valid point will read more. As I said I like responding to you as youre reasoned. The other person isnt.
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Swedish student's dramatic plane protest stops man's deportation 'to hell'
- Thread starter Norwegian_Imposter
- Start date
We just discussed that study a few posts above yours actually :)
Again, the study itself isn't problematic - the conclusions people are taking away from it are. It's an incredibly limited study that ignores most factors of economics and just focuses on taxation vs tax crowns spent on integrating the refugees. Those are clearly not the only cogs within an economic system lmao. That's why meta analysis is much more important than lone studies to gain an understanding of what is really going on, which I'm sure you agree with.
I'm saying that the nazis are the people using this to fuel their propaganda, which they clearly are. Obviously I don't think Ruist or the ESO are responsible for that though I think there may or may not be a bias in terms of funding behind the research, but I can't make any absolute claims to that, just saying that it's reasonable to be somewhat skeptical of why the study was conducted the way it was.
Yes, I wasn't assuming anything about you - just wanted to clear up the claims you were making an add them to the discussion. Sorry if I come across as hostile in any way!
I don't think that's fair to that poster since they are honestly saying the exact same thing I am, lol. I just seemingly have a lot more time on my hands :P
there is a difference between a sure jan gif response and a paragraph of reasoned sentences response... and well we all have time on our hands given were posting on an internet forum :) :P
It's cool. Also thanks for not trying to make a case for "guy" being gender-neutral, I genuinely appreciate it. :)
As far as blowing TyrantGuardian 's views out of proportion, I don't think that's actually what I was doing...my position is that people have intrinsic value that outweighs concerns of privilege or bigotry, therefore asylum seekers should be granted asylum, refugees shouldn't be deliberately deported back into violence, and open borders are an ideal we should work towards, a la EU member states. My worldview heavily emphasizes humanitarian priorities over all others. I think that about sums up TG's point too, as far as I can tell, except they are saying it much better and have much more legitimate insight to offer on the subject than I do, so I'm mostly just showing support for that instead of taking the lead.
I think TyrantGuardian's citations serve to illustrate the premise that what we're advocating for isn't nearly as unrealistic or idealistic as it's commonly portrayed. Arguments against it (such as "it's not feasible") do not seem valid in light of the data available. That's not really extrapolation quite so much as looking at the research and taking it seriously.
Okay yeah the gif was petty, but I mean you called me a hypocrite and asked me to prove to you that I deserve to be part of this conversation. It's a false equivalence you're using there.
Thank you for making this post.
No agree , if we look at it from a purely humanitarian aspect as I said I agree. Long term I would like the world to be fully open border myself. I just wonder how to approach it etc. And I am more than willing to read up on the impact of vastly larger immigration numbers (I will read more but the few studies Ive found so far are not about asylum immigration but general immigration and they show both short and long term benefits. So thats a good sign ... I'm trying to find a large refugee immigration study but havent so far will look up and search more tomorrow)
well I did overreact also. Perils of online convos instead of inperson . but as I said Im reading up more on studies on larger immigration numbers :)
The data doesn't agree nor do most economic analysts. You should be careful to peddle false information like that other than if you actually want to out yourself a racist and not just ignorant.
This, migration has some profound economic advantages:
- An oversized labor pool makes it easier to break strikes, and replace personel that underperforms.
- This ease of replacement allows for a unique negotiation position during wage talks and other stipulations of an employment contract, it also motivates the laborer to work harder or to agree with requests to put in unpaid hours. (They can be disposed of, and replaced much quicker than during the status quo.)
Some people also want us to believe that all immigration is a net positive for the country economically. That's just not true. For previous immigration it might have been (people who came from the Balkans in the 90s etc), but the recent massive immigration is not, and won't be for a LONG time if ever.
https://www.svd.se/m-redovisa-kostnader-for-invandring
Are M a racist party? I believe even S has admitted it costs more than it contributes. Most who have come recently are not highly educated doctors and engineers, even though some want us to think so.
Lol. RoadHazard
You can make a million other arguments for why immigration might be bad why die on this hill that has so much data and people that study this shit backing it up that immigration is a general net positive. So many other ways to be a less obvious racist unless of course you're just so ignorant and incapable of engaging with the data.
Also telling that you post a single link not in English so people can't debunk that shit in seconds.
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Nothing to debunk honestly, it's just political rhetoric from a right wing politician with no sourcing behind it. Pointless article.
Well let's say I'm not surprised but grateful for the confirmation.
Here in Germany that's what big companies gambled on in 2015, but in the end it turned out that the education level was just way too low compared to the home workforce and the costs to educate them properly would simply outperform the benefits.
Somehow coincidentally at that very moment that was realized the whole imigration policy in the country changed to a more strict and hostile one. In the end big money decides.
The current refugee wave is not a net positive, and it will take a long time for that to happen if it ever will. That's just obvious without any research to back it up. Most of those people are not contributing yet, that's not even up for discussion. I wasn't talking about all immigration in general.
Again, on average it takes between 3-5 years for it to become a net positive and for these people to pay for your children's education via taxes. It's not "obvious" and you are spreading incredibly harmful racist propaganda that is completely opposed to the data. You DO need to back these claims up with research because they are literally false. You can't just go "oh that's old data and these refugees are much worse than the ones from the balkans!". Why would these refugees be any worse? Please explain that to me.
https://amp.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/allt-fler-nyanlanda-hittar-jobb-snabbare
According to this (yes, in Swedish, since this is about Sweden) it takes 5 years for half of immigrants to become established on the work market. Which is an improvement over how it was 10 years ago, but I don't see how this matches what you're saying.
And since the big recent wave happened in 2015, clearly they're not an economic positive yet. I'm not trying to be controversial, it just seems obvious?
Obvious without any research.
If I bought into that garbage everytime and wouldn't use my brain I'd probably be racist too. Also notice how you changed your argument suddenly from
"Immigrants do have a negative impact on the economy overall" to refugees still 0 data with your statement just pure nonsense racist propaganda peddling.
Fact remains past data teaches us they're positive impact and we don't have any new current data that would tell us in this case otherwise.
And post like this is exactly why you can't be forthcoming. Peddles fantasy racist propaganda. Get's told with hard data of it not being true. Moves the goalpost provides 0 verifiable data and continues to peddle racist propaganda. What's next we find data soon that refugees are the same as the past and provide a net positive you gonna move the goal post again to only unskilled young refugees that have a history of criminality in their asyl seeking country only those are actually a net negative. herpiderpiderp checkmate! *facepalm*
Moving the goalpost again here. So it's now not even if they're a positive impact economically overall but they're a bad impact right now that is the argument?
Still doesn't provide data to any of his statements.
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Absolutely the same as any racist turds this is a script I've seen a 100 times and it does not deserve to be entertained further because they cannot produce trustworthy data on any statements they make and will forever refuse to engage in good faith with all the data a single google search away. The way I see this going is this idiot is going to vanish or this idiot is going to make more and more statements moving the goal post again and again until anything sticks.
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User Banned (3 Days): Spreading disinformation
So now SVT is also peddling racist bullshit? Funny, they're usually accused of the opposite.
Obvious because it's only been three years. If half of immigrants are on the work market in 5 years...
But yes, my original statement was too broad. Obviously we don't know yet what the end result of the recent immigration wave will be. But from what I've gathered they're generally less educated than many earlier immigrants. Don't have an article to back that up though, just something I remember reading, might not be accurate. It's also a larger wave than ever before, which obviously strains the systems. It's gonna be harder for all of them to become contributing members of society just because of simple numbers.
Why are you asking me this. I cannot verify I already pointed out that is fucking sketch that you post non English sources when there IS A FUCKTON of English stuff that disproves all the claims you generally have made.
The other guy already outed your first link as right wing propaganda so how can I be sure you post anything in good faith.
So you apparently don't have any grasp on engaging with proper data is that what's telling me instead you prefer the easy narratives that make sense to your mind cause they're "so obvious". Lmao.
Also LMAO.
Hey I spout racist propaganda that I base of, of stuff that might or might not have been fake news. I will argue on 0 reliable data against what all economic analysts and a multitude of studies have already disproven until I get so harshly beaten by truth and facts until I have concede and reframe my entire position that is entirely founded on stuff I gathered from what might or might have not been fake news/propaganda. Don't have any studies to back this up though but I remember reading....
Still feels comfortable to throw it out there based on this flimsy foundation.
LMAO
Yo dude remember when in my very first reply to you I said this.
And yet you somehow still went down this rabbit hole of nonsense.
Not to comment on this specific case, but refugees/immigrants from different nations do get employed with very varied success (atleast in Finland). And some nationalities are overrepresented in sexual assaults or other crimes. There's probably many different reasons for that and one is obviously racism from the potential employers. Half of the people from Somalia or with Somalian born parents (excluding kids ofc) are unemployed here, while in contrast to Minnesota which apparently has sizeable Somalian population the unemployment rate is just 16%. So clearly it's not really smart or fair to put the blame on just the refugees, but the host nation holds a responsibility too. Specifically Somalians get really heavily discriminated here, even more so than people from other African nations. According to a 2012 report, even though there's been Somalian population in Finland for over 20 years they are still the least well integrated group. And 70% of people with Somalian roots doesn't have even one Finnish friend, which to me also tells about the racist attitudes towards Somalians. https://www.coe.int/t/dghl/monitoring/ecri/Country-by-country/Finland/FIN-CbC-IV-2013-019-ENG.pdf
Luckily there's people like Abdirahim Hussein, who has worked tirelessly to bridge the gap between Somalian refugees and the locals, by working in many different positions (including politics) to help and benefit the Somalian community here.
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Ok, first off - SVT is NOT agreeing with you, you are just backpedaling from every single claim you have made in this thread so far instead of acknowledging that you were wrong. That's not how a debate works, my friend.
We DO know what the end result of the recent immigration wave will be, based on historic precedent that OVERWHELMINGLY disagrees with you. It's not like "oh in 60% of cases it was positive and the other 40% it was negative", NO. In 100% of historic cases of refugee waves it has turned out positive within, on average, 3-5 years. That is the claim and we can safely assume that the trend will continue barring massive shifts in policy which haven't happened because our government isn't fucking insane (yet). If you don't have any data to cite, then don't spread misinformation about these immigrants being "less educated". There is a plethora of nazi propaganda out there claiming exactly that so you "reading" it somewhere isn't exactly saying much. This also presumes that they have to be highly educated to have a positive economic impact when that is ALSO not true, historically. Even refugees with low education are a net positive economically speaking, so your point is completely irrelevant. Even more irrelevant if we approach this entire thing from the angle of THEIR LIVES ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR FUCKING MONEY JESUS CHRIST ok I'm gonna calm down.
I guess you're banned now but man, your posts were some of the weakest I've seen in a while. Just full of backpedaling, moving goalposts and concern trolling. Geez man, read a book every once in a while. It won't hurt you.
Yes I mean, obviously the darker your skin the more racism you will automatically face, plus the current intense islamophobia on the part of racists. We certainly agree that the blame should not be put on the refugees but on our societies and government institutions not doing a better job educating people on these issues.
I'm not so sure about your claim in terms of crime. I would posit that many crimes, including sexual and regular assault/mugging/random violence, often get shrugged off as "dumb idiot shit" that people can't be bothered to report to the police (in cases where men face violence) and where women are afraid of reporting sexual crimes from men who are included in their wider social circles. On the other hand, if a outsider who is already facing xenophobia does something, you can bet your ass people will report THAT crime because they have literally nothing to lose nor explain to others. I've seen this in action first hand, with a friend who got assaulted once by a drunk "ethnic Swede" late at night where his reaction was "fuck that guy, can't be bothered" but when he was mugged (non-violently) by a black guy he went on this huge tirade (until I told him to fuck off and get a grip) and filed a police report instantly with no hesitation. Anecdotal, I know – but probably very common.
So yes, refugees and other migrants might be overly represented criminally when it comes to pure statistics, but I seriously doubt it's because of their culture/genetics (lol) or even bad integration in most cases. I think it's just a matter of who gets reported and who doesn't with ethnic Swedes committing just as much crime per capita.
But yeah, I certainly won't argue against the need for much better integration regardless, I just think that's in large part down to education on human rights and teaching people to have respect for other cultures (let me pre-empt this racist talking point) broadly speaking even if some aspects of some cultures aren't compatible with ours. That doesn't mean the people are shit, it just means that they haven't been instilled the same values through their schooling. That's not a problem if you have a framework that welcomes these people and explains why some of that stuff is not ok without throwing their entire identity under the bus. Excuse my digression, and I'm sure we mostly agree on this.
See, that's my point. That guy sounds like a true hero, but we shouldn't need heroes for this. Bridging that gap should ideally be the job of our governments and institutions, not passionate activists. People like him being there and doing great work is a symptom of the problem and perhaps brings us closer to the solution, but shouldn't be seen as the solution itself.
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Yeah it's not definitely as simple as just culture. Racism and discrimination leads to unemployment, which leads to poverty, which can lead to crime (theft). Not to sexual assault though. And there's differences between nationalities specifically, not just between natives and refugees/immigrants overall. The stats are by nationality, not race or skin color. Of course the gender equality, or the lack of it, differs greatly around the world between countries. But this can be also affected by something like gender split among the specific group. Since males are by large margin the most likely perperators of sexual assaults, then if the certain group skews proportionally more to male than the local population (which it does in certain cases here), this can affect the statistics that show overrepresentation for certain nationality or immigrants/refugees overall. Also the average age of the group can affect this, if the group skews bit more on the younger side. As atleast in Finland almost 40% of perperators of sexual assault are in the age bracket of 21-30. This happens the other way too though, women with Asian or African backgrounds are proportionally more likely to be victims of sexual assault than a native Finn. And as you said, it's true that some are more likely to report a crime made by a "foreigner" than a native. It's quite complex overall, definitely not that "refugees/immigrants are evil people!". Unfortunately many people aren't willing or capable to look at the issue any further than "they are rapists, stats told me!". I'm not discrediting the stats, but what affects those stats needs a bit deeper look. I believe the stats can be helpful, not in a way that who should be let in but if a certain group needs specific education and guidance. People are always inviduals and should be generally treated as such.
Absolutely. People shouldn't throw away their culture and heritage, that's not required for successful integration. Obviously some issues like gender equality, acceptance of LGBT can be things that some people struggle with when coming here, these things are really important and everyone should adapt to that. But many of the natives struggle with these still too. So it's really not a problem exclusive to immigration/refugees. And it's quite infuriating to see the fake concern from the nationalist party here when it comes to LGBT and Islam. Like yeah, I agree with them in a sense but they really should fix their own shit first. Don't vote against gender neutral marriage and then tell me how concerned you are over the discrimination and hostility towards LGBT by Muslims.
Yeah he's great. He's been quite visible in media and politics for some time. There's more great people here in politics and otherwise who have done fine work too on behalf of ethnic minorities, just wanted to name him specifically since I was talking about the Somalian community. It's important to get such representatives for minorities in politics. We are still very white and very Finnish nation, so voices that should be heard can get muffled way too easily. This is the case for indigenous people here too, even though they are white. And of course as I said earlier, it's not just the responsibility of the minorities. But they also need to be allowed a platform and given support.
Edit: Your response to RoadHazard about even low education refugees being net positive reminded me, that quite recently this was a discussion topic here too. As an economist/professor claimed that even many of the employed immigrants end up to be a negative, since they work in low income jobs hence paying only little of taxes. While benefitting from the social security benefits, free healthcare, education etc. But the thing also is, I happen to know this person since he's a friend of my father. And he's a full blown racist, the shit I heard coming from his mouth when I was a kid is something else. I still remember two different things very clearly what he said, since I was bit shocked/confused to hear them. It was probably first time I encountered such blatant racism outside of media, even though at the time I wasn't quite sure if they were just "jokes". So because of this, I really have hard time listening to him. And even if it would be true, his motivations are most definitely rotten. And I really don't like that people who are likely to struggle finding work because of racism but have done so anyway, get shit like that thrown at them. They are productive members of the society and helping to make the wheels spin. The guy has been whispering to the ear of the nationalist party too, even though he is independent.
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Similar thing just happened in Finland. Woman boarded the plane with her family and saw that there was a deportation going on. She went to her seat when stewardess asked but refused to sit down. The woman tried to ask other passengers to join the protest. Not much reaction from the crowd except someone complaining that they are in a hurry since they need to catch another flight. Stewardess took her to meet the captain first who told he would do the flight anyway and will ask police to remove her if she refuses to take her seat. So police escorted her out to the police car and she only got a warning out of it. They informed her that the airline can ask her for compensation for the delay and endangering of traffic safety, but atleast so far Finnair hasn't been in contact with her. She had left her husband and child out of the protest so they flew to Berlin without her. The woman works as a secretary for the Green Party.
https://www.facebook.com/aino.pennanen/videos/10157364948987814/
https://www.facebook.com/aino.pennanen/videos/10157364948987814/
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Report of offence was made as it should, so warning wasn't enough.