GQ: The untold story of Otto Warmbier, the American who died at the hands of DPRK

Chittagong · Jul 28, 2018

GQ has produced a fantastic piece of investigative journalism to the tragic death of Otto Warmbier, the American detained by DPRK for stealing a poster

https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story

- Considering Otto's history, religion and ambition, it seems likely that his confession was forced
- Warmbier family reached Trump via targeted Fox News features after being stonewalled by Ivanka & co
- There was no physical evidence of physical torture, instead he seemed to have been well looked after
- DPRK historically hasn't physically tortured Western detainees as it would backfire
- The torture narrative is based on a single hearsay source, and was likely only paraded by the Trump team as grounds for military action
- There was likely significant psychological torture
- Damage to Warmbier's brain was uniform, consistent with lack of oxygen. Trauma to head would be asymmetrical
- The most likely hypothesis is that Warmbier attempted suicide after being crushed psychologically, and sentenced to 15 years, torching his ambitious life plan

tl;dr^2 - probably a freak series of events starting from a fairly benign act of stealing a poster drunk, through being psychologically crushed, to attempting suicide, ending in coma due to lack of oxygen and eventual death

Suede · Jul 29, 2018

Let's try this again. Please be considerate with your posts. Please be respectful of human life. Please do not derail this thread.

Akira86 · Jul 29, 2018

I buy the suicide attempt story. It fits well enough to cap the entire ordeal.

Them secretly beating the shit out of him for 15 years doesn't seem like it would get NK anything it wanted, and would earn them a whole mess of trouble.

there was a moment he stopped being a human being, and simply became a political game piece. It's fucked up, but there are a few places in the world where that can still very easily happen.

Skelepuzzle · Jul 29, 2018

I'll repost what I said, please do not give a cent to that regime or participate in their propaganda:

NK is not a tourist destination. Don't go there.

I feel terrible for his family.

KillLaCam · Jul 29, 2018

I hope people use stories like this to know to be extremely careful when they go to certain countries.

Leona Lewis · Jul 29, 2018

KillLaCam said:
I hope people use stories like this to know to be extremely careful when they go to certain countries.

Or just not go at all.

Akira86 · Jul 29, 2018

going to NK is kind of a macho, man of the world, will dare anything sort of deal anyway.

brutal dictatorship tourism, to prove you "ain't skeered" of anything. least of all global geopolitical morasses.

Deleted member 1067 · Jul 29, 2018

Akira86 said:
Them secretly beating the shit out of him for 15 years doesn't seem like it would get NK anything it wanted, and would earn them a whole mess of trouble.

Psychological torture can be just as effective if not even worse on the person subjected to it.

Read into some of the sensory deprivation torture programs the CIA employed against terror suspects sometime. Absolutely horrific shit.

Volimar · Jul 29, 2018

Akira86 said:
going to NK is kind of a macho, man of the world, will dare anything sort of deal anyway.

It doesn't even have to be that. Just that it's almost forbidden and gets so few American visitors is probably enough for many of these people.

KillLaCam · Jul 29, 2018

Leona Lewis said:
Or just not go at all.

There's always gonna be people who wanna go to places like this or even worse places. War zone tourism is surprisingly popular

Robin · Jul 29, 2018

Skelepuzzle said:
I'll repost what I said, please do not give a cent to that regime or participate in their propaganda:

NK is not a tourist destination. Don't go there.

I feel terrible for his family.

Can't disagree with you there. It's a poor idea for far too many reasons to name. My condolences to the family, it must be terrible to lose a family member and also be wrapped up in a story like this.

Deleted member 19003 · Jul 29, 2018

Poor guy. Not sure I buy the suicide theory. That's giving too much benefit of the doubt to a regime that deserves not an ounce of it. NK is downright awful, and could have tried non lethal torture that went wrong and didn't leave a mark. Also he knew his parents and congressmen were working to get him out, I don't think he was all that hopeless. I'm sure he was told of previous Americans being released.

Sandstar · Jul 29, 2018

Cas said:
Poor guy. Not sure I buy the suicide theory. That's giving too much benefit of the doubt to a regime that deserves not an ounce of it. NK is downright awful, and could have tried non lethal torture that went wrong and didn't leave a mark. Also he knew his parents and congressmen were working to get him out, I don't think he was all that hopeless. I'm sure he was told of previous Americans being released.

I think it's plausible that he was psychologically tortured, and attempted to commit suicide rather than live with 15 years of whatever shit NK had in store for him.

Deleted member 19003 · Jul 29, 2018

Sandstar said:
I think it's plausible that he was psychologically tortured, and attempted to commit suicide rather than live with 15 years of whatever shit NK had in store for him.

Then why didn't NK say that? The NK doctors said it was something like botcholism and a reaction to a drug, which was even more unbelievable.

broncobuster · Jul 29, 2018

The article reiterating that, as bad as Otto had it, foreign prisoners were treated far better than NK prisoners is distressing.

Speculation suggested that the tragedy might have occurred at a special labor camp for foreigners, where at least three Americans have performed their hard-labor sentences. There they were forced to plant soybeans or make bricks while living in spartan conditions, though, as Bae wrote, "Compared to the average North Korean serving time in a labor camp, I was in a four-star resort."

TemplaerDude · Jul 29, 2018

Whatever happened was inhumane, no question. Perhaps not physical, but mental. No one deserves what he had to go through.

Chittagong · Jul 29, 2018

Huh, I have never had a thread rebooted, didn't know it's possible but yeah - probably a good idea.

I'll repost my comments.

This goes to show that if you choose travel to these countries, you have to be extra hyper fucking mindful not to cock up when drunk.

The beers in DPRK are delicious but very strong and very inpure. A benign prank that might have seemed like a funny idea drunk might put in motion a chain of events that eventually puts you into a casket. No mucking about when visiting bad countries.

In his defense, I can well picture how this would have happened. I lived in that same hotel with the bowling lanes and the rotating restaurant and drank the same beers he did.

While being out and about during the day pretty quickly reminds you that you are in a place just short of Half-Life 2 opening level, being in that hotel can bring about a misguided sense of relaxation.

The guides will be more open and chatty in the bar, the hotel shop sells Coke, the building has got a big aquarium in the lobby, you feel like you can relax there after a day out that can be rather tense. So after a few beers you lose perspective and drop your hyper vigilance.

Dragonelite · Jul 29, 2018

He would not be the first westerner, that got drunk and did stupid/disrespectful stuff in Asia. Hell sometimes westerners don't even have to get drunk and do disrespecting stuff(logan Paul, rice gum etc etc). The world is not a playground learn a bit about a country before visiting. Especially a country with such a regime.

Westbahnhof · Jul 29, 2018

Dragonelite said:
He would not be the first westerner, that got drunk and did stupid/disrespectful stuff in Asia. Hell sometimes westerners don't even have to get drunk and do disrespecting stuff(logan Paul, rice gum etc etc). The world is not a playground learn a bit about a country before visiting. Especially a country with such a regime.

Obviously true that he shouldn't have done it, but I feel it's really odd to make a post like this without adding "Of course, North Korea is fucking insane and what happened should not have led to his incarceration in the first place."
Foolish or not, the guy didn't deserve this.

Powdered Egg · Jul 29, 2018

Torture murder vs suicide is a fact that needs to be sorted out.

Mad Max · Jul 29, 2018

Westbahnhof said:
Obviously true that he shouldn't have done it, but I feel it's really odd to make a post like this without adding "Of course, North Korea is fucking insane and what happened should not have led to his incarceration in the first place."
Foolish or not, the guy didn't deserve this.

Are we even sure he actually did anything? I mean it seems somewhat likely he did but still they could've just wanted to use him for propaganda/negotiation purposes.

Chittagong · Jul 29, 2018

Mad Max said:
Are we even sure he actually did anything? I mean it seems somewhat likely he did but still they could've just wanted to use him for propaganda/negotiation purposes.

I think it was likely that DPRK had an eye out for a bargaining chip and looked for someone to cock up.

It's pretty clear he didn't do the stuff in his confession, methodist church induced destabilisation of the state (dude apparently was jewish), but it is plausible that he would have come up with the idea to take a memento from his great adventure. It would have to have been for the story of doing it and having the real deal, because you can safely buy propaganda posters in the Pyongyang book store.

It doesn't make sense to DPRK to completely fabricate stealing the poster, as there are easier and less contentious ways they could have framed him. I think they were handed the opportunity and they had the need for a bargaining chip.

SuperBanana · Jul 29, 2018

Mad Max said:
Are we even sure he actually did anything? I mean it seems somewhat likely he did but still they could've just wanted to use him for propaganda/negotiation purposes.

I know someone who was actually there when Otto was arrested and he said that Otto seemed to understand and know why he was getting detained. I just don't think he had any idea of the seriousness of the punishment.

Sandstar · Jul 29, 2018

Cas said:
Then why didn't NK say that? The NK doctors said it was something like botcholism and a reaction to a drug, which was even more unbelievable.

You're asking why NK didn't accept responsibility for driving him to suicide as a result of psychological torture?

El-Suave · Jul 29, 2018

I wish somebody had brought him up while Trump was paising Kim so much. The president got a new publicity stunt and threw his old one under the bus.

Lackless · Jul 29, 2018

El-Suave said:
I wish somebody had brought him up while Trump was paising Kim so much. The president got a new publicity stunt and threw his old one under the bus.

No one brings it up because it doesn't look good for both Democrats and Republicans.

If it's brought up.
Democrat's reaction: "Otto was returned in a vegetable state after Trump's inauguration."
Republican's reaction: "Otto was detained and tortured under Obama's administration and yet he did nothing."

It won't be brought up or used because it doesn't benefit either party.

Chittagong · Jul 29, 2018

El-Suave said:
I wish somebody had brought him up while Trump was paising Kim so much. The president got a new publicity stunt and threw his old one under the bus.

Trump brought Warmbier up himself, it's at the end of the article. Poor guy had literally outlived his usefulness for both regimes.

jizzywinks · Jul 29, 2018

Great article, thanks for sharing. Admittedly I hadn't followed this story that closely but this is my first time reading anything that contradicts the story that he was tortured/beaten.

I was considering visiting NK while exploring Liaoning and in hindsight I'm glad I didn't. I understand the curiosity of wanting to visit but I don't think it's justifiable.

Chittagong · Jul 29, 2018

jizzywinks said:
Great article, thanks for sharing. Admittedly I hadn't followed this story that closely but this is my first time reading anything that contradicts the story that he was tortured/beaten.

I was considering visiting NK while exploring Liaoning and in hindsight I'm glad I didn't. I understand the curiosity of wanting to visit but I don't think it's justifiable.

Glad you found it interesting, it's all too rare to see proper investigative journalism these days.

We had a long discussion on GAF about the morality of going back in the day when I went and did a mildly trollish thread about it.

The often repeated argument is that you are giving money to a bad regime strapped for foreign currency.

The math is that even if the government took all of the $1,200 you pay for a trip, the 4,000-6,000 tourists annually would bring in only $4.8M-$7.2M. Meanwhile, the world bought DPRK exports worth $1.8B in 2017, down from $2.9B the year before.

So even if all tourists stopped going, it would have pretty much zero impact on their economy.

Now, not going out of principle of not giving even a penny to a brutal dictatorship, or not wanting to take the risk of something like this happening, or not wanting to become a propaganda mouthpiece, they are all solid reasons not to go.

Toth · Jul 29, 2018

A great and sad read. I never really thought about the suicide angle to the story and the evidence presented is compelling. As much as Otto's story is painful for anyone to take in and comprehend, I am sure Trump was happy as a pig in mud to use whatever he could from the tragedy to further his own agenda. NK though deserves plenty of blame for the acute psychological torture of the kid.

Deleted member 19003 · Jul 29, 2018

Sandstar said:
You're asking why NK didn't accept responsibility for driving him to suicide as a result of psychological torture?

Of course they would never admit to torturing. But they still could have said it was a suicide.

Gabbo · Jul 29, 2018

Cas said:
Of course they would never admit to torturing. But they still could have said it was a suicide.

Still doesn't look good for them if a foreign prisoner tries to kill themselves

Sandstar · Jul 29, 2018

Cas said:
Of course they would never admit to torturing. But they still could have said it was a suicide.

Maybe, but would anyone have believed it, coming from them?

phonicjoy · Jul 30, 2018

Chittagong said:
I think it was likely that DPRK had an eye out for a bargaining chip and looked for someone to cock up.

It's pretty clear he didn't do the stuff in his confession, methodist church induced destabilisation of the state (dude apparently was jewish), but it is plausible that he would have come up with the idea to take a memento from his great adventure. It would have to have been for the story of doing it and having the real deal, because you can safely buy propaganda posters in the Pyongyang book store.

It doesn't make sense to DPRK to completely fabricate stealing the poster, as there are easier and less contentious ways they could have framed him. I think they were handed the opportunity and they had the need for a bargaining chip.

Well, according to his roommate, thats what they did. From the article: In the past, North Korea has spun false confessions from small truths, and in this case they may have construed a conspiracy from a souvenir propaganda poster that Otto had bought, according to Danny Gratton, Otto's tour roommate.

GQ: The untold story of Otto Warmbier, the American who died at the hands of DPRK

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