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DF Retro H2O Part 2: Water Rendering in Super Mario Sunshine and Beyond!
- Thread starter MouldyK
- Start date
Article to go along with it:
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...e-history-of-water-rendering-in-classic-games
post-thread-merge edit
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...e-history-of-water-rendering-in-classic-games
post-thread-merge edit
Because water is serious business!
(I loved the last episode and I clicked on this so quickly)
Its an absolutely great watch! Thank you for putting it all together for us.
Part 1 was amazing. Both broad and deep, covering the big guns and also lesser-known gems like Terra Nova, with carefully-curated footage that gives appropriate coverage to technical, visual, and gameplay aspects. Along with Mark Brown's Game Maker's Toolkit, this is the best video game commentary on YouTube. One small suggestion: the creator should caption the game name, platform, and year, rather than just saying it.
Watching Part 2 now.
Watching Part 2 now.
Those were two really well done videos. I love how they casually end with a video of real waterfalls, showing how much room for improvement still exists. Water was never easy.
All in all a really good video. It's great see so many 6th gen titles explored.
However, I'd like to point out an oversight, albeit an obscure one that I can't blame John for missing. In the original Far Cry, the game used an obscure Windows function during water reflection to prevent objects on the other side of the water appearing in the reflection that was broken after Windows XP, resulting in landmasses disappearing from reflections in Vista onwards. This was recently fixed in a fan patch. https://github.com/CookiePLMonster/SilentPatchFarCry The holes John noticed are a result of this bug.
However, I'd like to point out an oversight, albeit an obscure one that I can't blame John for missing. In the original Far Cry, the game used an obscure Windows function during water reflection to prevent objects on the other side of the water appearing in the reflection that was broken after Windows XP, resulting in landmasses disappearing from reflections in Vista onwards. This was recently fixed in a fan patch. https://github.com/CookiePLMonster/SilentPatchFarCry The holes John noticed are a result of this bug.
Gonna watch right now. I hope to see banjo kz and conker.
Still waiting RE by the way.
The section on faked water caustics in games like FEAR got me thinking. I don't think any game on the market features truly realtime water caustics. But Crysis 3 did have a fairly nifty trick that falls apart scrutiny but solves the problem of rippling water not affecting the environment lighting.
When you ripple the water, it's like there's this localized wave of light that accompanies it, playing across the environment. The reason the effect falls apart is because the caustic effects appear even if there's no logical light source for them. In a proper simulation, you'd be able to see the source of the reflected/distorted light. That said, it's dynamic caustics which you don't see often.
When you ripple the water, it's like there's this localized wave of light that accompanies it, playing across the environment. The reason the effect falls apart is because the caustic effects appear even if there's no logical light source for them. In a proper simulation, you'd be able to see the source of the reflected/distorted light. That said, it's dynamic caustics which you don't see often.
These are maybe my favorite DF Retro videos so far, great work!
I do kinda feel like water rendering has progressed a bit slower this gen compared to others, though I think there's some exciting stuff in the future. Specifically, I was absolutely floored by the (very) brief display of water in the Halo Infinite teaser.
I do kinda feel like water rendering has progressed a bit slower this gen compared to others, though I think there's some exciting stuff in the future. Specifically, I was absolutely floored by the (very) brief display of water in the Halo Infinite teaser.
Weather in general would be a great topic to cover, could include games like the one in your gif, or the "How the fuck did they pull this off on a Wii" snow seen in Silent Hill Shattered Memories. Or the still massively impressive thunderstorms in Stalker.Shame there were not many examples of excellent water tech in gen8. Something like "top10" water tech in gen8 could be agreat video.
Hopefully, visual effects of rain and snow will be next :)
This was my most anticipated sequel of the year.
The first 15 minutes was already amazing. I love hearing the technical explanations, all the way down to hardware memory tricks. Great work by DF.
The first 15 minutes was already amazing. I love hearing the technical explanations, all the way down to hardware memory tricks. Great work by DF.
Wolf 2 has a similar effect as Crysis 3, but won't 'real' water caustics require photon mapping as well as incredible fluid simulation? We'll be lucky if we see that in real time in our lifetimes.
Hydrophobia was something else. The way water flows into rooms is extremely cool.
Still Bioshock to me is still the best water in gaming. Mainly because it is artistic and not merely simulated. It is a collection of brushes to paint each single scene to perfection.
To think that most of the water effects in that game were done by a single person is just amazing.
Still Bioshock to me is still the best water in gaming. Mainly because it is artistic and not merely simulated. It is a collection of brushes to paint each single scene to perfection.
To think that most of the water effects in that game were done by a single person is just amazing.
It's really impressive just how well Bioshock holds up visually. In an era that was rapidly being taken over by UE3, getting a UE2.5 game that more than kept up with games on the newer engine was quite the feat, and it's a testament to how fantastic the art direction was in that game.
The answer to "where is x game" is not enough time to include more examples. He pretty much says so in the video. Otherwise, there would probably be a part 3
Woohoo! Was really excited for part 2. I was surprised he covered Wind Waker since it was cel-shaded, but I guess the amount of water in the game can't be ignored even if it didn't mesh with the other examples in the game.
I'm glad John has discovered (at least that's the first time I've heard his music used in DF Retro) Ryu Umemoto, losing him back in the 2011 was IMO the second biggest loss in the gaming industry (after Iwata).
Great video as always, always the high point of my Sunday.
Great video as always, always the high point of my Sunday.
Great video as usual DF!
One thing I always noticed with Halo 3 are the ripple animations cutting off after a split second. You can see it too here at around 28:12.
Also, what was that one FPS PC game that used nvidia physx fo water simulation? I don't think it was a good game but it was one of thise early titles known for physx support
One thing I always noticed with Halo 3 are the ripple animations cutting off after a split second. You can see it too here at around 28:12.
Also, what was that one FPS PC game that used nvidia physx fo water simulation? I don't think it was a good game but it was one of thise early titles known for physx support
No game has true caustics (physically accurate caustics are a pain in the ass to render and probably won't be fully accurate until spectral rendering becomes the standard), but Crytek's caustic solutions are pretty advanced considering how they factor in the index of refraction into the equation.
I should probably give some honorable mentions to Nintendo as well.
Pikmin 3 on the Wii U has fully interactive caustics. Not too often that you see that! Not physically accurate in terms of IOR, but correlates well with the water's behavior.
And Super Mario Odyssey's 3D caustics are PBR based, so the reflectivity of the caustics will depend on the material it's interacting with. It does NOT, however, correlate with the water's vertex displacement, despite being a real-time effect. I assume this is because the performance cost of doing so would be too high.
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I loved both parts of this feature. Still, a lot of interesting games were entirely ignored. Almost all Xbox 360 era Rare games deserved at least some footage, and while I understand not featuring Sea of Thieves (it got its own video), Kinect Sports Rivals should've been there. Likewise, some smaller titles like Undertow, and Super Rub 'a' Dub. Shame about Uncharted as well.
But I won't complain too much, this was still beautifully done, as always.
But I won't complain too much, this was still beautifully done, as always.
I mentioned it in the first part. Far Cry 5 was used to show limitations of SSR and why people complain about it.
This is why I've always been a fan of the visual direction that Nintendo takes with their bigger titles, since for as seemingly simple as they look due to the more cartoonish art styles, they're also doing some incredibly advanced work behind the scenes that helps to make those worlds feel all the more tangible. Pikmin is an especially good example to bring up, since they've always done stuff that's really impressive from a technological standpoint.
IIRC GTAV implements it for small bodies of water like swimming pools, though they're faked too.
Part 1 was a bit boring but I appreciate these kind of videos, will download it for my next flight.
Give us some snow too!
Give us some snow too!
Oh, sorry, for some reason I thought the first one was up until the PS2.
I enjoyed it very much anyway, keep up the great work.