "winner's high" he had, he left tge "zone" so he wasnt playing as well as he could.

The coin flip doesn't fucking matter. It never did, the result would have been the same regardless of outcome.

But hey, gotta applaud Sonic Fox's genius for even thinking of it.

Side switch for an airdasher seems pointless and Fox and Go1 are too good for something like that to really affect them anyway, but the staff dragging it out definitely had an effect. Whether they did it on purpose or were just slow from being tired, who knows

GearDraxon said:

It's just silly. I watched yesterday on a whim, having no idea who any of these players were (I could name Daigo, but don't know what he looks like), and I ended up jumping out of my seat for those Lil Majin matches, etc. To wander into a thread like this and have nothing more to offer than "hur hur, he's dressed like a fox" is to announce one's willful ignorance and lack of respect for what others enjoy... in the same medium you do!

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One thing I will note is that to the uninitiated I feel like it's possible that you might just be slightly confused as to what is even going on if you know literally nothing about SonicFox. However, I do generally agree with most of the adversarial responses here in that a lot of people seem to be acting incredulously to knowing he's a furry as opposed to just genuinely being bewildered that there's a guy in a costume for some reason that you're not quite sure of.

Vicious17 said:

It was legal, and he was in the right to do it. Hell, he's a fucking genius for doing it. But, it is absofuckinglutely dirty and underhanded.

The thing a lot of people are missing here, is that the actual switch doesn't natter, the time does. The time it took allowed Sonic Fix to compose himself and think about his strategy, conversely it cooled Go1 down from the "winner's high" he had, he left tge "zone" so he wasnt playing as well as he could.

The coin flip doesn't fucking matter. It never did, the result would have been the same regardless of outcome.

But hey, gotta applaud Sonic Fox's genius for even thinking of it.

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SF wasn't responsible for the time it took. He just wanted to switch sides, which would have taken all of 10 seconds if anybody else other than SF actually knew the rules. Unless you think he is some kind of diabolical psychic genius who could predict that the event organizers didn't know their own rules, leading to a lengthy delay, then the fault for that is not with him.

SG-17 said:

Notwithstanding anything else here but shouldn't we strive for esports to have more legitimacy than pro wrestling? To be a real sport instead of a scripted spectacle?

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Man, let me introduce you to CEO




Esports is Esports, it's its own thing with its own quirks especially when talking about the FGC.

Great finals and both played great. SonicFox did beat him to send him into losers before so it's not out of the question to see him do it again after a set loss. He didn't crack under the pressure.

Forkball said:

A man wore a giant blue fox head.

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I've seen entirely naked people in stadiums.
What's your point?

NinjaScooter said:

SF wasn't responsible for the time it took. He just wanted to switch sides, which would have taken all of 10 seconds if anybody else other than SF actually knew the rules. Unless you think he is some kind of diabolical psychic genius who could predict that the event organizers didn't know their own rules, leading to a lengthy delay, then the fault for that is not with him.

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Hey. :p

Seriously though, Sonic Fox is legitimately one of the best and smartest fighting game players of all time. Im not saying he predicted what would happen but even the switch itself, even if it was smooth and both parties agreed, woukd have given him enough time to think. Certainly more than just going straight to the next round would have. It just worked out that it took significantly longer.

ParanoidRED said:

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This got me lmfao

Vicious17 said:

Hey. :p

Seriously though, Sonic Fox is legitimately one of the best and smartest fighting game players of all time. Im not saying he predicted what would happen but even the switch itself, even if it was smooth and both parties agreed, woukd have given him enough time to think. Certainly more than just going straight to the next round would have. It just worked out that it took significantly longer.

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So then why is taking time to think, within the scope of the rules, "dirty and underhanded"? People just want drama. They want controversy. Every story has to have a villain. Someone has to have "choked"! How about a guy just beat another guy at a video game. Sometimes it's just that simple.

I said this on Twitter and I will say it here.

If you get all the way to Grand Finals after 3 days of fighting your way through a thousand plus competitors and DON'T use a TOURNAMENT LEGAL ruling then you need to get:

A) Your head checked.
and
B)A pen to write my broke ass a check since you clearly don't need the money lol.

It kind of reminds me of Dragon who Aquaman Trident Rushed his way to first place in Injustice 2 at Evo. There was a lot of salt (myself included), but the reality is they're not there just to please the audience. There's money at stake and a lot of hours grinding the game to be made worth something. Also:

1. Sonic could have lost the coin toss and remained on P2. (Though time passed would have still affected Go1 possibly).
2. If Go1 was in Winners and the bracket got reset, he would ALSO have been well within his rights to ask for a coin toss. This wasn't an "ONLY FOR SONICFOX" rule.
3. Sonic stomped him in Winners finals so it's not like the fucking P1 side chair did all the work. Him defeating Go1 was in no way unprecedented as he had just done it an hour or so before (and at tourneys before that).

Total scumbag move that, within the rules, falls on the TO to fix and discourage. This isn't an issue of tech or troubleshooting, it is breaking momentum and poor sportsmanship.

KnuckleDu did the same shit against SnakeEyez years ago and it was scummy then.

Surviving against your opponent's momentum and gathering yourself mid-match is a big part of fighting games. You shouldn't need to be able to take five fucking minutes to compose yourself.

Why not just let them pause the game, and give the opponent a 5 second countdown, for how incredibly impactful it is on the game?

Why are people even discussing about it? You never watched any sports? Timeout, faking injury, running back to your side with the ball? Those dont ring a bell?

If Go1 was better he would have won. Period.

Etrian Oddity said:

Total scumbag move that, within the rules, falls on the TO to fix and discourage. This isn't an issue of tech or troubleshooting, it is breaking momentum and poor sportsmanship.

KnuckleDu did the same shit against SnakeEyez years ago and it was scummy then.

Surviving against your opponent's momentum and gathering yourself mid-match is a big part of fighting games. You shouldn't need to be able to take five fucking minutes to compose yourself.

Why not just let them pause the game, and give the opponent a 5 second countdown, for how incredibly impactful it is on the game?

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Surviving a momentum loss/shift and figuring out how to keep yourself composed during 5+ minute breaks (as SF had to do while he waited for losers bracket to sort itself out) is also seemingly a big part of these competitions.

Seriously? "Scumbag"? Some of you guys sound unhinged.

Not to derail the thread too much, but I'm reading some of these comments of how "This was a scumbag move!" and I'm thinking to myself, "Do no one watch the Smash For Wii U Grand Finals?"



Say what you will of SonicFox but at least he wasn't playing to annoy the crowd.

NinjaScooter said:

So then why is taking time to think, within the scope of the rules, "dirty and underhanded"? People just want drama. They want controversy. Every story has to have a villain. Someone has to have "choked"! How about a guy just beat another guy at a video game. Sometimes it's just that simple.

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Again, because it kills momentum. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it a nice thing to do.

For the record, in case there's any confusion, Im not saying Sonic Fox is "dirty" or a "scumbag" or whatever else. Im saying the move itself is. Hell, Sonic is a goddamn genius for exploiting it to his advantage.