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BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
Doesn't change the fact there is good vs bad, which your explanations and clarifications have actually supported more than your original comment...

Nothing I've said supports a view of politics involving "good people" vs. "bad people" as was my original statement. I think there are logical reasons to prefer either collectivist or individualist notions of the role of the state, and I don't think of either position as necessarily morally good or bad.

No, you're stretching there. There is no "free" in any sense if you want a fair society, as people are not free to go around raping and pillaging.

So you could stretch that to any point, but the Good Vs Bad part is obvious: people making claims that gun rights greater than the lives of children, nazi's should be given a platform because "free speech", etc...

And you know this.

There's no stretch. You could easily have a society where you pay nothing in taxes, and get nothing in return, and you'd be truly free to use your wealth as you see fit. I think your "fair society" comment hints as a society with a police force funded by taxpayers, and the logic of that is actually a society that has placed the slider of "individualism" vs "collectivism" to a certain point 1% closer to collectivism. We could easily debate if the slider should be 0% or 100%.
 

Sulik2

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,168
There is more to JFK's assassination.
Global corporations have plans to take over governmental activities once civilization collapses.
Alien life has to exist somewhere in the universe.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
I believe there are beings that are in some way sentient that exist in dimensions we can't perceive. If someone says they see a spirit or something they are most likely crazy, but at the same time I don't 100% dismiss it.

Not necessarily in a religious way, just the universe and the universes that could exist outside of our universe are so crazy that something like that seems very conceivable to me
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
Nothing I've said supports a view of politics involving "good people" vs. "bad people" as was my original statement. I think there are logical reasons to prefer either collectivist or individualist notions of the role of the state, and I don't think of either position as necessarily morally good or bad.

Yes it does, you admitted things about the government that prove this to be true.

There is absolutely something morally bad about supporting things that perpetuate systemic racism, for example, and we could both pull up countless examples.

Please stop playing coy.

There's no stretch. You could easily have a society where you pay nothing in taxes, and get nothing in return, and you'd be truly free to use your wealth as you see fit. I think your "fair society" comment hints as a society with a police force funded by taxpayers, and the logic of that is actually a society that has placed the slider of "individualism" vs "collectivism" to a certain point 1% closer to collectivism. We could easily debate if the slider should be 0% or 100%.

It's a stretch, You know exactly what is meant by "freedoms being limited" when the right talk about the left in the context of the point I'm making, and you know how many perfect examples there are of the right dong this in a dishonest and unjust way that signifies their position as "bad".

I mean, you're right in that there will be examples that aren't Good Vs Bad, but denying it's actually happening that way is either dishonest or deluded.
 

Azraes

Member
Oct 28, 2017
997
London
Disclaimer: These aren't 'beliefs' per se, just random thoughts that seem probable. Plus fuel for stuff I write.

Everything that's matter/energy in the universe has information. Dark energy is essentially the energy without that information. Consciousness which is a form of expression of the universe function helps in converting dark energy to dark matter which eventually becomes matter. When there is no more dark matter or dark energy left in the universe is when this universe ends. A lot of things we imagine or think true end up coming into existence at some point in the universe. Dark matter is the state before it comes into existence in the 'known' universe and dark energy before it becomes an aspect of consciousness. Everything that cannot be imagined by a sentience is what dark energy technically is. However as the quantity of sentience increases therefore also does the amount of dark energy therefore it getting used up takes an amount of time that we cannot fathom.

Unless of course dark energy/dark matter is basically just all those dimensions upto n=11 (perhaps 26) that we cannot perceive in this 3D+ position in Time world.

Also there are plenty of things that we do not perceive to have sentience that most likely actually do but in ways we cannot understand such as stars.

Fiction is a way of creating/moulding reality (not necessarily ours). We just haven't understood how it works as yet.
 

Emobacca

Member
Nov 2, 2017
783
The world is nowhere near as doom and gloom as the front page of OT here will lead you to believe
 

Oaklight

Avenger
Jun 16, 2018
933
I believe that people only create friendships to get something out of the other person. There are very few real friendships in the world and this is why most of them end abruptly at the most trivial of things.

I believe that dogs are more intelligent than we think.

Dogs are better than people, but that's something I can prove because everyone knows it's true already. Just admit it.
 

fireflame

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,275
I want to believe afterlife exists because i need hope, as naive as I may look stating this.
 

Air

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,262
-That there is probably a God
-That an after life exists
-That there is some level of consciousness in all things (this is kind of a sub category of the first one)

I don't try to out right discount anything (it's a big universe you know), but I think these three things are the most important for me
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
Yes it does, you admitted things about the government that prove this to be true.

There is absolutely something morally bad about supporting things that perpetuate systemic racism, for example, and we could both pull up countless examples.

Please stop playing coy.

I'll swallow my pride. You're well argued so I'll concede: Trump literally dog whistling to racists is a good vs. bad issue. I don't like it, and I'd combat it if I could on moral ground. Point taken.

Maybe I should have said strictly that left vs right is not necessarily a good vs. bad issue. Think about if we were in a voluantary social situation like a party. Should we have "bring your own booze", or all pitch in a pool to buy our drinks together? That's the main question of politics that is treated as if it were morality, but is rather arbitrary due to our personal views.

I hate republicans when they start wars or pander to racists, so yes, politics can be about good vs bad. But when it comes to taxes and socialized programs which is most of what government is actually about, I don't think its actually a question of good vs evil.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
I'll swallow my pride. You're well argued so I'll concede: Trump literally dog whistling to racists is a good vs. bad issue. I don't like it, and I'd combat it if I could on moral ground. Point taken.

Maybe I should have said strictly that left vs right is not necessarily a good vs. bad issue. Think about if we were in a voluantary social situation like a party. Should we have "bring your own booze", or all pitch in a pool to buy our drinks together? That's the main question of politics that is treated as if it were morality, but is rather arbitrary due to our personal views.

I hate republicans when they start wars or pander to racists, so yes, politics can be about good vs bad. But when it comes to taxes and socialized programs which is most of what government is actually about, I don't think its actually a question of good vs evil.

Thanks Boco.

This reiterated point I can agree with.
 

Hentailover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,416
Moscow
What kind of energy? When I was little, I sure wished batteries would leave some leftover energy for my Game Boy to use ;(

It's very hard to argue this without coming off as some sort of fedora tipping atheist, but I feel like people that talk about "energies" and such, have like no actual understanding what energy actually is. They imagine it same way shounen anime does. As some magical mana juice of sorts.
 
Oct 25, 2017
614
Newcastle, UK
Right but the meat in your skull creates electrical waves that sends a signal from synapse to synpase. For sentient thoughts to exist on the level that exists within human, the energy of those electric waves have to be way beyond normal levels, to a point where there might be residue after life.
This contradicts the second law of thermodynamics, there's nothing to maintain that energy so it quickly dissipates. Brian Cox (physicist, worked at CERN) briefly covers this in an episode of the Infinite Monkey Cage podcast and also noted that it's inconceivable that there's some other unknown force at work that could maintain the brains energy after death because the same particles that are interacting in your brain have been intensely studied in the large hadron collider and it wouldn't have escaped detection if it existed. This isn't a shaky area of the standard model with holes for you to pin hope on, these are rigorously tested fundemental laws. Ignoring all scientific evidence on this one thing and expecting those laws to be rewritten to account for ghosts is unreasonable. To believe in ghosts is to believe in magic.
 

Rand a. Thor

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
10,213
Greece
This contradicts the second law of thermodynamics, there's nothing to maintain that energy so it quickly dissipates. Brian Cox (physicist, worked at CERN) briefly covers this in an episode of the Infinite Monkey Cage podcast and also noted that it's inconceivable that there's some other unknown force at work that could maintain the brains energy after death because the same particles that are interacting in your brain have been intensely studied in the large hadron collider and it wouldn't have escaped detection if it existed. This isn't a shaky area of the standard model with holes for you to pin hope on, these are rigorously tested fundemental laws. Ignoring all scientific evidence on this one thing and expecting those laws to be rewritten to account for ghosts is unreasonable. To believe in ghosts is to believe in magic.
Well I aint no scientist so I had no idea about this. Ah well, you win some you lose some.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
Let it never be said that forum discussions can't change minds lol. Have a good night (/day, etc) astro.

I don't think the discussion changed your mind. I'm assuming you were/are/have been frustrated with some absolutist thinking stating "all right leaning politics are bad"? And I can understand how that could drive a person to kind of wall up a little in-kind.

I often get muddied when I'm frustrated and say some absolutist stuff, if that's the case I can fully understand.

Also, it's morning in the Uk and too hot and sweaty to be anything near a good day lol (second cold shower and change of clothes incoming...), but thank you for the wishes!


I hope that wasn't aimed at me, because the statement I was replying to needed the clarification.
 
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DrKelpo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,861
Germany
The world is nowhere near as doom and gloom as the front page of OT here will lead you to believe

The world is actually much much more terrible than the front page suggests. Most people on this forum are aware of horrible things in the world but still live in their respective bubble where everything is more or less fine.
The majority of people on this planet can only dream about having a life with the luxury of browsing a video game forum for fun every day.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I hope that wasn't aimed at me, because the statement I was replying to needed the clarification.

His statement was that the world is a better place than the news might make it appear (which is correct since good news aren't reported as much).

Relative well being of individuals has nothing to do with that.
 

Shadybiz

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,107
Definitely believe in intelligent life on other planets. The numbers alone make it pretty likely, but we simply don't know for sure.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
His statement was that the world is a better place than the news might make it appear (which is correct since good news aren't reported as much).

Relative well being of individuals has nothing to do with that.

Don't be absurd, lol.

For a start, you can't quantify the amount of good news out there that could possibly balance all the bad news as much of it is anecdotal and incredibly subjective, which makes your final sentence completely ridiculous and unaware of itself.

The world being a good or bad place is absolutely relative to your position as an individual, and your own privilege is probably showing here when you state otherwise.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,850
Mount Airy, MD
That the universe might as well be a living thing, and we're basically no different than the bacteria in our gut: there to serve a purpose somewhere in the process and just another part of the mechanistic processes that play out--not free-willed beings of any particular moral significance.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
I have a sneaking suspicion that Trump is actively doing everything he can to undermine the legitimacy of this country, all as a favor to Russia.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
The world being a good or bad place is absolutely relative to your position as an individual, and your own privilege is probably showing here when you state otherwise.

Again I never disagreed with this. It is absolutely relative. The world is how it is and the news either give an accurate image of it or better/worse than it is. He argues it's a worse image and I agree.
 

Stick

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,295
Surely, this can't be true? Maybe my Catholic surrounded ass is ignorant, but I think here, most people would a knowledge Jesus was obviously much darker than the fair-haired boy we often see on western depictions.
Yeah, I can't speak for everywhere, but I live in south Oklahoma, where the idea that the white man portrayal of Jesus is absolute. It'd be blasphemy for me to even entertain the thought that Jesus was anything but white, with the people I'm around. It's mainly ignorant people, but unfortunately, my town is filled with them.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
Again I never disagreed with this. It is absolutely relative. The world is how it is and the news either give an accurate image of it or better/worse than it is. He argues it's a worse image and I agree.

It is relative or it's not relative?

Make up your mind.

Again, the clarification was needed and your "no shit" was pointless.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
Whether the news are accurate or not is not relative. Your personal situation (that is relative) in life doesn't affect that outcome. The first question is scientific/statistical.

Lmao @ scientific/ statistical.

You're so sure it's better, let's see those reciepts or are you just pulling the idea from somewhere that doesn't get much sunlight?
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Lmao @ scientific/ statistical.

You're so sure it's better, let's see those reciepts or are you just pulling the idea from somewhere that doesn't get much sunlight?
I mean, we live in the most peaceful period in human history, with better medical care and food for more people than ever before. If everything is shit, then at least it's not as bad as before. I think it's important to not forget that, even if we keep edging closer to ending this relatively nice period.

In any case, the news absolutely focus on the negative side of everything, meaning it's easy for things to be better overall than they appear from the news.

Yeah, I can't speak for everywhere, but I live in south Oklahoma, where the idea that the white man portrayal of Jesus is absolute. It'd be blasphemy for me to even entertain the thought that Jesus was anything but white, with the people I'm around. It's mainly ignorant people, but unfortunately, my town is filled with them.
That's horrifying.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
56,888
I mean, we live in the most peaceful period in human history, with better medical care and food for more people than ever before. If everything is shit, then at least it's not as bad as before. I think it's important to not forget that, even if we keep edging closer to ending this relatively nice period.

In any case, the news absolutely focus on the negative side of everything, meaning it's easy for things to be better overall than they appear from the news..

Sorry, but there's more than enough suffering in the world that is very real, quantifiable, and constant that the idea that things are "better than they seem" is only true if you're in a position where you privilege shields you from all the harm happening, or you just don't really care about it.

When we get to the point the news isn't flooded with awful things and pointless suffering causes by selfish natures, apathy, and hate, then we can talk.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,190
That I am unemployable at any job except menial labor and sometimes not even that..

I have a degree from a well respected university and couldn't get any entry level job in my field.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Sorry, but there's more than enough suffering in the world that is very real, quantifiable, and constant that the idea that things are "better than they seem" is only true if you're in a position where you privilege shields you from all the harm happening, or you just don't really care about it.

When we get to the point the news isn't flooded with awful things and pointless suffering causes by selfish natures, apathy, and hate, then we can talk.
But... That's exactly the point. That the news are flooded with awful things makes it much much easier to be better on average than it appears. I believe you're misunderstanding the original statement.

If there are 100 bad things and 10 good thing, but the news tell you about 80 bad things and 2 good things.. Things are better than they appear.

As I think that news media focus primarily on the bad, I believe the world is better than the news would make it seem.

This is about the overall state of the world/humanity, not me as an individual.
 

Hokahey

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,288
A situation of collectivism or individualism has negative or positive consequences for society, yes. But my point is that most people relate to the struggle between collectivism and individualism in a very tribal in-group out-group way, thinking of the other as bad evil people and such.

It's easy to call right wingers racist if they don't want the government to actively stamp out racism with programs or rhetoric, but they have a belief that the government shouldn't take any role in being the guide of society in any way.

It's easy to call left wingers anti-freedom because they advocate for a non-optional role as a citizen with economic privileges and responsibilities under a specific government regime, but they want to shape society in a practical way and provide social safety nets that help people.

The struggle of We vs. I is a question that will be debated until the end of time, but we act as if those who have chosen one or the other are bad people, when it's simply not the case. The major political choices of the world are all logical in the broad view and choosing one or the other is not a moral failing. The truly negative manifestation of politics (right wing Fascism and Communist totalitarianism) come from extremist versions of the choices between individualism and collectivism, while mild implementations of either would not be inherently immoral.

Perhaps it is logical to demonize extremist implementations of either right or left... but we act on the left as if right is immoral, and vice versa, and that's just tribal squabbling over a simple question of collectivism vs individualism.

This might be the most intelligent post I've read on ERA.
 

Subpar Scrub

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,576
My taste in entertainment is the best and everyone else is wrong