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TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,137
Long Island
Close to Albany NY. There are enough doctors around, there is a huge hospital in the area, and a huge nursing school. People book them for any minor thing though.
Ok I'm on Long Island, I have 10+ huge hospitals plus probably thousands of specialty offices for things from dermatology to radiologist. if one place is booked for months I can call 20 other places within 15 minutes of me and get a earlier appointment. So I think location means a lot in these scenarios.
 
Oct 27, 2017
977
Once again I am reminded of the fact that the US does not have universal healthcare and how that is absolutely unbelievable and backwards in this day and age.
 

nemoral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,081
Fiddler's Green
For 49 cents the post office will deliver my message anywhere in the country with high reliability. I wish our medical system were that cheap and effective.
 

Nassudan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,349
I never had an issue with the USPS, then again I've only used them in medium/large sized towns. Not metropolis.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
It's a terrible analogy. Universal healthcare could still mean doctors are private entities, unlike the post office. Public funding and public ownership are different.
USPS is not a traditionally government funded program; they get their revenue through operations. And they would be doing fine if it weren't for republicans constantly trying to push them out of business. Like in 2006 where they decided that USPS had to pre-fund retirement health packages. Something we would never expect other businesses to do:

Then there is the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (PAEA), which some have taken to calling "the most insane law" ever passed by Congress. The law requires the Postal Service, which receives no taxpayer subsidies, to prefund its retirees' health benefits up to the year 2056. This is a $5 billion per year cost; it is a requirement that no other entity, private or public, has to make.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/arti...s-not-amazon-messed-up-the-u-s-postal-service
 
Last edited:

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
People in Canada wait weeks for an MRI, CT Scan, or ultrasound.

I got my MRI the next day after my doctor requested it.

Average Canadian wait time for MRI is 10.8 weeks
. I can't imagine spending 2+ months not knowing if you have a brain tumor or whatnot.

Think about the reasons behind this. You are able to get a next day MRI because 10 weeks worth of poor people cannot afford it. You are scared about having to spend 2 months without knowing what is wrong? Well, all those people that would have been ahead of you in the Canada but cannot go in the US will have to live the rest of their lives without knowing what is wrong.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I mean...that's why there's a triage nurse. Triage has been a thing since atleast Napoleonic times. When I had debilitating vertigo I went right in with zero wait. When I had a broken finger, I waited hours. That all makes sense to me
At what point did triage determine that 11 weeks was an acceptable wait time for an MRI? Why not just set up more machines and more centers to do imaging?

And the OP themself posted that they had to wait weeks to see their doctor, under the US health care system. Kind of sounds like the worst of both worlds, right?
"The doctor was not available to see me at exactly the time of my appointment" is a complaint that is pretty much never going to be solved by the US or Canadian system. OP never said he had to wait weeks, just that it was scheduled weeks in advance -- which really makes no difference when the office is running behind on the particular day of your appointment.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,946
I'd love to have a reliable, nationwide provider like USPS to provide a baseline of care above which private firms could specialize in other areas or provide customers with extra services. I've never had any bad experiences and it works fine for what it is. If you need special care then there are private companies to pick up the slack.
 

clyde_

Member
Nov 2, 2017
198
I'm all for universal healthcare, but I think it would also make a lot of sense to make medical school completely free.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Give him a break. There is an insane amount of misinformation in the US about single payer system, mostly brought on by Fox News and radio/right wing media.

I agree. I have lived in countries with universal healthcare and in the USA. Most american are so misinformed about how the rest of the world works. Even non-conservatives are so brainwashed by the constant talking points made by the right that they believe being a bit to the left of them is supporting progressive healthcare
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,116
Once again I am reminded of the fact that the US does not have universal healthcare and how that is absolutely unbelievable and backwards in this day and age.

Yup. I'm reminded about how well my great uncle was treated by the NHS in Wales when he had cancer. If he were in the states, he never would have been able to afford it. I wish we had it in the US.
 

Creamie

Avenger
Nov 14, 2017
543
"The doctor was not available to see me at exactly the time of my appointment" is a complaint that is pretty much never going to be solved by the US or Canadian system. OP never said he had to wait weeks, just that it was scheduled weeks in advance -- which really makes no difference when the office is running behind on the particular day of your appointment.

Not trying to speak for the op, but I am sure if the doctor said they could see the OP within a few days, the OP would have went to the doctor then. I know if my arm was injured and the doctor said I can see you tomorrow or two months from now, I would pick tomorrow. I don't think the OP had that choice.

So you are right, having to wait a few weeks to see a doctor and having to schedule an appointment a few weeks ahead are essentially the same thing. Except that one is completely paid for by taxes and the other you really have no idea how much you will have to pay.

The 45 minutes wait in the doctor's office, who really cares about that?
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
I'm all for universal healthcare, but I think it would also make a lot of sense to make medical school completely free.

Its never going to be "free". You have to support the hospital, the academic doctors, the research staff, nurses, Labs, insurance, etc.... You also cannot really subsidize medschool heavily if people turn around and start making $200k after graduating.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
When I feel sick, I go to the doctor without making an appointment. And that is just with a regular doctor without going to an Urgent Care facility.
Well, that is of course only during business hours. At night, I would have to call the doctor on call and maybe wait an hour.
It is the true horror of universal healthcare.
 

nopressure

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,414
At what point did triage determine that 11 weeks was an acceptable wait time for an MRI? Why not just set up more machines and more centers to do imaging?

11 weeks is an acceptable wait time for lots of conditions. Public healthcare systems prioritise urgent cases for sooner appointments, instead of rich people.

You can also use CT scans instead of MRIs for absolutely urgent situations.
 

Phrozenflame500

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,132
People in Canada wait weeks for an MRI, CT Scan, or ultrasound.

I got my MRI the next day after my doctor requested it.

Average Canadian wait time for MRI is 10.8 weeks
. I can't imagine spending 2+ months not knowing if you have a brain tumor or whatnot.

This is actually a great example of how the market for healthcare is pretty bad at rationing care and promotes healthcare overuse among the wealthy and healthcare underuse among the poor. The Canadian system is not perfect and I don't personally believe the US should emulate it compared to more superior European systems but this isn't actually the ringing endorsement of the current system that you think it is.
 

Tugatrix

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
3,263
Are same day appointments not a problem in countries with universal healthcare?

I was under the impression it'd be worse, if anything.

Emergency Care is immediate but you might wait a few hours if it's not really that serious(like a flu), as for non emergencies you have to wait, for you family doctor a couple of days and for specialties a few weeks or a few months depending on the problem.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,067
Are same day appointments not a problem in countries with universal healthcare?
Depends on the country. I pretty much never had to wait to see my doctor in Germany, and most specialist appointments were within a week, even getting same day MRI once.
In UK I'm lucky to get a GP appointment in 2 weeks, and even private appointments are rarely faster than 5 days. I don't know how bad NH specialists get...
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,542
This thread is really making me appreciate my doctor. If it's something serious, he'll squeeze me in at the end of the day.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Think about the reasons behind this. You are able to get a next day MRI because 10 weeks worth of poor people cannot afford it.
Or it could just be that the Canadian system is underfunded and bureaucrats have decided that current wait times are within acceptable limits.

Not trying to speak for the op, but I am sure if the doctor said they could see the OP within a few days, the OP would have went to the doctor then.
I would probably draw a distinction between "The doctor I wanted to see was not available for weeks" and "This procedure is unavailable anywhere for weeks." Ultimately my point was just that having to wait 45 minutes past your appointment time is pretty small potatoes. Sitting around in a waiting room is frustrating, but you can't expect a doctor's office to behave like a Chick-Fil-A.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,283
Anyway I'm American and my mother is American and when she was diagnosed with leukemia the earliest she could get an appointment with an oncologist was a month and a half later. This whole "B-b-but socialized medicine has wait times" bullshit is super dumb, because that is literally already a thing in the United States.
 

KtotheRoc

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
56,670
This is an argument made in bad faith, and should not be given the time of day. People die because they lack health insurance, and if it were up to the GOP, the government wouldn't do anything to help people who are sick.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Or it could just be that the Canadian system is underfunded and bureaucrats have decided that current wait times are within acceptable limits.


I would probably draw a distinction between "The doctor I wanted to see was not available for weeks" and "This procedure is unavailable anywhere for weeks." Ultimately my point was just that having to wait 45 minutes past your appointment time is pretty small potatoes. Sitting around in a waiting room is frustrating, but you can't expect a doctor's office to behave like a Chick-Fil-A.

You started by quoting data from a libertarian think thank. That is such a poisonous starting point that anything else you say based on that data can be easily ignored.
 

Creamie

Avenger
Nov 14, 2017
543
I would probably draw a distinction between "The doctor I wanted to see was not available for weeks" and "This procedure is unavailable anywhere for weeks." Ultimately my point was just that having to wait 45 minutes past your appointment time is pretty small potatoes. Sitting around in a waiting room is frustrating, but you can't expect a doctor's office to behave like a Chick-Fil-A.

Like I said in my post that you conveniently left out of the quote. Nobody gives a flying fuck about having to wait 45 minutes at a doctor office.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Give him a break. There is an insane amount of misinformation in the US about single payer system, mostly brought on by Fox News and radio/right wing media.
Is CTV considered right-wing media? It's a Canadian TV network that is reporting wait times are at their longest in decades.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,542
This is an argument made in bad faith, and should not be given the time of day. People die because they lack health insurance, and if it were up to the GOP, the government wouldn't do anything to help people who are sick.


Yeah a lot of these opinions against UHC boils down to "we might have to wait almost as long as the poors do already!" Several of the UHC options allow for the so-called "cadillac" insurance plans. You pay more for preferential treatment.
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
Are same day appointments not a problem in countries with universal healthcare?

I was under the impression it'd be worse, if anything.

If it's a dire emergency I can go to the hospital
If it's for a GP, well first I don't know why I would not have made an appointment, but my GP is usually quite full and if I went, the receptionist would probably say they can try to squeeze me in but it would be a long wait.
Alternatively I can go to a walk in clinic depending on what the issue was and be seen.
 

Creamie

Avenger
Nov 14, 2017
543
Is CTV considered right-wing media? It's a Canadian TV network that is reporting wait times are at their longest in decades.

Wasn't talking about CTV (I honestly don't know much about it), but I was more speaking about how much misinformation there is basically saying you could be bleeding out from a gunshot wound and have to wait 3 months to get it looked at.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
Are same day appointments not a problem in countries with universal healthcare?

I was under the impression it'd be worse, if anything.
A couple of years ago, I called up the NHS support line - 111, for non emergencies; the emergency number is 999 - complaining about some minor - well, severe enough for me to ring a doctor - abdominal pains at about nine PM, and I had an appointment literally within the hour. (Thankfully, it turned out it was just trapped gas.)

Oh, and we still get housecalls for some stuff.

The NHS is not perfect - 'specially with how the Tories have been systemically undermining it every chance they get - but I wouldn't trade it for anything--and the US healthcare system is straight up the stuff of nightmares for anyone over here who's heard enough about it.
 

nopressure

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,414
Or it could just be that the Canadian system is underfunded and bureaucrats have decided that current wait times are within acceptable limits.

As far as I'm aware, America is consistently below nearly every other western county for standard of care provided.

Access to a MRI scan is a superficial assessment of a country's healthcare system. It's not an essential or care limitiing investigation for the majority of cases and America likely over investigates with MRI scans anyway.
 

Azuran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,563
Ah great, another thread from Americans who have no idea how universal health care works but still believe they know what they're talking about.

Newsflash, you're not getting better "service" because you're paying out of your ass to corporations. What is better service and doctors anyways? Are they gonna operate on your with golden tools while wearing a crown?

Well it makes me wonder if Canadians have clinics. Not every emergency is a "go to the ER emergency".

Of course we have clinics and they're everywhere. That's where the ER people angrily tell you to go next time if you're not dying so you stop clogging up emergencies for people who actually need them.
 

Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
Are same day appointments not a problem in countries with universal healthcare?

I was under the impression it'd be worse, if anything.

My Dr. You basically have to schedule it months in advance (and then sit in the waiting room for two hours past the appointment time) in the us so my only other option is the ER/urgent care.

Welcome to why I go to the Dr once every 4ish years I probably have mega cancer or something.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
A couple of years ago, I called up the NHS support line complaining about some minor stomach pains at about nine PM, and I had an appointment literally within the hour. (Thankfully, it turned out it was just trapped gas.)

Oh, and we still get housecalls for some stuff.

The NHS is not perfect - 'specially with how the Tories have been systemically undermining it every chance they get - but I wouldn't trade it for anything--and the US healthcare system is straight up the stuff of nightmares for anyone over here who's heard enough about it.
Yeah it seems like right-wingers have a problem with successful government programs and constantly do their best to undermine their ability to function. It's almost like they make their arguments in bad faith.
 

Deleted member 33887

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,109
There's a free dental clinic near where I work today. The line looked like it was at least a thousand people long. That's perhaps 10% of the county's population that otherwise doesn't have the means to get dental care. Perhaps as high as 25% because it is a two day affair. Kinda messed up that we have to rely on a medical mission to do what should already be done. It also visits sporadically, so these people are screwed if it doesn't visit.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,190
Are same day appointments not a problem in countries with universal healthcare?

I was under the impression it'd be worse, if anything.
No, not a problem in The Netherlands. If I need emergency care I can go the Emergency Room and depending on the urgency of my sickness or injury and those of the others there I can either be helped immediately, quickly, or at worst within an hour or two at the most. I also have a 24/7 option to go to the GP or get a house call if needed. There is always the option of calling my own GP and getting a same day appointment or I can go to a shared GP's office that is manned during non-office hours, if my sickness or injury isn't as serious as the ER.

And of course, there is no need to worry about costs. Even if I was overreacting and I am actually fine.
 

Plinko

Member
Oct 28, 2017
18,576
Republicans trying to villainize the post office is always hilarious to me. Their rural voters desperately need the post office.
 

Mindlog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
684
Yeah, but Americans generally pay more for healthcare so we have that going for us.
 

Phrozenflame500

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
2,132
Is CTV considered right-wing media? It's a Canadian TV network that is reporting wait times are at their longest in decades.

The Fraser Institute, the source the CTV article cites, is pretty (in?)famously right-wing. That being said, long wait times is generally considered a problem even among non-partisan media even if the cited figure might be an exaggeration.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,478
Well it makes me wonder if Canadians have clinics. Not every emergency is a "go to the ER emergency".
Walk-ins are all over the place, at least here in Southern Ontario.

That said, if I call my family doctor's office early enough she almost always gets me in same-day. Otherwise the next day, usually.

Also, let me tell y'all something about prioritization: last fall I couldn't pass anything and got super bloated and gassy. Painfully so. I went to the ER and for a week got more scans and blood tests and whatnot than I could count, and it turned out that my appendix had exploded. Within a few days of being there they took it out of me and I spent another couple weeks in the hospital in room with one single other bed. Got plenty of drugs and support from nurses 24/7 with issues from weakness. Eventually I left, and after almost a month in the hospital, do you know what my bill was?

$30 for buying cable tv access for the few days I was alone in the room because I was losing my mind from boredom. Mario + Rabbids can only go so far.

I was also two months away from losing my job and had no savings, so if I wasn't Canadian I would be absolutely fucked right now. My country's health system made me better in a timely way because it was an emergency and didn't bankrupt me while doing so. It's that simple.
 

clyde_

Member
Nov 2, 2017
198
Its never going to be "free". You have to support the hospital, the academic doctors, the research staff, nurses, Labs, insurance, etc.... You also cannot really subsidize medschool heavily if people turn around and start making $200k after graduating.

What I mean is that it shouldn't cost the person who goes to medical school any money.
I'm not an expert economist, but I suspect that subsidizing the education and qualification of doctors would lower the cost of them substantially overall, even when you put the cost of the subsidies into the equation.

Think about it like the military, why don't we charge soldiers tuition for getting training, weapons, travel, and housing? Instead we are paying them, it doesn't make any sense they should be paying the government.
 

lmcfigs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,091
Walk-ins are all over the place, at least here in Southern Ontario.

That said, if I call my family doctor's office early enough she almost always gets me in same-day. Otherwise the next day, usually.

Also, let me tell you something about prioritization: last fall I couldn't pass anything and got super bloated and gassy. Painfully so. I went to the ER and for a week got more scans and blood tests and whatnot than I could count, and it turned out that my appendix had exploded. Within a few days of being there they took it out of me and I spent another couple weeks in the hospital in room with one single other bed. Got plenty of drugs and support from nurses 24/7 with issues from weakness. Eventually I left, and after almost a month in the hospital, do you know what my bill was?

$30 for buying cable tv access for the few days I was alone in the room because I was losing my mind from boredom. Mario + Rabbids can only go so far.

I was also two months away from losing my job and had no savings, so if I wasn't Canadian I would be absolutely fucked right now. My country's health system made me better in a timely way because it was an emergency and didn't bankrupt me while doing so. It's that simple.
I totally believe you and support single payer. It's just I'm hearing conflicting stories about Canadians and being able to see a doctor on time. I want to think it's a conservative fantasy - but idk - just look at some posts in this thread.

I also want to add that my doctor is almost never available same day. If you have a problem you need looked at quickly; that usually means by the end of the week. From my experience, a private system doesn't mean your family doctor will drop everything to see you. idk why people are saying that like it's a real thing.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
Access to a MRI scan is a superficial assessment of a country's healthcare system. It's not an essential or care limitiing investigation for the majority of cases and America likely over investigates with MRI scans anyway.
Yes, to be clear, I'm not suggesting that an MRI/CT/ultrasound wait time is really a fair benchmark for the entire medical system.
 

anthro

Member
Oct 28, 2017
420
I'll always stan for the post office. They handle an immense amount of mail daily at a cheap cost while being hamstrung by republicans, and they pay reasonable wages with pensions and benefits to their employees. It's a good institution.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,478
I totally believe you and support single payer. It's just I'm hearing conflicting stories about Canadians and being able to see a doctor on time.
I think a lot of this from everyone (not just Canadians) is that we as people are bad at determining how serious our own issues are. Of course the doctors and nurses would be better about prioritizing treatment; as to seeing a family doctor, that's why you book checkups. If it's an immediate need for medical attention but not something that's torturous, that's what the walk-ins are for.

If we were all smarter about knowing where and when to go to take care of ourselves it would all work out cleanly. That's expecting a lot out of us collectively, though, I know.