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Is there such thing as an objectively good or bad game?

  • Yes

    Votes: 192 56.8%
  • No

    Votes: 146 43.2%

  • Total voters
    338

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,883
Finland
While even professional reviews are subjective, I have to go with yes. Since games like Slaughtering Grounds and Life of the Black Tiger exists.

Also to the art argument, I really don't think there's anyone in this world who could consider my drawings to be good they are just objectively bad.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,209
Singapore
A game can be objectively bad if it's, like, Nazi propaganda or something. Otherwise, not really.
This is wrong because Nazi propaganda being bad is subject to the individual. To a Nazi, it obviously wouldn't be bad, but to a normal non-Nazi person who isn't racist, the Nazi is bad and his opinion on Nazi propaganda doesn't matter. This is important to understand because we need to acknowledge that something doesn't have to be objective to be justified. Things like racism and Nazism are bad because we as people in society have decided to agree that they are bad because of their negative impact on our quality of life based on our empathy for each other. Not because nature has some ironclad rule that says it is bad. Accepting that objectivity doesn't exist in moral arguments and embracing them anyway is what makes the choice moral, and what makes us better people. It is bad not because it simply is, but because we thought about it, reflected about it, and decided for ourselves that it is bad.

So remember, when someone says that racism is "just an opinion", technically they are correct, but because we as human beings operate on a social rules and moral compasses, racism being bad should be the RIGHT opinion.
 

valeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
454
Yes. You can still derive enjoyment from a bad game, but because it's bad and does bad things/breaks in weird ways.

I'd hazard no. Games are an art form and good art itself is subjective and in the eye of the beholder, and that goes for anything from the visual art to writing to performances...

I suppose if a game was fundamentally broken and malfunctioning then yes, you could say it's 'bad'.


Games are different to other art-forms because they are interactive, and if the process of interacting with the game is broken, then it is objectively bad because it doesn't fulfill the basic criteria of being a game.
 

AppleMIX

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,702
A game that doesn't run is objectively a bad game.

Other than that it is completely subjective.
 

Deleted member 1656

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,474
So-Cal
Games are different to other art-forms because they are interactive, and if the process of interacting with the game is broken, then it is objectively bad because it doesn't fulfill the basic criteria of being a game.
What if a game intentionally breaks your ability to interact with it?

The Consuming Shadow reverses your controls and distorts your screen when your character's Sanity Meter is too low.

You lose control of soldiers in XCOM who become Panicked at them or their squadmates being wounded or dying.

In Metro 2033 your controls become slower and sloppier when you are carrying a child on your back for a level.

Nier: Automata disables your characters' controls when they are extremely damaged or hacked.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,165
Manhattan, New York
Exactly. Objectivity depends on what you are measuring something according to.

Right. It isn't enough to say "this game is objectively bad". You have to explain what measure or criteria you are claiming objectively bears that out. Then someone else can disagree with your criteria.

I think, as others have mentioned, too many people are mistaking "objectively" with "absolutely".

However, I want point out (and here I am sorry to disagree with your lot in the poll, Disgraced =)) that yes, a game can be declared objectively good or bad *based on the criteria measured*. Remember, 'objectively' does not mean 'absolutely'. There is always room to disagree with criteria chosen, etc. etc. What the declaration does impose is that, for various x, y, or z reasons or use cases--under that light--the game is bad. Not absolutely bad, but bad under those measures.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that if one does say a game is good or bad, then one *must* back it up with objective reasons. Otherwise the value judgement is largely meaningless outside of personal or immediate group (e.g. your best friend) discussions. Saying "Hydrothunder is good cos it's just so good" isn't very useful. Saying "it just makes me feel good" isn't much better either.

I refuse to vote in the poll until there is a third option that reads "Yes, but just in terms of the objective measures evidenced".
 

Don Fluffles

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,061
Is this site a joke? If so, it's a weird one.
A joke and a commentary.

Another example of objectivity gone wrong. Critics' abysmal initial scores for God Hand would suggest that it's objectively a bad game according to them. However, fans who enjoyed it eventually turned its reputation around.

And look back in the 32/64-bit era, where apparently 3D games were seen as objectively superior to 2D games, with titles like Symphony of the Night and other 2D games being ignored by certain audiences for being "old fashioned."

This is why subjectivity and consensus makes more sense.
 

playXray

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
614
UK
No. I can't believe there's even a vote on this. There is absolutely no such thing as objectivity when it comes to the quality of a game.
 

bomma man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,068
This is wrong because Nazi propaganda being bad is subject to the individual. To a Nazi, it obviously wouldn't be bad, but to a normal non-Nazi person who isn't racist, the Nazi is bad and his opinion on Nazi propaganda doesn't matter. This is important to understand because we need to acknowledge that something doesn't have to be objective to be justified. Things like racism and Nazism are bad because we as people in society have decided to agree that they are bad because of their negative impact on our quality of life based on our empathy for each other. Not because nature has some ironclad rule that says it is bad. Accepting that objectivity doesn't exist in moral arguments and embracing them anyway is what makes the choice moral, and what makes us better people. It is bad not because it simply is, but because we thought about it, reflected about it, and decided for ourselves that it is bad.

So remember, when someone says that racism is "just an opinion", technically they are correct, but because we as human beings operate on a social rules and moral compasses, racism being bad should be the RIGHT opinion.

This is a very good post.

The argument against subjectivity reminds me of the religious argument that if there's no God, why not kill and rape as you please? Which says a lot more about the askor than the askee - it's intellectual and moral laziness.
 

Bioshocker

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,201
Sweden
I think there is. But I don't think there's an objective "fun" or "not fun". For example, Uncharted 4 is objective a good game. It's stunning, got a good story, great characters and voice acting and so on. But I never had much fun with it, mostly because I had seen and done it all three times before. So although UC4 is by every possible measure a good game, the fun factor for me was pretty low. Makes it hard to find a proper score from 1 to 10 (I finally landed on 8).
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,715
United Kingdom
There are well made "good" games and broken or buggy "bad" games.

I see people saying great games are bad all the time, when really it's just that person doesn't like the game. Same goes for people liking bad game. It's all down to an individual and what they think is good and bad.
 

ffvorax

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,855
For a media that is made to generate "fun" on the people who use it, I think it's super hard to be totally objective.

Minecraft is a huge success, but I don't like it at all and find it super boring. Half Life 2 too. Fortnite, Overwatch, GTA series, etc... there are so many famous games that I just find boring and don't like the mechanics, and I find them just bad, or not as good as people claims.

That said, I think Tetris is a good example of a probably objectively good game. It's a simple mechanic, intuitive and quick to learn, and also the challenge is for everyone (start easy and gets harder).
 

Echo

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,482
Mt. Whatever
If you mean technically, graphically, programming wise. Yes. A game can be objectively better than it's peers in these regards.

Story. Style. Writing. Characters. Music. Mood. Feelings. These things are subjective and there is no way around it.

People who vote yes and don't explain confuse me. I assume people who vote yes are also the type of people to get wrapped up in console wars and first-party fellatio shenanigans though.
 

Rendering...

Member
Oct 30, 2017
19,089
The media discussions we have on this forum are mostly about trading impressions and defending positions that are based on emotion and personal taste, so subjective standards don't really apply. We decide, often inconsistently, how much intellectual rigor should be brought to the table for any given argument. For contentious topics, opposing sides tend to raise their standards into the stratosphere.

When we focus on the divide between objective and subjective, we can lose sight of the layered nature of these categories. There are different levels of subjective. Often, how well an opinion is thought through matters more than the fact that it originates from a subjective viewpoint.

Someone who inanely states that Tekken 3 has a better story than The Last of Us is not worth taking seriously because it can be assumed that they haven't gone to extraordinary lengths to support a position that's absurd on its face. By contrast, it's probably worth hearing out someone who argues that Final Fantasy XII has deeper political themes than people give it credit for, and supports their conclusion with examples drawn from the game and linked together with clear-headed commentary.

To address the topic directly, though: quality isn't purely a matter of opinion. There are standards that depend not on personal values but quantitative criteria and matters of broad consensus like stable framerate, absence of glitches, writing that skillfully develops the plot and characters rather than leaning on low effort cliches and paper thin stereotypes, and so on.

Just because objective standards are hard to isolate or define separately from subjective ones doesn't mean they don't exist. It's just that people typically don't strive for impartiality when they're evaluating games. We usually care more about our own enjoyment. We focus on subjective standards based on our own preferences.
 
Last edited:

Tamath

Member
Oct 31, 2017
742
Vienna, Austria
No.

Let's take two cars: One is a classic car that has a top speed of, I dunno (I don't do cars) 80km/h, the other is a supercar that can do 300km/h. You can quite objectively say that one car has a higher top speed than the other. You can't say that the supercar is the better car, because looking at the car holistically, some people are going to enjoy the aesthetic of the classic car more, or feel nostalgic for the time the car was made, or simply don't care about the ability to drive at 300km/h in the first place. Some will like the "feel" of the classic car more than the supercar, and that's something you just can't measure.

We should also, to me, be looking at games holistically. A game has a higher resolution and/ore framerate than another one? Great, you can point that out and it will be undeniably, objectively true. Is it objectively a better game as a result? Of course it isn't, and anyone arguing that would look extremely foolish, because the person doing the arguing doesn't get to decide that. Nobody gets to.

Trying to work out if something is '"objectively" good is basically an exercise in missing the point.
 
OP
OP
Spring-Loaded

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
There are fundamental elements of game design that are objectively good. Not to say there aren't game design ideas that overlap or conflict with one another, but you can point to things as an example of a game system, level design, gameplay mechanic and the like as objectively good. As such, a game that drastically goes against these things is likely to be objectively bad, even something like Deadly Premonition is an objectively badly designed game, but it's a rare case where it's actually pretty great for the charm and goofiness that it intentialy revels in, but nonetheless it is an objectively badly designed game.

It's like writing. There can be poor sentence structure, grammar, pacing and dialogue and a story can be objectively bad. However, it's it's written on purpose that way for the meta narrative (depending on the narrator's intelligence, mannerisms, etc. then the material can be elevated. But at its core, a story can be objectively poorly written.

Now, a lot of times people conflate objectively bad with a game they dislike, or a game in which it has both good and bad design choices and for that individual the bad outweighs the good. Final Fantasy VIII is a good game, but some of the things that bother me prevent me from seeing it as an exceptional game the way some others do - I can point to some design/writing choices and say they are objectively poorly done, but I cannot say the entirety of the experience is objectively bad nor do I subjectively think it is bad.



The media discussions we have on this forum are mostly about trading impressions and defending positions that are based on emotion and personal taste, so subjective standards don't really apply. We decide, often inconsistently, how much intellectual rigor should be brought to the table for any given argument. For contentious topics, opposing sides tend to raise their standards into the stratosphere.

When we focus on the divide between objective and subjective, we can lose sight of the layered nature of these categories. There are different levels of subjective. Often, how well an opinion is thought through matters more than the fact that it originates from a subjective viewpoint.

Someone who inanely states that Tekken 3 has a better story than The Last of Us is not worth taking seriously because it can be assumed that they haven't gone to extraordinary lengths to support a position that's absurd on its face. By contrast, it's probably worth hearing out someone who argues that Final Fantasy XII has deeper political themes than people give it credit for, and supports their conclusion with examples drawn from the game and linked together with clear-headed commentary.

To address the topic directly, though: quality isn't purely a matter of opinion. There are standards that depend not on personal values but quantitative criteria and matters of broad consensus like stable framerate, absence of glitches, writing that skillfully develops the plot and characters rather than leaning on low effort cliches and paper thin stereotypes, and so on.

Just because objective standards are hard to isolate or define separately from subjective ones doesn't mean they don't exist. It's just that people typically don't strive for impartiality when they're evaluating games. We usually care more about our own enjoyment. We focus on subjective standards based on our own preferences.

These are, objectively, the best posts in this thread.
 

scrabble

Banned
May 8, 2018
150
If you can try to argue a game is objectively good without bringing subjective qualities than good luck.