Liberal smugness will destroy the left (please read this OP)

Each day I am putting Liberals more to the right with what I see on the internet of the self proclaimed liberals

Smugness is a sign you're probably in an echo chamber.
Doesn't mean you're wrong, you just gotta know your crowd.

Platy said:

Each day I am putting Liberals more to the right with what I see on the internet of the self proclaimed liberals

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Someone in another thread said a lot of users think they're liberals just because they smoke pot and aren't actively raping women.

boxoctosis said:

So, here's an article worth discussing.

https://unherd.com/2018/07/liberal-smugness-will-destroy-left/

A warning, it's confrontational, pointy, and you may not agree. But I think it surfaces a valid point. That the left is essentially cannibalising itself, to the benefit of the right.

It gets plus points for directing you at the excellent works of Thomas Frank.

I particularly liked this paragraph



Goes to a particular bugbear of mine, that we view each other increasingly on purely economic terms , and not on social worth. My contention is that 40 years of neoliberal economics in the West have made us unable to discuss our worth in anything other than economic terms. And in doing so we lose our fundamental humanity.

This isn't another Brexit thread, God forbid, but I'm interested in the views set out here.

What say you?

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It's one terribly dumb paragraph. Brexit doesn't really result in that, no. Like, not at all. That's not how shit works.

i generally go for social democracy rather than liberalism

(said in a way that indicates my european leftist smugness at how americans can't even understand how the rest of the world defines liberalism)

Ah, yes, conservative website argues that left wing people are just too mean when they call Nazis Nazis or when they point out racism.

What middle-class liberals really do need to appreciate is that the difference between their perspective and that of the Trump supporter or the Brexiter is not one of ignorance of facts, but one of basic philosophy. It is not a mistake or ignorance that other people want to live in a very different world with very different values.
The smug sneer that progressives direct towards those who are "too stupid to know what is in their best interest" is premised upon a massive misreading of the situation. The Trump supporter and the Brexiter – and yes, of course I generalise – has a different philosophical perspective. Ideology has not gone away. It has returned in popular form. And that grin of intellectual superiority only feeds the opposition to the liberal perspective

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Trump supporters simply have a different philosophical perspective! Like "it's ok to put thousands of kids into a concentration camp separated from their parents!"

The reason people focused so much on GDP is because the wildly-grasping justification for Brexit (and for American "economic anxiety"-based behavior) is that it is about money, and all of the xenophobia and prejudice is just an unfortunate side effect of chasing the bottom line. There's no racism, it's just the invisible hand of the market happening to prefer a racist-seeming solution.

If you're starting from a premise of, "What if Brexit is a terrible idea financially but I want to do it anyway because I hate immigrants?" that's both much easier to reason about and yet much less reasonable.

Liberals (as in american democrats) and leftists are not the same.

Like, many on the left I know IRL supported Brexit because they stand against EU.

Personally, Im against EU, but have no stance on Brexit or Bremain. I know to little to have a stance on either of them.

nynt9 said:

Ah, yes, conservative website argues that left wing people are just too mean when they call Nazis Nazis or when they point out racism.



Trump supporters simply have a different philosophical perspective! Like "it's ok to put thousands of kids into a concentration camp!"

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This. Same tired ass arguement we've heard countless times before.

Ah yes, we're back to "front row kids" and "back row kids" nonsense.

fantomena said:

Liberals (as in american democrats) and leftists are not the same.

Like, many on the left I know IRL supported Brexit because they stand against EU.

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And those people are fundamentally socially conservative. They're populists.

Lick my testicles.

I will be as smug as I fucking can. I am on the side that believes people can love whomever they want, that everyone in a society as rich as ever has been should be able to get healthcare if they need it, that we should give everyone a chance regardless of circumstances they cannot control, that racists should be shunned as much as possible, and that laws should protect the least of us more than those of us that have the ability do to so regardless of laws. Fuck that.

If you hate, you need to understand you're going to be left behind. Go find a cabin in the woods. Society is going to leave you to rot. We will win. Hate will lose.

liberals are not leftists

rumyhy said:

liberals are not leftists

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.

Why is it impossible to consider that possibility, that some people were indeed prepared to accept a relatively poorer country as a price worth paying for a more independent one? That some things are more important than money?

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Because if you weren't one of the twats who thought Brexit would have meaningful effects on immigrants already in the country, you were one of the other twats who voted for Brexit because twats like Reese-Mogg and Farage were selling the idea of prosperity and the lack of ability to prosper due to being EU members.

NOBODY voted to be worse off, because nobody who was told they would be worse off believed the people who told them Brexit would make them worse off.

EVERYBODY who voted to leave believed the fairy tales they were told, because actual facts only started to emerge in the years after the referendum.

And now all of a sudden after years of hearing "we will get a deal because we are in a position of strength over the EU", all of a sudden after the EU kindly telling us to fuck off with the shitty proposals (if any) we keep making, all of a sudden "no deal" was apparently always the default position.

The idea that people voted to be worse off is a LIE because people who voted for Brexit were calling those who forecast harder times LIARS.

BREXIT WILL NOT DAMAGE THE ECONOMY!!

BUT IF IT DOES ITS BECAUSE I KNEW THATS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN!!!

WE WILL GET A FAVOURABLE DEAL WITH THE EU BECAUSE BRITAIN IS A POWERHOUSE AND THEY MEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEM!!!


BUT IF WE CRAAH OUT WITH NO DEAL ITS OKAY BECAUSE THATS WHAT WE VOTED FOR!!!!


Fuck ALL of this history re-writng.

There certainly are things that don't have to be judged through an economic lens, but something like brexit will have massive impacts on people's lives. Remember during 2008 there was a massive rise in suicides as people lost their jobs/homes/families. Anyone who says they don't see something on that scale through an economic lens are either wealthy enough to not be effected or too stupid to think it will effect them.

Why is it impossible to consider that possibility, that some people were indeed prepared to accept a relatively poorer country as a price worth paying for a more independent one?

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Take it from me, an American - people will proudly live in a poorer backwater cut off from the rest of the world, if it means they get to hold up the racist institutions passed down their culture.

So no, I wouldn't say it's "impossible", I'd say it's disgusting.

When you think it's okay to associate yourself with a party which separates my peoples kids from their parents and puts them into internment camps yeah, I'm going to call you a morally bankrupt idiot and nazi. Sorry not sorry.

Kirblar said:

And those people are fundamentally socially conservative. They're populists.

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Hahahaha.

No.

I know these people well.

Sinfamy said:

Someone in another thread said it right, a lot of users think they're liberals just because they smoke pot and aren't actively raping women.

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That is beyond absurd.

If the threads about James Gunn and Trevor Noah are anything to go by I'm inclined to agree with the author.

The left have accountability, the far right doesn't, and they're using it against the left and it's working so far splendidly.

What middle-class liberals really do need to appreciate is that the difference between their perspective and that of the Trump supporter or the Brexiter is not one of ignorance of facts,

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Yeah, I stopped fucking reading right there.

What tired trash. It is INCONTESTABLE that the vast majority of Trump supported are grotesquely misinformed and ignorant of the most fundamental of facts.

Also, where did this "smugness" horse-shit come from? From all the wing wing/conservative youtube channels I've seen, as well as talking heads, the right is not lacking an iota of smugness. If anything, its infinitely worse, as they spend most of their time in utter mockery of liberals/leftists/SJW/etc

nynt9 said:

Ah, yes, conservative website argues that left wing people are just too mean when they call Nazis Nazis or when they point out racism.



Trump supporters simply have a different philosophical perspective! Like "it's ok to put thousands of kids into a concentration camp separated from their parents!"

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Part of that quote is right but not for the reasons intended by the author.

It is not ignorance.

It is a difference in perspective.

The disdain shouldn't be because they're ignorant, but rather because they fully believe in terrible things.

Edit - stupidity and ignorance may have overlap but they're not identical.

as a Liberal voter, it is true that Bad Faith Lefty Smugness is annoying as fuck.

"oh! they are all teh same! all corrupt only about money"
that's a conversation ender.

"Obama was the same as Trump"
an NDPer told me this this week, not kidding.

"OH!!! I would vote COnservative to see Liberals lose!!!!"
an NDP supporter from Nova Scotia told me this.

It is true that Bad Faith Lefties can ruin it for all liberals.

They would let the world burn just to be proven right.

Smugness...

Left cannibalising itself...

Losing our fundamental humanity...

...But you're interested in the views set out here.

I say it sounds like you actually just want to pick a fight on a largely progressive discussion forum as opposed to exploring differing opinions in a polite and constructive manner. I'm thinking a lot of people here aren't gonna take the bait.

The fact that Democrats have completely lost the rural vote is not good. Democrats used to be competitive there. And since rural areas have a disportionate influence on federal politics, it has diminished the Democrats influence.

My counter point is that idiotic, selfish, bigoted and in general ugly nature and rhetoric conservatives caused the smug/mean/elitist/whatever liberal decades ago.

This reeks of right wing smugness.

But what if people did indeed think that there was something about Brexit that was more important that GDP? Why is it impossible to consider that possibility, that some people were indeed prepared to accept a relatively poorer country as a price worth paying for a more independent one? That some things are more important than money?

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Don't worry, liberals and leftists alike are very aware that there is something the right values more then money.

resent failure

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Fuck this article. Fuck the author. Fuck everything about this.

Liberals aren't Leftists. Leftists hijacked the Liberal flag for themselves because they like the way it sounds to others. Either that or they're just confused.

The snippet you shared is based on a false premise, so I'm not even going to bother with the rest of the article.

boxoctosis said:

This isn't another Brexit thread

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its more of a spiritual sequel

If accepting a poorer country because you hate the EU isn't stupid then I don't know what is.

I'm so sick of the right thinking that the left is weak because of a lack of application of force. Mother fuckers, you think we don't apply force because we're weak? Keep testing.

onadesertedisland said:

Fuck this article. Fuck the author. Fuck everything about this.

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Line editor didn't do their job there.

I don't know if using a paragraph with such am obvious spelling error really does much for your point or credibility of this website.

AztecComplex said:

If the threads about James Gunn and Trevor Noah are anything to go by I'm inclined to agree with the author.

The left have accountability, the far right doesn't, and they're using it against the left and it's working so far splendidly.

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The Trevor Noah stuff is more mixed, but the vast majority of those here and on the 'left' in general were, and continue to be, behind Gunn. The campaign against Gunn was 100% a right wing one.

fantomena said:

Hahahaha.

No.

I know these people well.

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It is. The same reason restricting immigration is the same thing as NIMBYs restricting housing on a local level. It's the reason you get Bernie/Trump overlap in the US. They're the kind that will complain about NAFTA/TPP/Nato/etc because collective self-interest is restricted to an in-group for them. They don't want to share/help with "the out-group", whether it be another race, another country, etc.

I know when I want to get opinions on liberal smugness, I go to websites obsessed with Jordan Peterson.

Kirblar said:

And those people are fundamentally socially conservative. They're populists.

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No they're not. They're idealistic old-style socialists and political voters that jumped at the sight of the EU being attacked, even if the platforms for attack were entirely based in bigotry. That's extremely problematic, agreed, but these leftists are pretty dogmatically opposed to neoliberalism of any kind.

And don't use the meme "purity tests" to defend passivity.

Rensin argues that what is often behind liberal smugness is the philosophical assumption that the difference between people politically is always a difference of knowing various facts, not a difference of ideology.

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wait what

Wasn't one of the key issues with Brexit was that because they were in the EU they were forced to accept refugees and they didn't want to be forced to accept refugees. A country has a right to choose who or what it wants in its country

LukeOP said:

This reeks of right wing smugness.

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smugception

This reeks of a concern troll thread. Close it.

Socialism is the answer. Come my brothers.

The biggest divide I see in America at least, seems to be a lot of conservatives don't realize they are racist/homophobic/transphobic/islamaphobic or what have you. Most conservatives I talk to think because they don't actively hate and want to kill minorities that they aren't racist. To them, thinking that blacksare good at sports, asians are good at math, all blacks droop their pants and listen to rap (except the good ones) , muslims hate our freedom, penis=man vagina = woman are all just facts. They mostly don't even realize they're horribly racist and probably never will.

For example a dude I work with calls middle eastern and indian people "towel heads.". I told him this is racist as fuck. His response? "No it isn't, if I said sand n*****s THAT would be racist."

He thinks he's not racist at all, calls blacks "negroes", the whole nine yards. As long as he isn't a hood wearing, cross burning, nazi who hates all black people, he can't fathom how he could possibly be racist.

Kirblar said:

It is. The same reason restricting immigration is the same thing as NIMBYs restricting housing on a local level. It's the reason you get Bernie/Trump overlap in the US. They're the kind that will complain about NAFTA/TPP/Nato/etc because collective self-interest is restricted to an in-group for them.

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Pretty much the entire left in Norway is against EU and parts of the center. A overwhelming majority of Norwegian are anti-EU. Why? Because we want to control our oil, our fish, our borders and our politics, here in Norway, not in offices in another country. We want to protect our farmers and our local food. We are big on toll and trade protection.

The Left has been smug for 300 years and aside from very recent developments it's worked out pretty well so far.

Kirblar said:

It is. The same reason restricting immigration is the same thing as NIMBYs restricting housing on a local level. It's the reason you get Bernie/Trump overlap in the US. They're the kind that will complain about NAFTA/TPP/Nato/etc because collective self-interest is restricted to an in-group for them. They don't want to share/help with "the out-group", whether it be another race, another country, etc.

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You've failed to address this post on the same issue earlier today.

hydrophilic attack said:

some left parties' opposition to trade may be out of purely protectionist concern, but not all of it. what i described is not about fear of competition, but about wanting to preserve the government's role as employer in the economy. other left-wing concerns with international trade deals, which i didn't bring up, like opposition to ISDS mechanisms, is also not comparable to protectionist concerns

in any case, even if i were to accept the premise that the left's opposition to trade deals was entirely due to protectionist concerns, which should be considered as socially conservative, the social policy axis encompasses a lot more issues than support for trade deals. in fact, if you were to ask posters here to rank social policy positions by importance "trade policy" would likely end up close to the bottom, far below issues like HBTQ rights, abortion rights, immigration, sexual autonomy and norm criticism. all issues were the (western) european hard left parties fall comfortably towards the liberal part of the social issues scale. even if i were to accept your premise that trade is a purely social policy issue, i would still feel comfortable with my placement of (west) european left parties on the social policy scale because of all those other policy issues where they fall firmly on the liberal end

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Liberals are not leftists. And as the rise of fascism continues, especially after this year's midterms (which I think is going to be the first salvo in the coming war for the survival of anything resembling a free America), you will see how many liberals are NOT allies of progress. Many liberals will side with evil, the beginnings of which we see even now in their attempts to police the tone of those fighting back.