Pokemon is toothless now

MegaManTrigger said:

Emerald allowed you to play through the game by counteracting both Team Aqua and Team Magma's plans, which made the environmental balance themes much stronger, and did a decent job showing how Archie and Maxie both realized they were idiots for thinking more land/sea would solve the problem. By reverting back to Ruby and Sapphire's formula where you have to stop only one of the team's plans, it weakens the whole environmental balance that they were going for. You also see the other team functioning in ORAS, but barely ever hear from them within the story. Moreover, it makes this scene very pointless:

Why you may ask? Because what is the point of showing the lore of Hoenn's past if we're never going to actually see it? At least in Emerald, we were told how devastating it was to see Groudon and Kyogre diametrically opposing one another until Rayquaza balances them out. They could easily have re-interpreted that lore that we saw in Emerald by having both Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon clash until Mega-Rayquaza ends the war. Not to mention, there's such a strange irony in how the cave paintings almost fit together as one puzzle, but yet get split off for stupid version exclusivity reasons.

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I guess I get your point. Essentially it boils down to, it was a remake of RS, not Emerald. I know that's stupid, but it is what is.

Still salty over no Battle Frontier. Would've made ORAS one of the series best if it was included. Goddamnit.

Honestly, the shift in focus comes down to this.

Pokemon is a significantly more social game now. The longevity doesn't come from extended challenges where you smash your face against the computer in a single player experience, it comes from raising Pokemon and interacting with the meta game and events like Battle Spot and special promotions. On top of that, the target audience has shifted, and the amount of time that Pokemon's target audience is willing to invest in the game honestly has shifted. Even Pokemon's direct competitors have focused primarily on a building a primary story in terms of one event following the other. Yo-Kai Watch? Isn't really a very open-ended game either.

So the single player is more about the world you're going through itself, not cramming it full of content. This means making it overall more cinematic and story-focused. The difficulty is low because the challenge is, again, focused on those willing to invest time in the social aspect and metagame, and stuff that are honestly more about the grind (the HGSS Safari Zone is the worst example of this of all time) fall by the wayside. Their focus is more on giving people access to a wide variety of Pokemon to use to go through the story how they choose, without having to worry about things like only being able to get Yanma on a certain day of the week, because again, that's not something the target audience is really going to be excited about in the year of 2018.

Sandfox said:

They aren't going to do that because they want really young kids who watch the anime to play the games as well. There are ways to appeal to both audiences in that regard though.

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I honestly don't think kids need as much hand-holding and tutorial as the games believe they do.

Usually I don't agree with simplify game franchise to make it more mainstream and accessible.

But Pokemon games have gotten so stale and samey for many iteration, I think taking the Pokemon Go route is a breath of fresh air.

Hero of Legend said:

I blame Satoshi Tajiri stepping down after I think it was RS or FRLG as director and handing the role to Masuda.

Satoshi was a pioneer, that man took risks and frankly didn't miss a beat, plus you had Iwata on hand to save the day (getting GS small enough to fit in Kanto was his doing).

I guess when the series got so big and having to lead more folks, he just couldn't do it anymore and I think all he ever does is "Executive Producer" which to me is nothing more than him saying "okay yeah, this won't tank the franchise".

Get this man back to calling the shots and out of Masuda's hands bar the music (he was the mastermind behind the series' music in the GB days). It just feels to me Masuda wants to be WAY too by the book and safe. I'm not sure if he's that much of an innovator at all. My impression is that if he had it his way the series wouldn't evolve at all. Let's Go seems to show that pretty vividly.

Doesn't help that Masuda also is the head of Game Freak now, making it much worse.

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As far as I know, Tajiri is a executive for decades and part of the board of directors at Gamefreak. He's in a higher position than Masuda at the company (and same on the board) and many staff as well. He's not interested in developing anymore, which shows since he's just executive producer. It's not like he disagree with Masuda or other Pokémon directors since as someone with high position, he continues to approve it.

Pokemaniac said:

The Battle Frontier was sitting right where the Crystal Battle Tower was. Going from a Battle Tower in the 3rd version to a Battle Frontier in the remake is clearly an upgrade where the reverse is not.

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I don't really believe in giving them credit for meaningfully expanding on Crystal's content when all they did was copy paste content made for another game.

Sandfox said:

What was in Ruby and Sapphire that was cut from ORAS?

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The ability to explore Granite Cave and catch an Aron, Sableye, or Mawile before the Mach Bike for starters.

Really fun having to backtrack halfway across Hoenn to grab an underleveled Aron because Gamefreak forgot to scale the trainer and wild Pokemon levels to the moment in the game where you can actually encounter them.

Metallix87 said:

I would love it if Gen 8 starts off as follows:

Professor Oak starts explaining about the world of Pokemon and how to catch Pokemon and such... and then suddenly, the camera pulls back and you see it's the TV on in the background, and your Mom asks you to change the channel, as that program is for little kids, not someone about to start exploring the world on their Pokemon journey. You then get your first Pokemon, five Pokeballs, and two Potions from the game's Professor, and are just let loose to do things as you want.

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Or better yet, let the player FUCKING CHOOSE if they want to change the channel or not, with a prompt recommending that new players might want to read the tutorials. It's such a simple concept to give the player options, and yet after 20 years Gamefreak still has yet to comprehend it.

lvl 99 Pixel said:

Can we get 1 Pokemon thread where this kind of hyperbole isn't prevalent? The games are not looking like Big Rigs.

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Hyperbole? No, that's just my honest, well-informed, opinion based on everything I've seen from Let's Go thus far.

Metallix87 said:

I honestly don't think kids need as much hand-holding and tutorial as the games believe they do.

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I would imagine the reason why there's more tutorials and stuff is because of feedback they received. I remember people saying that they received complaints over the caves and mountains in gen 4, but I'm not sure how true it is. Either way the trend right now with casual stuff seems to be simplification and we're seeing that being put to the test with Go and Let's Go.

RochHoch said:

Or better yet, let the player FUCKING CHOOSE if they want to change the channel or not, with a prompt recommending that new players might want to read the tutorials. It's such a simple concept to give the player options, and yet after 20 years Gamefreak still has yet to comprehend it.

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I didn't even think of that, but that's actually genius.

Sandfox said:

I would imagine the reason why there's more tutorials and stuff is because of feedback they received. I remember people saying that they received complaints over the caves and mountains in gen 4, but I'm not sure how true it is. Either way the trend right now with casual stuff seems to be simplification and we're seeing that being put to the test with Go and Let's Go.

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Gen 4 is Gen 4. There were a lot of complaints about kids getting lost in that world, but I largely think that was resolved with the linear worlds of Gen 5 and on. I don't think the extensive tutorials, hand-holding, and linearity. I don't mind simple, but simple doesn't need to be explained in extreme detail to me time after time.

RochHoch said:

Hyperbole? No, that's just my honest, well-informed, opinion based on everything I've seen from Let's Go thus far.

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Well then that's a very low bar for something to be ridiculously shitty

N. Tyranno said:

I don't really believe in giving them credit for meaningfully expanding on Crystal's content when all they did was copy paste content made for another game.

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It's certainly much better than reducing it like ORAS did. And the copy and paste cones off much worse there because the Battle Maison feels pretty out of place in Hoenn. They didn't even include Anabel.

Sandfox said:

I would imagine the reason why there's more tutorials and stuff is because of feedback they received. I remember people saying that they received complaints over the caves and mountains in gen 4, but I'm not sure how true it is. Either way the trend right now with casual stuff seems to be simplification and we're seeing that being put to the test with Go and Let's Go.

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Sinnoh is very much the extreme here. Instead of pulling back slightly, we've gone to the opposite extreme.

And the problem here isn't that Gamefreak is making things simpler. Pokemon Red and Blue are not more complicated games than Pokemon X and Y (Quite the opposite). It's that Gamefreak is making things more cumbersome.

I agree that the newer games definitely hold your hand more, but Sun/Moon was far from a cakewalk when it came to the difficulty of Totem battles and Elite Four battles.

Unlike X/Y, you actually had to work for your wins. Gen 8 could totally be different than what you expect, too. Maybe the sense of exploration could be returned with less linear routes.

Pokemaniac said:

It's certainly much better than reducing it like ORAS did. And the copy and paste cones off much worse there because the Battle Maison feels pretty out of place in Hoenn. They didn't even include Anabel.

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I'll admit his line of debate is kind of an exercise in give and take because I've never found the Battle Frontier particularly well designed in any incarnation.

Phantom Thief said:

I agree with the gist of your first paragraph.
That said, I do disagree with your second paragraph. To a super hardcore player, maybe the QoL improvements in XY don't matter as much, but they did to me. Even if Super Training personally didn't mean as much to you, PSS alone was a gigantic step forward for the series.
Pokemon Amie let me have my pet Pikachu like I always wanted, I will always love it lol

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But that's the thing, it didn't matter to me but they are features that have a lot of value to everyone else, that's why I don't understand why GF took out Super Training in Gen VII and replaced it with a much worse variant in the Pokepelago. They could easily have expanded the minigames to combat some of its problems such as repetition due to having to consistently play the same minigame to get specific EV boosts. I forgot to touch on PSS, and that feature in particular was godly for organizing online battles with friends or bystanders.

N. Tyranno said:

there is very little of Yellow at all in FRLG and all HGSS takes from Crystal that matters is the "Chase Suicune" plot.

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Um, Yellow is actually the fourth version of the games, with the third version being Blue in Japan. There was a reason the remake had Leaf Green instead of Water Blue, as they were homaging the original two games. The remakes didn't miss any content at all.

N. Tyranno said:

I'll admit his line of debate is kind of an exercise in give and take because I've never found the Battle Frontier particularly well designed in any incarnation.

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Okay? That's not really relevant when talking to people who like the Battle Frontier.

Castile said:

Um, Yellow is actually the fourth version of the games, with the third version being Blue in Japan. There was a reason the remake had Leaf Green instead of Water Blue, as they were homaging the original two games. The remakes didn't miss any content at all.

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Well, any content besides Giovanni's Rhydon, LOL

I completely agree OP! It's sad what has become of this series. Let's Go is the worst milking of a Nintendo IP I have ever seen:

• Another remake of the most beloved game/ region of the series for the Nostalgic crowd.
• PKM Go for the mass casuals that don't give two fucks about Pokemon or anything the series has ever been.
• Gimmicky gameplay controls to "wow" the under 5 crowd and their parents, combined with a useless add on device that exist for no reason other than easy money.
• 100% focus only on the first 151, once again for the ones who only liked/ played RBY.
• The most brain dead gameplay I have ever seen in an rpg. They all but removed the two things the whole entire IP is based on: Capturing and battling, and basically made it to where it's impossible to lose. Once again, all for the casual crowd.

All the things that made these games fun are gone. You can throw out all your sales numbers and try to defend all the moves Game Freak makes. At the end of the day, the series has gone down the shitter.

Hydrus said:

I completely agree OP! It's sad what has become of this series. Let's Go is the worst milking of a Nintendo IP I have ever seen:

• Another remake of the most beloved game/ region of the series for the Nostalgic crowd.
• PKM Go for the mass casuals that don't give two fucks about Pokemon or anything the series has ever been.
• Gimmicky gameplay controls to "wow" the under 5 crowd and their parents, combined with a useless add on device that exist for no reason other than easy money.
• 100% focus only on the first 151, once again for the ones who only liked/ played RBY.
• The most brain dead gameplay I have ever seen in an rpg. They all but removed the two things the whole entire IP is based on: Capturing and battling, and basically made it to where it's impossible to lose. Once again, all for the casual crowd.

All the things that made these games fun are gone. You can throw out all your sales numbers and try to defend all the moves Game Freak makes. At the end of the day, the series has gone down the shitter.

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If anything I would say that making a game targeting the Go audience while gen 8 is in development is smart.

Toxi said:

Okay? That's not really relevant when talking to people who like the Battle Frontier.

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I'm just acknowledging that there's only so much I can do to meet people halfway here. I generally prefer that the battle facilities be scaled down to a single, all-in-one location with a bit of theatrics. The Battle Frontier felt like an exercise in making multiple game modes that were either half baked or highly flawed, on top of the recurring issues with the balance of the CPU.

But even given that I don't think just recycling the Platinum content is to be lauded, or that it even carries the spirit of Crystal in a meaningful way. It's just there. It's padding.

Hydrus said:

I completely agree OP! It's sad what has become of this series. Let's Go is the worst milking of a Nintendo IP I have ever seen:

• Another remake of the most beloved game/ region of the series for the Nostalgic crowd.
• PKM Go for the mass casuals that don't give two fucks about Pokemon or anything the series has ever been.
• Gimmicky gameplay controls to "wow" the under 5 crowd and their parents, combined with a useless add on device that exist for no reason other than easy money.
• 100% focus only on the first 151, once again for the ones who only liked/ played RBY.
• The most brain dead gameplay I have ever seen in an rpg. They all but removed the two things the whole entire IP is based on: Capturing and battling, and basically made it to where it's impossible to lose. Once again, all for the casual crowd.

All the things that made these games fun are gone. You can throw out all your sales numbers and try to defend all the moves Game Freak makes. At the end of the day, the series has gone down the shitter.

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OP likes the Lets Go games.

Metallix87 said:

I really hope, when we get the inevitable Black & White remakes, that it somehow combines both B&W and B2&W2 into a single package.

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If they incorporate it like this somehow I'd mark the fuck

Keep the main protag from B/W after finishing the main quest, have them screw around in a new area until this point, then keep the same story beats from B2/W2 going forward until the end while still being Hilbert/Hilda

David___ said:

If they incorporate it like this somehow I'd mark the fuck

Keep the main protag from B/W after finishing the main quest, have them screw around in a new area until this point, then keep the same story beats from B2/W2 going forward until the end while still being Hilbert/Hilda

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Removing Nate and Hilda should not be encouraged or celebrated

N. Tyranno said:

I'm just acknowledging that there's only so much I can do to meet people halfway here. I generally prefer that the battle facilities be scaled down to a single, all-in-one location with a bit of theatrics. The Battle Frontier felt like an exercise in making multiple game modes that were either half baked or highly flawed, on top of the recurring issues with the balance of the CPU.

But even given that I don't think just recycling the Platinum content is to be lauded, or that it even carries the spirit of Crystal in a meaningful way. It's just there. It's padding.

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"All-in-one"? The Battle Tree is just the Battle Tower. That's it. You're basically complaining that there is extra optional post-game content in Emerald, Platinum, and HGSS.

N. Tyranno said:

Removing Nate and Hilda should not be encouraged or celebrated

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The fact that you forgot Rosa suggests otherwise. :P

N. Tyranno said:

Removing Nate and Hilda should not be encouraged or celebrated

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I don't see how a possible remake of both of them at once would work otherwise. Unless they pull something out of left field like playing as multiple characters at once out of nowhere

Fanbase fragility, the thread

I've played less and less of each entry, even if thinking skipping acouple gens is a good enough break. Don't think I made it even 2 gyms into B/W. Played 3 hours of Moon to know I never need to play it again.

I feel like just adding new Pokemon is considered enough for this franchise to keep going, but I remember the interactions and the world in Gold and Silver being a step up is what made that game last with me. It was the scale of it, the added functionality, the day/night cycle, the train that would take you between regions... these were exciting new ideas once.

Amiibola said:

Fanbase fragility, the thread

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Driveby, the post.

Weiss said:

The game looked more expansive and difficult than it actually was because you were a kid.

Turn off the EXP share and SuMo has both the toughest gameplay in the series and the darkest story if you're into that.

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I don't like the idea that removing grinding should make the game easier.

Played red/blue as a kid and loved it. It's been boring as fuuuuuuuck ever since.

Kokonoe said:

Shame Black and White killed the series.

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Gen 5 was just weird. None of the pokemon had mass appeal.

Toxi said:

"All-in-one"? The Battle Tree is just the Battle Tower. That's it. You're basically complaining that there is extra optional post-game content in Emerald, Platinum, and HGSS.

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It's more that I don't think any of the content that the Battle Frontier adds is meaningful or well executed in any way. I don't consider things like a half-baked roguelike and a worse version of the rental pokemon from the Stadium series to be a worthwhile use of the developers' time.

The fact that you don't remember Rosa suggests otherwise. :P

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I'll admit you got me, but it's also late. My issue is more that everyone went on about how Generations was supposed to be this "more true to the source material" animated production and yet they celebrate such a huge change to it that only exists to please a vocal minority.

David___ said:

I don't see how a possible remake of both of them at once would work otherwise. Unless they pull something out of left field like playing as multiple characters at once out of nowhere

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That is a fair point.

I have to agree completely. I loved Platinum and Soulsilver a ton when I was younger, but I could never really get into anything afterwards. I would be so very happy if the games embraced the more open regions that I experienced then, and at least had an option for harder difficulty with encounters designed for it. The combat system has a ton of depth from what I've seen, but what I remember playing of the games never took advantage of it, at all. Beating the Elite 4 with just my starter is no fun.

Amiibola said:

Fanbase fragility, the thread

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Fanboy fragility, the post.

For some reason you always find the need to excessively defend Nintendo or the games on Nintendo consoles. Stop being so sensitive. If you want to respond to the OP do it in a constructive manner not as a drive by shit post.

Wololo said:

Gen 5 was just weird. None of the pokemon had mass appeal.

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Listen, let's not say things about Snivy we can't take back, alright?

I play this series too intermittently to offer a valuable perspective but just wanted to say thanks for a well written OP that focuses on your experiences with the games in an interesting way, without trying to come up with a bunch of shallow solutions, I got a lot out of that critique.

N. Tyranno said:

It's more that I don't think any of the content that the Battle Frontier adds is meaningful or well executed in any way. I don't consider things like a half-baked roguelike and a worse version of the rental pokemon from the Stadium series to be a worthwhile use of the developers' time.

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Okay, what is a good use of the developer's time?

Long dialogue-driven cutscenes to give "personality" to half-baked characters?

Shallow minigames that use completely different gameplay systems from the core game?

Tacked-on shiny overpowered battle mechanics designed to steamroll an opponent that are abandoned after a generation?

Wololo said:

Gen 5 was just weird. None of the pokemon had mass appeal.

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Hydreigon, Haxorus, Volcarona, Zoroark, Braviary, Genesect, Zekrom/Reshiram/Kyurem. Just to name a few.

Pokemom took an easy but still good rpg franchise and made it even easier and stripped away all player agency.
They should really focus on giving players options in the next game after the super handholdy game that is Lets Go.

OP, thanks for the suggestion. I'll watch that Let's Play tomorrow in between EVO matches.

Toxi said:

Okay, what is a good use of the developer's time?

Long dialogue-driven cutscenes to give "personality" to half-baked characters?

Shallow minigames that use completely different gameplay systems from the core game?

Tacked-on shiny overpowered battle mechanics designed to steamroll an opponent that are abandoned after a generation?

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I'll say what I think isn't: modes that compound frustration upon frustration that stack randomness on top of the already stilted an uneven difficulty of the battle facilities.

Because that's what I want to do in between struggling with CPU opponents, dealing with random status effects or wandering around in the dark.

Kokonoe said:

Shame Black and White killed the series.

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For a split second I saw this as "Shane Black killed the series" and thought to myself what in the hell have I missed

N. Tyranno said:

I'll say what I think isn't: modes that compound frustration upon frustration that stack randomness on top of the already stilted an uneven difficulty of the battle facilities.

Because that's what I want to do in between struggling with CPU opponents, dealing with random status effects or wandering around in the dark.

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Then don't. The games never force you to beat the Battle Frontier in the same way they force all those other things upon you.

I sure as hell didn't play through the Battle Frontier as a kid. But the Battle Frontier didn't hinder my young self's enjoyment of the games with its presence, and gave me another reason to go back to those games when I got older. The same can't be said for the extraneous bullshit in modern Pokemon games.

petethepanda said:

For a split second I saw this as "Shane Black killed the series" and thought to myself what in the hell have I missed

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That would be a hell of a twist.

petethepanda said:

For a split second I saw this as "Shane Black killed the series" and thought to myself what in the hell have I missed

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Well, it's definitely a more sensible statement than saying Black and White killed the series.

*Brandon plays Pokemon

I absolutely agree with the premise of the thread, though. The series has regressed in so many ways over the last few gens.

I think I'm done with any new pokemon games, the direction of the new games is just not for me, I will happily play Emerald till I die, that game is still a masterpiece

I'll never agree with threads like this lol. Sun and Moon are better than Black and White, Ultra Sun and Moon are the hardest games in the series, and Let's Go being called a "breath of fresh air" sounds completely crazy to me considering it's the thousandth 1:1 retread of Gen 1. I can't wait for Gen 8 because I am fairly confident it'll be the culmination of factors that will finally please the more vocal part of the fanbase.

Platinum is indeed a masterpiece though.

Sun/Moon were refreshing after gen 5 being meh and gen 6 being bad. If this thread was made before they came out, then I'd agree. Moon is my favourite game in the franchise tied with Platinum, so it's not like I didn't like the old school pokemons.

Aleh said:

I'll never agree with threads like this lol. Sun and Moon are better than Black and White, Ultra Sun and Moon are the hardest games in the series, and Let's Go being called a "breath of fresh air" sounds completely crazy to me considering it's the thousandth 1:1 retread of Gen 1. I can't wait for Gen 8 because I am fairly confident it'll be the culmination of factors that will finally please the more vocal part of the fanbase.

Platinum is indeed a masterpiece though.

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Yeesh at the bolded...