• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

鬼作.

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
394
Weren't Bravely Default's dungeons equally unimaginative?
Yeah, I think the devs operate under the mantra that level design is for losers or something. Putting in at least a minimal amount of effort to make at least some unique areas with a tiny bit of imagination can't be that expensive in terms of development cost. But 50 dungeons with not a single feature that makes even one of them memorable? At that point they're just proud to not give a fuck.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
I thought so. I remember BD had the exact same design issue with paths that lead to chests that were pointless. There's a case for trying to adhere to past JRPG conventions. This is not one of them.

BD's were definitely more labyrinthine and elaborate as far as pathing. It felt very old school and the actual artistic design of them was always really simple and repeated throughout. There was an element of keeping track of your vitals throughout the dungeon that some old school games adhered to, also. Octopath seems deliberately designed not to be like that. There's less time just plodding around in the dungeon which means each fight is more important but also it means you're more likely to be replenished for the boss fight so they can design things a bit harder sometimes and really push that aspect. And because the environments themselves are used in obscuring paths and making things unique they couldn't/didn't make the dungeons themselves huge. There's a tradeoff there. If you don't do anything that artistic with the environment then you can focus on pathing, whereas if you really make something look artistically relevant and ground it in the world like Octopath did then creating massive structures and labyrinths becomes much more time consuming. I like the grounded approach they went with. The whole game feel cohesive from town to roads between them to the dungeons. It doesn't feel like disjointed pieces kind of like BD did where you had beautiful towns and then dungeons that felt like a completely different artist did them.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
I barely understand this thinking. I guess it's a kind of completionism and even-leveling urge.

The game plays great with just four characters! You have a large amount of flexibility in how you play.

I've recruited my main party: Alfyn, Therrion, H'annit and Ophilia. The team first set out for H'aanit's Chapter 2 because her quest seemed most urgent, but was stopped by the bodyguard.
They then diverted to Ophelia's Chapter 2, collected three secondary jobs along the way. After that, they were ready to completed H'aanit's Chapter 2 & picked up Olberic along the way.
Now they are headed to the coast for Ophelia's Chapter 3 and probably Alfyn's Chapter 2.

It's just not how most people have been conditioned to play JRPGs or maybe even RPGs in general.
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,053
Not going all out doesn't mean it isn't designed. This is just blatantly stupid. There's legit criticism and then there's this. Simple things are designed.

Welcome to the next 3 years of discussion about Octopath Traveler, where people relentlessly litigate the precise definitions of designed, connected, related, etc. I loved the game now, but I have no idea what the consensus will be by the time OT2 comes out in early 2021.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,459
I'll remember this criticism when the next RPG inevitably has a frustratingly overwrought dungeon that everyone dreads on replays. No one wants The Fade.

One of the only JRPG series to ever do dungeon puzzles well was Golden Sun. Now people clamor for them over simplicity with thoughtfully hidden treasures? I do believe Octopath could have used more exceptional dungeons, in the same way that Skyrim could have, but they're clearly carefully designed as individually distinct and visually captivating dioramas.

I'd rather have a few dungeons that made for dynamic scenarios for plot-related reasons, like the Floating Continent of FFVI, but leave gimmicks at the door, please. Octopath does very well in cutting to the chase of what gameplay elements are satisfying in JRPGs: combat, exploration, secrets, treasure, creativity.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
Welcome to the next 3 years of discussion about Octopath Traveler, where people relentlessly litigate the precise definitions of designed, connected, related, etc. I loved the game now, but I have no idea what the consensus will be by the time OT2 comes out in early 2021.

I hope bad faith hyperbole that lacks any real grasp of word meanings isn't what we discuss about the game. There's plenty to talk about with regard to the choices they made, some good and some bad. Talking dungeon design choices and the good and bad of what they did and where they could go is a discussion. "They didn't design it at all" is not a discussion. It's just a lie.
 

DTC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,582
I don't really get people who post multiple times in threads to complain about games they didn't enjoy. It's fine to not enjoy something, it's just bizarre behavior to want to relive the experiences of games you didn't enjoy. If I don't enjoy a game, I just move onto one of the many other things I do enjoy in life.

Not that criticism is bad or anything, it's just weird to keep on reliving something you don't enjoy and going back to it. I can't think of many times where I went to a thread of a game I didn't enjoy, cuz if I didn't enjoy it, why would I want to remind myself of it again?
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
Not liking something about the game doesn't mean you don't enjoy the game overall, I think it's a great game yet I find the structure of the chapters to be really repetitive.
 

coconut gun

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
682
but how does werner stab himself if i just looked his sword from his body????

thinking emoji
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
but how does werner stab himself if i just looked his sword from his body????

thinking emoji

How does Primrose not use an Olive of Life on her friend? :). Suspension of disbelief is hard in this game sometimes.

I hope bad faith hyperbole that lacks any real grasp of word meanings isn't what we discuss about the game. There's plenty to talk about with regard to the choices they made, some good and some bad. Talking dungeon design choices and the good and bad of what they did and where they could go is a discussion. "They didn't design it at all" is not a discussion. It's just a lie.

I think we can say people that are stating their opinions like that are making a point through hyperbole.

The dungeon design is one of the weakest parts of the game.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
I think we can say people that are stating their opinions like that are making a point through hyperbole.

Saying they're not designed is not an opinion. He wasn't stating he disliked the design. He wasn't stating it was poorly designed or weakly designed. He was saying it flat out was not designed. That's not a point through hyperbole. That's just spouting nonsense. As I've said before, there's plenty to actually discuss on the dungeon design and what their choices were and what they could/should do. Stating they didn't design it isn't a discussion.
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
Wow, Olberic's chapter 3 was surprisingly good.
The moment the challenge window pops up after hearing Erhardt's story, damn.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,960
This game would be great for one-handed play if they ever wanted to implement it. Just let the right thumbstick control movement and selection (and set both triggers to more/less bp respectively) and it would be good to go.
 

Firemind

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,529
I'll remember this criticism when the next RPG inevitably has a frustratingly overwrought dungeon that everyone dreads on replays. No one wants The Fade.

One of the only JRPG series to ever do dungeon puzzles well was Golden Sun. Now people clamor for them over simplicity with thoughtfully hidden treasures? I do believe Octopath could have used more exceptional dungeons, in the same way that Skyrim could have, but they're clearly carefully designed as individually distinct and visually captivating dioramas.

I'd rather have a few dungeons that made for dynamic scenarios for plot-related reasons, like the Floating Continent of FFVI, but leave gimmicks at the door, please. Octopath does very well in cutting to the chase of what gameplay elements are satisfying in JRPGs: combat, exploration, secrets, treasure, creativity.
When the best treasure is found in towns and from monster drops, then maybe you shouldn't have treasure in dungeons at all. At least not the quantity it has now. You already know the normal looking chests are going to be trash. Most of the hidden chests in towns and the overworld are trash. The purple chests are gated by one character you might not have in your party. Dungeon design is arguable, especially on a hybrid console. The chests are just bad game design. There's no defending that.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
When the best treasure is found in towns and from monster drops, then maybe you shouldn't have treasure in dungeons at all. At least not the quantity it has now. You already know the normal looking chests are going to be trash. Most of the hidden chests in towns and the overworld are trash. The purple chests are gated by one character you might not have in your party. Dungeon design is arguable, especially on a hybrid console. The chests are just bad game design. There's no defending that.

A lot of the chests chapter 3 onwards are worth the effort in dungeons. Usually the harder the pathing to find it or the more out of the way it is, the better the item is. There's a lot of really good stuff in dungeons even ignoring the purple chests.

Unfortunately the rest of them is gated by Therion and I don't agree with that as a design choice.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,459
When the best treasure is found in towns and from monster drops, then maybe you shouldn't have treasure in dungeons at all. At least not the quantity it has now. You already know the normal looking chests are going to be trash. Most of the hidden chests in towns and the overworld are trash. The purple chests are gated by one character you might not have in your party. Dungeon design is arguable, especially on a hybrid console. The chests are just bad game design. There's no defending that.

There's plenty of good treasure in dungeons. The game isn't balanced around every player savescumming 3% steals or 2% drop rates. That would be bad design, but unless you want to take up an anti-scumming measure like XB2's controversial auto-saving with one manual save slot, there's little to be done.

I think purple chests should have just required the thief job on a character, but I understand that their inclusion isn't for OCD players—it's to balance out the fact that neither Tressa nor Therion have a unique in-combat command/function, and so they benefit from an additional out-of-combat effect that's fitting for their job: finding money and finding treasure.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
I think my suggestion would be like let Therion be the one to obtain keys to open those chests. So you'll still need to use him to get those keys, but you don't need to bring him to dungeons to open the chests.
 

鬼作.

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
394
Saying they're not designed is not an opinion. He wasn't stating he disliked the design. He wasn't stating it was poorly designed or weakly designed. He was saying it flat out was not designed. That's not a point through hyperbole. That's just spouting nonsense. As I've said before, there's plenty to actually discuss on the dungeon design and what their choices were and what they could/should do. Stating they didn't design it isn't a discussion.
Sue me, I guess. My threshold to consider something to be designed and not just stitched together like a road network in a game of Settlers of Catan seems to be higher than yours. "How could you ever claim they were not designed? There are paths! And those paths vary in length!"

Well I'm convinced.
 

DTC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,582
Not liking something about the game doesn't mean you don't enjoy the game overall, I think it's a great game yet I find the structure of the chapters to be really repetitive.

I'm not talking about that. I have plenty of criticisms of this game too (beyond the repetitive chapters, I feel like certain strategies are really overpowered and enemies should be doing more damage with their single target attacks) - I'm talking about people who just don't like a game in general, but still feel the need to post a bunch of times in every thread of that game. I mean, if you don't like a game, why relive it and seek out experiencing more of it? If I don't like something, I move onto a million other enjoyable activities I could be doing instead.

I'm surprised you ended up liking the game. I know you had a lot of concerns with it before it came out. What surprised you the most about the game / what did you enjoy the most?
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
Sue me, I guess. My threshold to consider something to be designed and not just stitched together like a road network in a game of Settlers of Catan seems to be higher than yours. "How could you ever claim they were not designed? There are paths! And those paths vary in length!"

Well I'm convinced.

My threshold to consider something to be designed is whether it was designed.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
Actually I would argue that the visual pathing puzzles in the dungeons in this game is great. Couple of times I had to scratch my head and wonder how to get to a chest. There's always an obvious reward to solving it and you're not doing it just because you have to to progress. And because you're not progression gated by those puzzles, some people don't think them as puzzles and I think that's just silly and being conditioned by what jrpgs usually do.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,275
Canada
Okay what/who is the most interesting story/character to start with?

That's really up to you. Ideally you'll wanna start with a character who has multiple weapons/spells to get a head start on the combat system but really anyone is fine. I started with Olberic so I had a tank with two weapons right away. In terms of story, Primrose gets really dark really fast and I also liked Alfyn's intro. Can't go wrong with Therion either, his lockpicking and steal abilities are extremely useful. The stories are pretty straight forward and play to their tropes but combined with the stellar music, can get quite emotional at times.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
I'm surprised you ended up liking the game. I know you had a lot of concerns with it before it came out. What surprised you the most about the game / what did you enjoy the most?
My main concern was the lack of party interactions since I've never played a game like this, I actually ended up not even bothered by it after playing the game, the strongest thing about the game is the combat, I don't even like turn based combat but I loved it in this game, it is more strategic than I thought. Music, the world, visuals and some stories are great too.
 

Deleted member 8674

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,240
That's really up to you. Ideally you'll wanna start with a character who has multiple weapons/spells to get a head start on the combat system but really anyone is fine. I started with Olberic so I had a tank with two weapons right away. In terms of story, Primrose gets really dark really fast and I also liked Alfyn's intro. Can't go wrong with Therion either, his lockpicking and steal abilities are extremely useful. The stories are pretty straight forward and play to their tropes but combined with the stellar music, can get quite emotional at times.

Thank you. I think i'll start with Alfyn.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,102
Actually I would argue that the visual pathing puzzles in the dungeons in this game is great. Couple of times I had to scratch my head and wonder how to get to a chest. There's always an obvious reward to solving it and you're not doing it just because you have to to progress. And because you're not progression gated by those puzzles, some people don't think them as puzzles and I think that's just silly and being conditioned by what jrpgs usually do.

Right, I really like how they did that. The design definitely works hand in hand with the visual and artistic style. Each dungeon and map was designed as a diorama much like the towns. Unlike a lot of RPGs that may as well be a dot on a map with Octopath you're really using your eyes to examine the art presented to you in order to progress.

Yes they could probably do a lot more complex things, but I do like how streamlined things are. It doesn't fuck around and lets you get right to the combat which is obviously more the focus than dungeon crawling. Some RPGs are dungeon crawlers and others aren't. As I've said before I like how cohesive it makes things. The world feels whole.
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,198
New Jersey
I don't really get people who post multiple times in threads to complain about games they didn't enjoy. It's fine to not enjoy something, it's just bizarre behavior to want to relive the experiences of games you didn't enjoy. If I don't enjoy a game, I just move onto one of the many other things I do enjoy in life.

Not that criticism is bad or anything, it's just weird to keep on reliving something you don't enjoy and going back to it. I can't think of many times where I went to a thread of a game I didn't enjoy, cuz if I didn't enjoy it, why would I want to remind myself of it again?
Eh, this is a really unfruitful line of thinking. OTs aren't meant to be echo chambers and there's nothing wrong with posting negative thoughts here. People don't "need to move on" from discussing something even if they dislike it.
 

leafcutter

Member
Feb 14, 2018
1,219
I have come to a crossroads with this game and I need some quick advice please. When I first got the game, I figured I'd do two playthroughs, only getting four characters in each. Right now my two files are just past the chapter 1s for all the characters. Basically it's an OCTO file and a PATH file.

The problem is, I'm now faced with the amount of grinding I will have to do in both games in order to get to the next chapter. I'm assuming this grinding wouldn't be required if I were to get all eight characters in one game. Is this going to turn into a massive headache? Should I just get the remaining four characters on my first game and ditch the second file? I'm only about 10hrs in on one game, and 7hrs on the other. So I'd like to decide before I invest more time.

Any thoughts?
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,198
New Jersey
Actually I would argue that the visual pathing puzzles in the dungeons in this game is great. Couple of times I had to scratch my head and wonder how to get to a chest. There's always an obvious reward to solving it and you're not doing it just because you have to to progress. And because you're not progression gated by those puzzles, some people don't think them as puzzles and I think that's just silly and being conditioned by what jrpgs usually do.
The bigger problem is that the vast majority of chests in this game contain trash or items that are so easily acquired that they have little value. I pretty much stopped bothering to spend effort on chests after a while. Too much of the itemization in the game is gated behind steal/purchase.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
The bigger problem is that the vast majority of chests in this game contain trash or items that are so easily acquired that they have little value. I pretty much stopped bothering to spend effort on chests after a while. Too much of the itemization in the game is gated behind steal/purchase.

Like we just said on the same page, you're wrong. Majority of my chapter 4 gearing up is looking for chests in dungeons.
 

Disclaimer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,459
I have come to a crossroads with this game and I need some quick advice please. When I first got the game, I figured I'd do two playthroughs, only getting four characters in each. Right now my two files are just past the chapter 1s for all the characters. Basically it's an OCTO file and a PATH file.

The problem is, I'm now faced with the amount of grinding I will have to do in both games in order to get to the next chapter. I'm assuming this grinding wouldn't be required if I were to get all eight characters in one game. Is this going to turn into a massive headache? Should I just get the remaining four characters on my first game and ditch the second file? I'm only about 10hrs in on one game, and 7hrs on the other. So I'd like to decide before I invest more time.

Any thoughts?

First, I'd recommend instead doing those two playthroughs on the same file, because the postgame requires you to complete and use all eight characters. Naturally, because your main character is locked in your party until you complete their full story, you won't be able to do a concurrent 4 x 4 run, but you'd be able to do your initial four, then the next four after completing theirs.

Second, as to grinding: it isn't necessary. Recommended levels and danger levels are less indicative of what level you should be, and more indicative of what your equipment should be like, or if you're using the right strategy. Equipment far exceeds level ups in stat gains. If you did a run of 4 characters after completing the other 4, your second group would actually be almost as powerful with the endgame equipment, just having less HP and fewer abilities/passives from JP accruement.

As long as you unlock subjobs after/during CH1, and explore some optional dungeons, you'll be more than keeping up with your first group's suggested levels, anyway.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
I juat lost 30k JP and a boatload of xp on a "barely suvive" into " blast" dance. Ugh
 

Clix

Banned
So, question. Trying to think party comps here.

Would: Tressa, Cyrus, Ophelia, Therion be viable?

I am thinking for having my Team One and Team Two.

1- Tressa/Thief or Warrior
2- Cyrus/Merchant
3- Ophelia/Dancer
4- Therion/Warrior or Hunter

1- Primrose/Scholar or Thief
2- Alf/Cleric
3- H'aanit/Warrior
4- Olberic/Apothecary or Hunter

Or should I shuffle around a bit?

Swap Therion with H'aanit or Olberic. And find a way to always have Cyrus on my team no matter what?
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
That's an inefficient way to gear up, but even so, chests with useful equipment are a tiny fraction of the chests in the game.

You're still wrong, most of my best weapons and armor have come from chests in late game dungeons.

Can you avoid them by stealing the 3% weapons from NPCs in town? Yeah I suppose so, I haven't really done any save scumming or deliberately looking for NPCs to level up Therion's steal. So you're able to choose what you want to do to gear up and that's great. Just because you chose one option over the other doesn't mean the one you didn't choose suck. You said it yourself, you have avoided the chests, so how do you know if they're good or not?
 

Basileus777

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,198
New Jersey
You're still wrong, most of my best weapons and armor have come from chests in late game dungeons.

Can you avoid them by stealing the 3% weapons from NPCs in town? Yeah I suppose so, I haven't really done any save scumming or deliberately looking for NPCs to level up Therion's steal. So you're able to choose what you want to do to gear up and that's great. Just because you chose one option over the other doesn't mean the one you didn't choose suck. You said it yourself, you have avoided the chests, how do you know if they're good or not?
I've barely used Therion and I hate saves scumming. But Tressa provides enough money that you can just buy most of what you need.
 

Saint-14

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
14,477
So, question. Trying to think party comps here.

Would: Tressa, Cyrus, Ophelia, Therion be viable?

I am thinking for having my Team One and Team Two.

1- Tressa/Thief or Warrior
2- Cyrus/Merchant
3- Ophelia/Dancer
4- Therion/Warrior or Hunter

1- Primrose/Scholar or Thief
2- Alf/Cleric
3- H'aanit/Warrior
4- Olberic/Apothecary or Hunter

Or should I shuffle around a bit?

Swap Therion with H'aanit or Olberic. And find a way to always have Cyrus on my team no matter what?
You don't want Tressa and Therion in the same team since their field skill is similar, I'd swap one for Olberic and get his divine skill asap, it does wonders against bosses until you get that secret job.
 

leafcutter

Member
Feb 14, 2018
1,219
First, I'd recommend instead doing those two playthroughs on the same file, because the postgame requires you to complete and use all eight characters. Naturally, because your main character is locked in your party until you complete their full story, you won't be able to do a concurrent 4 x 4 run, but you'd be able to do your initial four, then the next four after completing theirs.

Second, as to grinding: it isn't necessary. Recommended levels and danger levels are less indicative of what level you should be, and more indicative of what your equipment should be like, or if you're using the right strategy. Equipment far exceeds level ups in stat gains. If you did a run of 4 characters after completing the other 4, your second group would actually be almost as powerful with the endgame equipment, just having less HP and fewer abilities/passives from JP accruement.

As long as you unlock subjobs after/during CH1, and explore some optional dungeons, you'll be more than keeping up with your first group's suggested levels, anyway.

Thanks, I didn't know about the post game requirements! So would it be better to do all four chapters for four characters and then start with the other four, or swap out to do them all at roughly the same time? Or does that not really matter...