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chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,457
Don't, don't. Don't don't don't, dododon't use it.

"This function I don't like is there and is purely optional and can completly ignored, yet, ME, I hate it because it is here ! #SAD !"
"My wife love Star Trek and told me she can learn Klingon. Yet she won't, but it ruins MY life because she CAN learn Klingon. Even if she won't. I hate it !"

Seriously...
Lol this post is so rad it hurts.

But yeah seriuosly, this post OP. Exercise some self control man, just don't use the thing you don't like.

"Man I'm so mad that cigarettes exist, I mean how can I be expected to not smoke them if they're around? They should be illegal to save me from myself!"
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
Unless requested by OP, I don't think they'll do that anymore since they were reminded that they weren't going to change titles to mock the OP.

Yeah this is the best approach, leave that childish nonsense back at the old place

On topic I feel for the OP. It should be something that can be toggled off in an options menu. A lot of people have the same issue with save states, they're too tempting to exploit

Fuck up a jump and die and have to replay 2 mins of level, then die again? Ah well, just make a save state and do the jump over and over till you make it

I would hate a rewind feature in most games as every time I die I would feel like I'm wasting progress on purpose by not using rewind, and if I use it I'd feel like I'm undermining the challenge, so the best option would be to let me turn it off before I start the game
 

Onilink

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,586
As some gentlelords here said, i'm one of the jerks that suggest more self control.
Overflying about the weird punishment for using the easy mode (what do you want, Reggie with a belt on his hand outside the door?), the problem is not clicking a dorsal button, in a not natural position. Said that, the sw is done that way, a patch will costs too much and the real problem is another. You can't really be angry at others about a temper problem, because this time is an option, another time is a bud that offer you tobacco, another time is a money limit in a Bank (i'm just saying examples).
Said that, Megaman offers 2 way to kill a boss: the Easy one, with the right power, and the hard one, with only the buster. We need an option to not use the powers, or not?
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
I wonder how many people here chastising the OP and saying he should show more self control have had to call their backlogs "game collections" because they have spent so much money on games the mere idea that they'll get around to them all someday is absurd
 

Onilink

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,586
I wonder how many people here chastising the OP and saying he should show more self control have had to call their backlogs "game collections" because they have spent so much money on games the mere idea that they'll get around to them all someday is absurd
And i'm one of them (much less than before, luckily), but who is the culprit? Me, or the shop? OP laments, people says "watch your temperament", other says "no, it's game fault". Put an option will resolve the issue of the OP with the game, not the problem.
 

Deleted member 16039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
793
2f7lno.jpg
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
And i'm one of them (much less than before, luckily), but who is the culprit? Me, or the shop? OP laments, people says "watch your temperament", other says "no, it's game fault". I

Gamers will often take the easiest way out, if a game is balanced badly and one weapon is objectively the best in the game most players will just use that and not bother to engage in the rest of the games systems

You could say they're ruining the game for themselves, but they're playing by the games own rules, so why shouldn't they? If they get less enjoyment out of the game because of this then it's the games fault for being poorly designed

You can't defend the game by saying, "yeah well, you shouldn't use that sword, you should use worse weapons and learn how to dodge offset and shield cancel and the game will be better"

A badly designed game is badly designed. The OG Mega Man games were not designed with rewind in mind, and so it breaks the game, just like it would break Dark Souls if that had a rewind

If it's mapped to your controls and activated by default then it's a part of the game. If Mario 1 was re-released and they added a double jump to make the game easier, and someone said the game was too easy because you have a double jump, I think it's a shoddy argument to just say "well just don't use it!"

Ideally rewind would have a toggle in the options, so those who want it can use it, and those, like the OP, who don't want it there, can switch it off
 

chrisypoo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,457
I wonder how many people here chastising the OP and saying he should show more self control have had to call their backlogs "game collections" because they have spent so much money on games the mere idea that they'll get around to them all someday is absurd
Uh huh, and yet this line of argument changes absolutely nothing. I am certainly guilty of buying more games than I will ever be able to play, but I also don't make any claims that it is something that is beyond my control, nor do I wish for any of the market places to make me unable to make these purchases in order to save me from my self, as it is my responsibility and I'm not one for putting blame for my actions on others. See the difference here?
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
Uh huh, and yet this line of argument changes absolutely nothing. I am certainly guilty of buying more games than I will ever be able to play, but I also don't make any claims that it is something that is beyond my control, nor do I wish for any of the market places to make me unable to make these purchases in order to save me from my self, as it is my responsibility and I'm not one for putting blame for my actions on others. See the difference here?

Yeah I knew I would touch a nerve by making that post

If a game is too easy and people want a hard mode in a game, that's fine, all the OP is asking for is a mode that doesn't let you use shortcuts

Lots of games have hard modes that restrict features/systems from easier modes, or have easier modes that add features and safety nets
 

Onilink

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,586
Gamers will often take the easiest way out, if a game is balanced badly and one weapon is objectively the best in the game most players will just use that and not bother to engage in the rest of the games systems

You could say they're ruining the game for themselves, but they're playing by the games own rules, so why shouldn't they? If they get less enjoyment out of the game because of this then it's the games fault for being poorly designed

You can't defend the game by saying, "yeah well, you shouldn't use that sword, you should use worse weapons and learn how to dodge offset and shield cancel and the game will be better"

A badly designed game is badly designed. The OG Mega Man games were not designed with rewind in mind, and so it breaks the game, just like it would break Dark Souls if that had a rewind

If it's mapped to your controls and activated by default then it's a part of the game. If Mario 1 was re-released and they added a double jump to make the game easier, and someone said the game was too easy because you have a double jump, I think it's a shoddy argument to just say "well just don't use it!"

Ideally rewind would have a toggle in the options, so those who want it can use it, and those, like the OP, who don't want it there, can switch it off

Yep. But we are talking about an optional feature, like, yes, the decision to use a more powerful sword against a boss, or read an advice in dark souls, or use a power against a boss in Megaman, or...

They are in game options, not bad game design. It's not the kaepora gaebora trolling with the A pressing.
And yes, the answer is "then don't use it". You have the choice to do it.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,072
You can disable it though. Its auto set to disabled. It doesnt automatically rewind for you when you die. Its not like autosaving. You have to press the button to enable it. And you actually have to press it every time you want the function enabled. Otherwise it is automatically set to disabled
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
Yep. But we are talking about an optional feature, like, yes, the decision to use a more powerful sword against a boss, or read an advice in dark souls, or use a power against a boss in Megaman, or...

They are in game options, not bad game design. It's not the kaepora gaebora trolling with the A pressing.
And yes, the answer is "then don't use it". You have the choice to do it.

Every non essential feature in a game is optional. Using healing items and revival items in Final Fantasy games is optional, but the game was designed taking them into consideration, they are a part of the design

You can't compare that to something added after the game was designed, like rewind. Rewind breaks the game in the same way that save states break the game

If the new Souls game comes out and a button that auto heals you no matter what, pretty much everyone would be annoyed that was in the game at all, because it breaks the game, it doesn't matter that its optional. Most people would be against games enabling cheats by default
 

LuckyLinus

Member
Jun 1, 2018
1,935
I like hard games, I like when they dont have difficultys or handicap modes. I dont use them when theyre there, but them being there takes away of the feeling of achievement when I finish the game. If Dark Souls had rewind I would hate it to no end. With Mega man I dont care. I dont want easier difficultys gone from those who enjoy them, but they remove from my personal experience.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Every non essential feature in a game is optional. Using healing items and revival items in Final Fantasy games is optional, but the game was designed taking them into consideration, they are a part of the design

You can't compare that to something added after the game was designed, like rewind. Rewind breaks the game in the same way that save states break the game

If the new Souls game comes out and a button that auto heals you no matter what, pretty much everyone would be annoyed that was in the game at all, because it breaks the game, it doesn't matter that its optional. Most people would be against games enabling cheats by default

None of those features break anything. They are quality of life additions to old games that were designed for completely different platforms and play sessions. Not to mention for different people.

Even OP himself admits that he appreciates the rewind in MM1 because it's "difficult enough" for him. Alas a completely subjective definition for what is reasonable.
 

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
It's always easy to tell someone to not use a feature in a game. I mean, the discussion about Rewind in this thread is the exact same as the one centered around the game breaking Experience Share in recent Pokemon games.

But if there's a feature that's a fundamental part of a game, and there's no penalty for using it, then it's clearly a critical feature of the game that's meant to be used. Deciding to not use such a feature is giving yourself a self-imposed challenge, which is not the kind of thing most people do when playing games. Sure you could play Mario without getting mushrooms and powerups, or Doom with only the chainsaw and/or pistol, but for most people casually playing through a game, why would they do that?

If Rewind and Experience Share are really not to be used unless you need extra help with the game, then I think the developers of these games need to think about their messaging (e.g. how they're communicating these features to the player).

Look at Celeste's Assist Mode. It allows you to "break" the game by giving yourself unlimited health, making the game slower, and whatnot, only if you start the game in the special Assist Mode. But it's made very clear that these are self-imposed enhancements for playing the game not as intended, not self-imposed challenges. Because of how these features are communicated to the player, nobody is going to go out of their way to play Assist Mode unless they need help with the game.

Also, look at how Nintendo's allows you to skip entire levels if you suck at them, or provides game breaking powerups or enhancements to allow for easier play. Not only are these clearly shortcuts for bypassing things you can't beat, but they also punish the player. Splatoon 2 Octo Expansion won't give you a Mem Cake for beating a level, MK8D's driving assist won't allow you to get the best and fastest speed boost, and DKC Returns won't just give you those collectible Kong letters and puzzle pieces.

Basically, it's easy to tell someone to not use a feature, creating a self-imposed challenge to make a game harder, but it's not easy for most people to do. The game itself should ideally change its messaging to make the feature a self-imposed enhancement, or to give incentives for not using the feature. Otherwise, "game breaking" features like Experience Share and Rewind are on the same level as fundamental parts of a game like mushrooms and Toad houses in Mario, or RPGs and grenades in shooters.
This is an excellent post. Thank you.

Otherwise, for the next Dark Souls let's just put a rewind feature on the L3 button. The fans will be super happy, I'm sure. Because, options are good, right?
 

Kizuna

Member
Oct 27, 2017
550
I would be totally fine with an option to opt out of rewinding, but, dear God, no special achievements/badges/other distinctions for playing that way.

Otherwise, from experience, a certain small but very vocal demographic wouldn' t ever shut up about playing the game "the intended way" and others being casuals who need to git gud.
 

Onilink

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,586
Every non essential feature in a game is optional. Using healing items and revival items in Final Fantasy games is optional, but the game was designed taking them into consideration, they are a part of the design

You can't compare that to something added after the game was designed, like rewind. Rewind breaks the game in the same way that save states break the game

If the new Souls game comes out and a button that auto heals you no matter what, pretty much everyone would be annoyed that was in the game at all, because it breaks the game, it doesn't matter that its optional. Most people would be against games enabling cheats by default

You are talking by hyperboles now and i'll say "yes, if they are going to break the game, there is no counter arguments", like your example in dark souls.
In this case , as the name implies, is an infinite try mode (and you have to active It every time), not a supersajan mode, and on top of that, the button is a dorsal one (Megaman only use 2 button for gameplay).
Not a game breaker
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
You are talking by hyperboles now and i'll say "yes, if they are going to break the game, there is no counter arguments", like your example in dark souls.
In this case , as the name implies, is an infinite try mode (and you have to active It every time), not a supersajan mode, and on top of that, the button is a dorsal one (Megaman only use 2 button for gameplay).
Not a game breaker

The post PsychoHydro has quoted above me makes my points far more eloquently than I'm able to, so I'll refer you to that post

Literally no differences in Dark Souls and decades old platformers.

They're both difficult video games that would be much easier/broken if they had a rewind feature, not sure what your point is

Edit: I mean, the same would also apply to 90s Shmups and the new God of War
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,853
I would be totally fine with an option to opt out of rewinding, but, dear God, no special achievements/badges/other distinctions for playing that way.

Otherwise, from experience, a certain small but very vocal demographic wouldn' t ever shut up about playing the game "the intended way" and others being casuals who need to git gud.

Well, technically the Mega Man Collection actually already has this. Challenge mode has no difficulty select and in order to get all the trophies/achievements in the game you have to get gold ranks on 50/54 challenges. You can't rewind in the challenges, can't die in most of them (else you won't get gold). Personally I loved the mode just because it added a new twist on games I'd played many times before.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
They're both difficult video games that would be much easier/broken if they had a rewind feature, not sure what your point is

Dark Souls is a modern video game. It would be completely different if developed in the 80's. If it would be remade 20 years from now, some alterations would be most likely added.
 

Onilink

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,586
The post PsychoHydro has quoted above me makes my points far more eloquently than I'm able to, so I'll refer you to that post



They're both difficult video games that would be much easier/broken if they had a rewind feature, not sure what your point is

Edit: I mean, the same would also apply to 90s Shmups and the new God of War

Yes, and i'm with you if the rewind feature breaks the game. You don't have a level resolved, it's like a savestate on emulator, it give you a chance to learn quickly the pattern, but at the end you have to beat the game by yourself. So all the virtual console games are broken adding the savestate?
 

LuckyLinus

Member
Jun 1, 2018
1,935
Yes, and i'm with you if the rewind feature breaks the game. You don't have a level resolved, it's like a savestate on emulator, it give you a chance to learn quickly the pattern, but at the end you have to beat the game by yourself. So all the virtual console games are broken adding the savestate?
Yeah it breaks the games
 

oni-link

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Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
Dark Souls is a modern video game. It would be completely different if developed in the 80's. If it would be remade 20 years from now, some alterations would be most likely added.

A rewind would still undermine the original design, that would be true now, in 10 years time, and again in 50 years time

If in 20 years from now there is an infinite Estus mode enabled by default, or a rewind mode, I would also argue that should be something you need to toggle on in a menu setting
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
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Oct 25, 2017
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UK
Yes, and i'm with you if the rewind feature breaks the game. You don't have a level resolved, it's like a savestate on emulator, it give you a chance to learn quickly the pattern, but at the end you have to beat the game by yourself. So all the virtual console games are broken adding the savestate?

I have actually beaten MM2, and I did use save states, mostly before bosses, but yeah because of that I don't feel like I can say I have fully experienced the game, because I technically cheated

I don't think there is anything wrong with using save states, or with using rewind, or even with cheating (in SP games) I just don't think they should be enabled by default
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
A rewind would still undermine the original design, that would be true now, in 10 years time, and again in 50 years time

If in 20 years from now there is an infinite Estus mode enabled by default, or a rewind mode, I would also argue that should be something you need to toggle on in a menu setting

It wouldn't be the same game yes, but whether it's an improvement or "undermining" depends on the player. And like you said save states are very nice in retro game collections/virtual console, I would have no patience in learning all the trial and error sections today. Those games were designed in times when players had fewer games and 100x more time to dedicate per game.
 

Kizuna

Member
Oct 27, 2017
550
Well, technically the Mega Man Collection actually already has this. Challenge mode has no difficulty select and in order to get all the trophies/achievements in the game you have to get gold ranks on 50/54 challenges. You can't rewind in the challenges, can't die in most of them (else you won't get gold). Personally I loved the mode just because it added a new twist on games I'd played many times before.
I had some good fun with the challenges on the PS4 and feel like that's definitely the way to go about providing a challenge and a place to compete for more involved players.
The main campaigns, however, should provide the experience with assists as the default one, otherwise a lot of players would just drop the game instead of swallowing their pride and enabling functions that make the games easier to complete.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
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Oct 25, 2017
16,002
UK
It wouldn't be the same game yes, but whether it's an improvement or "undermining" depends on the player. And like you said save states are very nice in retro game collections/virtual console, I would have no patience in learning all the trial and error sections today. Those games were designed in times when players had fewer games and 100x more time to dedicate per game.

Yeah, and that's just it, there is nothing wrong with giving the player choice, so why not add all those extra features to the game in an options menu so each player can add extra features to the original game to their preference?

Why do we need to enable all these extra features by default?

Currently this system pleases you and annoys the OP, so why not have them in an options menu, then OP is happy and 3 seconds after you have opened an options menu you're happy

It's a system that benefits everyone, like with Celeste and it's assist mode

Having Celeste with assist mode turned on by default and having it unable to be switched off would be worse than how it works now
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I have nothing against putting the features behind a menu, but I understand why they are on by default.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,933
Currently this system pleases you and annoys the OP, so why not have them in an options menu, then OP is happy and 3 seconds after you have opened an options menu you're happy
Except the OP seems to want to go one step further and actively punish people for using rewind, locking them out of the ending and the like.
 

Yam's

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,027
Wish the ps4 version had that feature cause my nephews find these games way too hard.
 

shadowman16

Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,853
I had some good fun with the challenges on the PS4 and feel like that's definitely the way to go about providing a challenge and a place to compete for more involved players.
The main campaigns, however, should provide the experience with assists as the default one, otherwise a lot of players would just drop the game instead of swallowing their pride and enabling functions that make the games easier to complete.

I loved the challenge mode (loving X's dual boss fights as well, those are a great new twist on stuff) but I agree, the rewind features aren't hurting me being there. I'd rather more people get into the series and enjoy it, and then have Capcom make stuff like Mega Man 11 with 4 difficulty modes which cater to different audiences.
 

60fps

Banned
Dec 18, 2017
3,492
It wouldn't be the same game yes, but whether it's an improvement or "undermining" depends on the player. And like you said save states are very nice in retro game collections/virtual console, I would have no patience in learning all the trial and error sections today. Those games were designed in times when players had fewer games and 100x more time to dedicate per game.
These are the exact reasons why I can barely get into Dark Souls.

I would also advocate an easy mode for Dark Souls.
 

Pimienta

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,836
Perhaps some people should read about self-control and why is difficult for some? "Don't use it" posts are unhelpful.
 

fhqwhgads

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,534
It seems you don't really hate gatekeeping at all. Who cares that a collection of older games gets a rewind function.
I do hate Gatekeeping, you won't see me getting mad at people who suggest Dark Souls get an easy mode. I just feel like when it comes to making games more accessible, rewinds and safestates aren't the correct approach.
 

unicornKnight

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,161
Athens, Greece
I know this is not much related and I get OPs request - he should be able to completely disable the feature - but I wish rewind was a thing in all classic re-releases. There are many games I'd play if they had this feature.
 

the7samurai

Member
Oct 30, 2017
443
It definitely does change the game to have this feature in there. As someone who never played much of Mega Man growing up, I used this feature a lot. It made Mega Man 3 go from something that is supposed to be very difficult to being very easy.

Of course there is the option to not use it. But since I'm not trying to replicate some previous playthrough I used the features the developers put into the game. Asking me not to use that button is like asking me not the get powerups or use other obvious gameplay features. This changes the game incredibly.

And to be clear, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. I wouldn't have beat the game without it. It's the developers choice but it does effect how the game is played. Giving options is great but the OP is correct that it effects the experience when it is baked into the game.
 

the7samurai

Member
Oct 30, 2017
443
Gamers will often take the easiest way out, if a game is balanced badly and one weapon is objectively the best in the game most players will just use that and not bother to engage in the rest of the games systems

You could say they're ruining the game for themselves, but they're playing by the games own rules, so why shouldn't they? If they get less enjoyment out of the game because of this then it's the games fault for being poorly designed

You can't defend the game by saying, "yeah well, you shouldn't use that sword, you should use worse weapons and learn how to dodge offset and shield cancel and the game will be better"

A badly designed game is badly designed. The OG Mega Man games were not designed with rewind in mind, and so it breaks the game, just like it would break Dark Souls if that had a rewind

If it's mapped to your controls and activated by default then it's a part of the game. If Mario 1 was re-released and they added a double jump to make the game easier, and someone said the game was too easy because you have a double jump, I think it's a shoddy argument to just say "well just don't use it!"

Ideally rewind would have a toggle in the options, so those who want it can use it, and those, like the OP, who don't want it there, can switch it off
This is exactly correct.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,501
I know this is not much related and I get OPs request - he should be able to completely disable the feature - but I wish rewind was a thing in all classic re-releases. There are many games I'd play if they had this feature.

Yeah, the only reason I enjoyed the vast majority of Rare's Spectrum and NES-era output in Rare Replay is because of rewind. I shudder to imagine trying to beat a level like Clinger Winger legitimately.
 

Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
This is a cheap lazy feature. It should be a cheat option with at least a feigned downside to it.