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Assassin's Creed Odyssey has an Alexios Problem [Loomer]
- Thread starter Zero-ELEC
- Start date
I knew what this thread was going to be about when I clicked. I can't agree with ripping choices from the player, though I do agree Alexandra should be in more marketing and I'll definitely be playing as her (I always play as the woman character when given an option).
Feeling absolutely the same. Couldn't word it better. I was absolutely hyped for Origins, and just can't care enough for Odyssey. I'll wait for a sale.
I could not agree with him more.
The marketing thus far feels like regression in light of the fact that Kassandra is canon. And for a company that likes to tout its "diversity" not only did they sideline Evie in marketing campaign and the boxart of Syndicate, somehow, players are suddenly given a "choice" between male and female protagonist when a woman finally makes a canonical entry in the home console version of franchise (liberation does not count because it was conceived and first released on a portable console with far lesser reach than XB1 and PS4 combined).
The marketing thus far feels like regression in light of the fact that Kassandra is canon. And for a company that likes to tout its "diversity" not only did they sideline Evie in marketing campaign and the boxart of Syndicate, somehow, players are suddenly given a "choice" between male and female protagonist when a woman finally makes a canonical entry in the home console version of franchise (liberation does not count because it was conceived and first released on a portable console with far lesser reach than XB1 and PS4 combined).
Gamers get all heated up for the most innocuous things. Ubi wanted to expand their demographics, added a fem character and just like in ME, devs liked her enough to make her the "canon" character. Marketing is still super wary about that and such uses Alexios, with the promise of Kassandra being a marketing face in the next stage of the campaign. That's it.
Could be better? hell yes.. They should feature her more in the marketing? You betcha. But baby steps, baby steps.
It's obvious they're DYING to make a female started AC since Syndicate. Origins planted the seeds to make Aya a permanent character and this game focuses on Kassandra.
We're getting there.
Could be better? hell yes.. They should feature her more in the marketing? You betcha. But baby steps, baby steps.
It's obvious they're DYING to make a female started AC since Syndicate. Origins planted the seeds to make Aya a permanent character and this game focuses on Kassandra.
We're getting there.
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No slight against thee but given you wrote the name of the female protagonist as "Alexandra", I think it might be an indication of the piss poor job Ubisoft has done with her thus far.
Apart from the lore reasons for not wanting character-choice (which I get, but that lore is already tarnished and in my opinion should disappear from the series), I was glad that this wasn't another anti-women and anti-diversity youtuber full of hatred. His points were geeky, sure, but well made and justified and he has his heart in the right place.
I like being able to choose a character because it will let me create the first playable male gay character in the series, and that's something I value a lot. And I think many lesbians are glad they can now properly roleplay the time-period in a way they identify with, and that for me is what these games are supposed to be.
I like being able to choose a character because it will let me create the first playable male gay character in the series, and that's something I value a lot. And I think many lesbians are glad they can now properly roleplay the time-period in a way they identify with, and that for me is what these games are supposed to be.
From what I understand, Assassin's Creed: Origins added a lot of RPG elements to the series and Odyssey is going to double down on that. Player choice in any RPG is a good thing in my opinion. I'm glad I can choose between a male and a female Shepard in Mass Effect. I'm glad I'll be able to choose between a male and a female in Cyberpunk 2077 when that comes out. Of course, predefined characters can still work in an RPG because it allows for a more fleshed out and unique story that is focused around a single character. But I don't think one design choice is better than the other in this regard. It just provides different experiences with different strengths and weaknesses.
Marketing is an entirely separate issue. Ubisoft should definitely be using Kassandra a lot more in the marketing of Odyssey. They did feature her more prominently at E3 if I'm remembering correctly though. As for the issues with the "lore" that the video in the OP brought up... this is Assassin's Creed we are talking about... the lore has been completely fucked up since Patrice Désilets was dropped from the franchise in favor of milking the series to death.
Marketing is an entirely separate issue. Ubisoft should definitely be using Kassandra a lot more in the marketing of Odyssey. They did feature her more prominently at E3 if I'm remembering correctly though. As for the issues with the "lore" that the video in the OP brought up... this is Assassin's Creed we are talking about... the lore has been completely fucked up since Patrice Désilets was dropped from the franchise in favor of milking the series to death.
No, not really. I'm just in that phase where I wanna know more but I also don't wanna get too into it 'cause I can't wait for the game and watching a bunch of footage is just gonna make me mad 'cause I can't go buy it. I'd forgotten the dude's name too until I read the thread.
I assumed Alexios/Alexandra instead of Kassandra 'cause that's usually the split. No worries, by the time the game comes out I won't make that mistake again.
Ubisoft has done a poor job of makreting Kassandra, considering she's canon.
They'll be releasing a book that follows the events of the game with Kassandra as the protagonist, it's ridiculous she isn't front and center.
They'll be releasing a book that follows the events of the game with Kassandra as the protagonist, it's ridiculous she isn't front and center.
Ubisoft cant risk alienating those ferengi male gamers, they're just too important
Meanwhile, Ubisoft is like fuck women and other people who should keep settling for scraps
They're progressing toward it and even though it might not be there yet or at a pace we'd all like it's a far cry from "fuck women". Literally looking at a positive trending progression of female involvement in their games and decrying it. It's bizarre.
so they are finally moving toward allowing players to choose their character/gender and yet people are still mad that they aren't making it strictly one or the other? I mean there's literally people getting mad that they aren't simply restricting it from one side to the other...
I think it's great that we have choices now, male, female, straight or gay, they are letting the players make their own choices for the character they are playing instead of trying to restrict everyone to a straight male role or specific role, imo the series as a whole is more suited toward this rpg style of character that lets the player customize their character more.
I do wish they'd have Kassandra more in the marketing and things for the game though.
I think it's great that we have choices now, male, female, straight or gay, they are letting the players make their own choices for the character they are playing instead of trying to restrict everyone to a straight male role or specific role, imo the series as a whole is more suited toward this rpg style of character that lets the player customize their character more.
I do wish they'd have Kassandra more in the marketing and things for the game though.
After the unbridled success of Horizon Zero Dawn which featured a strong female lead, I really felt like the barrier was broken in a way that would lead to more games with some female leads.
We've seen a lot of growth in that regard, with a lot of AAA games having more prominent female characters, but clearly there is still a long way to go. There's a reason the marketing for this game decided to almost exclusively feature the male option. I'm sure they have valid reasons, and while it feels lame since Kassandra is the Canon character, I don't necessarily think their reasoning was devious. The male character fits what people envision a Spartan warrior to be, and the marketing seems to really be hammering on that tone.
I agree that it's stupid, and again after the success of hzd I don't understand why these companies still think they have to have a male lead or showcase the male option in marketing. However, I also just don't think it's that huge of a deal. I'm not sure how outraged I'm supposed to be by this, but I end up just thinking "that's lame" and moving past it.
If given the option, I usually play as a female (I'm a male) just because I'm getting bored of playing as a male all of the time. At 34 I've played so many games to this point with a male lead, I'll take the female if anything for variety. I played as Evie in syndicate the entire time except for when the game made be play Jacob. For me it's another layer of getting to play out a fantasy world.
Anyway, Kassandra looks cooler, and her voice actress seems much better. I'll definitely play as her. These marketing teams need to get with the times.
We've seen a lot of growth in that regard, with a lot of AAA games having more prominent female characters, but clearly there is still a long way to go. There's a reason the marketing for this game decided to almost exclusively feature the male option. I'm sure they have valid reasons, and while it feels lame since Kassandra is the Canon character, I don't necessarily think their reasoning was devious. The male character fits what people envision a Spartan warrior to be, and the marketing seems to really be hammering on that tone.
I agree that it's stupid, and again after the success of hzd I don't understand why these companies still think they have to have a male lead or showcase the male option in marketing. However, I also just don't think it's that huge of a deal. I'm not sure how outraged I'm supposed to be by this, but I end up just thinking "that's lame" and moving past it.
If given the option, I usually play as a female (I'm a male) just because I'm getting bored of playing as a male all of the time. At 34 I've played so many games to this point with a male lead, I'll take the female if anything for variety. I played as Evie in syndicate the entire time except for when the game made be play Jacob. For me it's another layer of getting to play out a fantasy world.
Anyway, Kassandra looks cooler, and her voice actress seems much better. I'll definitely play as her. These marketing teams need to get with the times.
Yeah I know it sucks when you game have some solid fundations but gets twisted at the point to be a completely idea of the main story was aiming for to please your audience and bring more people to the game
The goalposts for complaining will always be moved. If they put both on the cover the complaint would be she's placed behind him on the cover or something dumb like that.
and I say this as someone who will be playing as Kassandra most likely. Her acting seems less wooden from the little I saw.
I think Ubisoft is still afraid of alienating all those gamers who unironically scream and post "SJW" whenever a male character (likely white) is not the lead.
If you watch the video in its entirety, the narrator outlines how giving the choice comes at the cost of established narrative points entrenched within the franchise.
Fair enough.
If you watch the video in its entirety, the narrator outlines how giving the choice comes at the cost of established narrative points entrenched within the franchise.
Fair enough.
The video does a really bad job selling his take. I don't think there would be anything wrong with making the game exclusively about Kassandra rather than a one or the other, and of course they're trying to look out for their ferengi male gamer audience as a previous poster puts it, but nevertheless trying to argue about Ubisoft's shoehorned animus explanation as a reason to drop Alexios is pretty ridiculous, as the Animus make's no sense, has never made sense, and never will.
Jacob and Evie are two seperate characters.
Alexios and Kassandra are the same character, and choosing one makes the other not exist.
I agree with him.
It's shitty that a franchise so dedicated to representation and diversity seems to tiptoe around putting said diversity up front. III and Origins were solid steps, but it's disappointing to see characters like Aveline, Shao Jun, and Adewale relegated to spinoffs and DLC, and Evie and Kassandra almost trojan horse'd in.
It's silly that they couldn't include Kassandra in, like, any of the marketing outside of trailers.
It's shitty that a franchise so dedicated to representation and diversity seems to tiptoe around putting said diversity up front. III and Origins were solid steps, but it's disappointing to see characters like Aveline, Shao Jun, and Adewale relegated to spinoffs and DLC, and Evie and Kassandra almost trojan horse'd in.
It's silly that they couldn't include Kassandra in, like, any of the marketing outside of trailers.
There is defintely room for improvement and make some progress for an equal balanced representations (which we haven't gotten to there yet), but I feel it's a bit unfair punishing Ubisoft for making a step (although small) forward. They could be on track of a female lead Assassin's Creed at some point.
Complete opposite for me. I didn't like the setting of Origins very much, thought the side missions were poor, and was not captivated by the main storyline. I'm waaaaay more excited for Odyssey. The setting looks much better. Stoked to explore Ancient Greece. The side missions they have shown also look like an improvement. Also, the ability to make dialogue choices, have romantic interests, there are elements of the amazing Black Flag with the ships, etc. I love it. Far more interesting than Origins to me.
I'm glad at least we can all agree that Aveline doesn't count, she should be relegated to a historical footnote at best. Maybe one day there will be a Portable History Month and we'll all be forced to pretend to care about her non-accomplishment but until then...
I feel it does a huge disservice to your video game if the marketing and developer interviews are at odds with each other. If you're going to say that Kassandra is the lead canon assassin then she should be front and center on everything. Otherwise it just seems like you're playing it up to score some brownie points.
I feel the story (which has never been a strong point in the series) is going to suffer with two interchangeable leads. How can the characters be canon?
Just pick one and go all out
Just pick one and go all out
A bit detached from all this, but for some reason it reminds me of mass effect focusing almost exclusively on male Shepard on marketing. Femshep didn't even have a 'canon' appearance until three and all that, yet I think stats said she was more played..? Marketing is stupid.
It's a problem that the marketing is so heavily focused on Alexios. It should be more even, given they are both protagonists. Hell, you could do more marketing that featured them together, mirrored in different scenarios to highlight the increased amount of player choice in this title compared to past AC games.
As for having Kassandra being the set protagonist, I think that would be really cool but you also have to keep in mind what is lost in that change. For example, they've confirmed same sex romances in the game, so having a male protagonists means that AC suddenly has representation for gay male players, a group that is usually represented in games less than even women are. So maybe it's worth having the choice, because it allows for more representation for marginalized groups than having Kassandra being the sole protagonist would.
As for having Kassandra being the set protagonist, I think that would be really cool but you also have to keep in mind what is lost in that change. For example, they've confirmed same sex romances in the game, so having a male protagonists means that AC suddenly has representation for gay male players, a group that is usually represented in games less than even women are. So maybe it's worth having the choice, because it allows for more representation for marginalized groups than having Kassandra being the sole protagonist would.
Preface to this post: I *do* think female characters get consistently shafted by marketing that continues to be overly concerned how men 18-30ish view the games and that I'm happy to see when things shift to be a little more equal.
But
I think being able to choose between both a male and female pc and move Assassin's Creed more towards an RPG is the most exciting thing the franchise has ever done. So I think that's good. And as someone who is a big fan of Mass Effect, did I feel sometimes it sucked that FemShep didn't get any marketing? Sure, but she's one of my fav characters in gaming and I don't think the marketing in any way made her lesser in the ACTUAL game. The marketing for the game isn't even really aimed at *me* who already knows that if the game turns out to be good, I'll be picking it up and playing Kassandra.
But
I think being able to choose between both a male and female pc and move Assassin's Creed more towards an RPG is the most exciting thing the franchise has ever done. So I think that's good. And as someone who is a big fan of Mass Effect, did I feel sometimes it sucked that FemShep didn't get any marketing? Sure, but she's one of my fav characters in gaming and I don't think the marketing in any way made her lesser in the ACTUAL game. The marketing for the game isn't even really aimed at *me* who already knows that if the game turns out to be good, I'll be picking it up and playing Kassandra.
The marketing emphasis on Alexios is what really feels unnecessary considering they've declared Kassandra's story as canon. They really don't know what they should be doing. I hope the story won't suffer like FC5 because of them trying to force in a male protagonist just because people will stop complaining about it.
I watched his video and was unconvinced by the first part about why their should only be one protagonist, but I do agree that ac should have a legit female lead.
That being said it's a tough spot for Ubi, I feel like they're still making amends for unity which was dumb. I feel like they made evie playable because of that (she seemed like she existed in a much diminished roll and was bolstered late in the game imo) and now this.
On the the other hand if you take the more optimistic point of view it could be this is a natural progression of evie to Cassandra with ubi Quebec and the next game by either origins team or Quebec will likely have a female lead either aya or someone new.
That being said it's a tough spot for Ubi, I feel like they're still making amends for unity which was dumb. I feel like they made evie playable because of that (she seemed like she existed in a much diminished roll and was bolstered late in the game imo) and now this.
On the the other hand if you take the more optimistic point of view it could be this is a natural progression of evie to Cassandra with ubi Quebec and the next game by either origins team or Quebec will likely have a female lead either aya or someone new.
I was going to make a longer comment, but this pretty much sums up my thoughts.
I think it's always good to be critical of things and dissect what can be done better. Marketing both protagonists evenly would have more accurately reflected the player's choice over the player character, and it follows an unfortunate trend where games show favoritism towards their male protagonist when gender is selectable. However, while more games with exclusively female protagonists would do the industry some good, I'll rarely say no to options that give the player more choice. This is the first Assassin's Creed game I'm considering purchasing because it allows me to tailor the protagonist into someone I can more strongly identify with. Even though I'll be playing as Kassandra, I think it's awesome that players that want to experience the game as a gay or bisexual Alexios are able to do so.
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In Fallout 4 you are the father or the mother looking for their own son which makes sense and the other gets killed, what the video is trying to say Ubisoft declared the female avatar is the protagonist yet the male avatar is the main focus of the game Marketing
Anyone play as a female in Far Cry 5? Remember how Hurk called you a dude and that awkward chest tattoo cutscene where the game kinda forgot you had boobs?
I presume ACO is going to be at least a little bit better considering the PC actually has a name but I wouldn't hold out for much.
The book being about Kassandra feels more like Ubi throwing us a bone. It's not like any of the AC books are even any good.
I presume ACO is going to be at least a little bit better considering the PC actually has a name but I wouldn't hold out for much.
The book being about Kassandra feels more like Ubi throwing us a bone. It's not like any of the AC books are even any good.
For me,
1. They probably have "big data" and they know what is most popular choice when it comes to play as what gender player prefer the data probably get "significant" number so they dont really want to do female protag only, i think they have playtime on Syndicate to look for. To avoid controversy they decide to double dip this time (which somehow lead to other controversy such as this thread)
2. For ME, it isnt make sense at all to include female spartan in this time period but no complain because it just fiction and nothing to be taken serious but i am being honest that if the game exclusively go for Kass as protag. I will just skip this game with no complain because it isnt make sense for me for this time period and i play this game not for story but for time period. (dont try to make sense AC story or you will get headache anyway) Guess i may fall into Ubisoft's "big data" ? They use the book to maybe shut up the complainer a bit.
3. Having an option always nice, nothing to complain here. It just isnt work that you try to point out that everthing has to be inclusive look at that Mass Effect for example. It works great and give the player choice which identity they want to represent themselves in the game.
1. They probably have "big data" and they know what is most popular choice when it comes to play as what gender player prefer the data probably get "significant" number so they dont really want to do female protag only, i think they have playtime on Syndicate to look for. To avoid controversy they decide to double dip this time (which somehow lead to other controversy such as this thread)
2. For ME, it isnt make sense at all to include female spartan in this time period but no complain because it just fiction and nothing to be taken serious but i am being honest that if the game exclusively go for Kass as protag. I will just skip this game with no complain because it isnt make sense for me for this time period and i play this game not for story but for time period. (dont try to make sense AC story or you will get headache anyway) Guess i may fall into Ubisoft's "big data" ? They use the book to maybe shut up the complainer a bit.
3. Having an option always nice, nothing to complain here. It just isnt work that you try to point out that everthing has to be inclusive look at that Mass Effect for example. It works great and give the player choice which identity they want to represent themselves in the game.
Hear hear.
They were doing no such thing, come on.
The games feature decent female NPCs, but that's not what this is discussion about. They've had over a dozen mainline AssCreed games and not a single one of them featured an exclusively female protagonist. Small wonder some people think they are being cowardly.
No? People have been demanding exclusively female protagonists in a mainline AssCreed for a while, and it's not like Ubisoft somehow couldn't have managed it. Instead they relegated that one to a Vita spin-off.
This notion that "people will never be happy" or "they can't ever win", is basically trying to paint a demand for an exclusively female protagonist as something unreasonable, and that's nonsense.
Equality shouldn't be about trying to even out the scoreboard. I'm not going to chastise a company just because they're finally doing the right thing instead of overcorrecting.
Everybody who thinks there shouldn't be men in this game seems to be forgetting that this means you can play as a gay man. I'm not going to ask Ubi to pull that just because some mistakes they've made in the past.
But, how would having an exclusive female protagonist "overcorrecting"?
Edit to your edit: that is a good point with regards to representation, but you could also argue that they should have simply made an exclusively gay male protagonist in the past, too. ;)
When someone starts off an Assassin's Creed critique asking for coherent lore, I kinda tune out for the rest.
Because the design imperative of this game is player choice. In the weapon options, the skill tree, the armors, the dialog choices. Gender is a perfectly logical choice to make along those lines, so saying "you can only play as this gender" would be needlessly restrictive, only done for the purpose of making a point.
If and when AC becomes a linear game with limited player choice and story control, I will absolutely champion the singular female or gay male player character.
I don't know about needlessly restrictive, really. A lot of RPGs (or action-adventure/RPG-lites with character-building, which I suspect AC:Odyssey will be, but we'll see) feature all these choices but still a pre-set character; The Witcher, Nioh, Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Alpha Protocol, Kingdom Come Deliverance, Horizon Zero Dawn, Vampyr, etc.
Fair enough. I just don't quite agree that preset protagonists should be restricted to those genres.
HZD was a Playstation-exclusive and as such, received a ton of hype and marketing that third-party games generally lack. Marketing teams could also look at GoW and think "well, they're both first-party open-world action games but this one had a male lead and sold a lot better than the one with the female lead."
The truth is that most people (male or female) prefer to play as their own sex and the primary demographic for action games is still men. Making an action game with only a female protagonist runs a greater risk of losing customers than making an action game with only a male protagonist.