Internal company forums. Private group chats. Developer forums.Fucking exactly haha. I wonder where him and his industry friends feel "safe" on the internet.
Not anywhere out of touch consumers can reach you, that's for sure.
Internal company forums. Private group chats. Developer forums.Fucking exactly haha. I wonder where him and his industry friends feel "safe" on the internet.
What words are you wanting to use and not be banned for in your capacity to change?
That's entirely because of what movies he made and could still make.
We already have this with gender and users routinely ignore it and assume everyone is a man.
I think there are a looot of people on this site that have not learned how to properly express their emotions or opinions. The amount of grown adults pitching temper tantrums on gaming side over any little thing that doesn't validate their opinion, the constant need for everything to be framed as "best ever" vs "trash" (seriously, pay attention to how often threads pop up titled "X is the best thing ever/in history/etc." for no reason), and the framing of differing opinions as either intentionally malicious or deranged say a lot to how much effort a lot of posters put into their comments, and makes me wary of how they'd behave in a thread like, for instance, this one.I think a lot of them genuinely believe they are treating everyone the same. That may even be true in some cases, but treating everyone the same is not good enough in a lot of situations where more sensitivity is required. This is where a lot of dudes have issues and can't reconcile with the simultaneous belief that everyone is supposed to be equal or whatever. I think a lot of these people are posting in good faith (as in, they sincerely believe what they write and aren't just trying to troll or get a rise out of people). Not that everyone should feel obligated to coddle or educate them, of course.
You seem to be operating under a misconception here. This isn't actually a forum for everyone. It's actually maintained as a rehabilitation school for wayward bigots, run entirely by reluctant volunteers. /s
There is a lot of disagreements, but the disagreements should be discussed between people from the same group, a white dude has no perspective on either racism or sexism, so there shouldn't be any substance in them disagreeing with a woman on what is considered sexist, or a non-white person on what is considered racist.
EDIT: I'm not saying they shouldn't participate, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't expect to overrule and/or dominate the discussion.
That's how privilege works, people in privileged positions don't have the perspective to see bigotry directed towards them or an adjacent group, and if a person is in that position and is genuine in wanting to improve, they need to listen to people, if that person was called racist, oftentimes it's because they said something racist, even if it was unintentional, so that person has the choice of either A) Be defensive, or B) Apologize, and google why what they said is considered racist, hopefully they can avoid saying something racist in the future.
So in this thread about women wanting to be treated respectfully, somehow the discussion has turned to how harsh the punishments are for people who don't.
i mean i assume you came into this thread to express some constructive criticism?Myself? Nothing. I barely post anyway and prefer to just read the forum.
Were you hoping I'd say something else?
You have some really damn thick nostalgia goggles for GAF moderationSince the thread is already derailed, gonna say the moderation on the site is a joke. Anyone can ban clear cut shitposting/trolling I'm not citing that, even GAF for all it's faults banned shitposting on the spot proper (ERA does a decent job in this aspect). Bigots getting away with saying dumb shit just because they post with no profanity and use nuanced word play to make it not seem obvious. When someone confronts or calls them out on their shit, that said user gets banned/warning... good stuff.
100% agreed. Some bans, especially some of those by its owner were insulting to witness.You have some really damn thick nostalgia goggles for GAF moderation
Okay, so what is a proper amount of minorities saying they feel uncomfortable for you to be concerned? How many have already left? How many are just tired of speaking out? You also need to understand what you're saying is used to dismiss concerns for those populations all the time.
What other side? If you mean non-minority posters, well, we have it pretty good overall and I don't think anyone needs to cater to us.
Example?
I would very much like an example of this as well if you don't mind.
Could you please ask a moderator if this is the case? There are like 20 people on the staff, I'm sure if this is the case one of them will agree with you, otherwise it would be pretty ridiculous to believe that that many people have a list somewhere that they have all agreed to that protects certain users from moderator action at the expense of other users, and the entire staff agrees on everyone on that list. I guarantee that is not a thing.
i mean i assume you came into this thread to express some constructive criticism?
if you're not going to substantiate which specific "certain topics" that "are essentially verboten" according to "your friends" then what could anyone do with that information? how could anyone engage with it, whether to agree or disagree?
i was indeed hoping that you would contribute to the discussion rather than just whine
You have some really damn thick nostalgia goggles for GAF moderation
Okay, well I'm sorry to give you more to respond to, but could you expand on why you believe it is appropriate for you to tell minorities on the forum(women in the case of this thread) that they need to calm down, or to dismiss their concerns in that way?Everyone needs to just chill out a little. Not everything is a secret dogwhistle for the alt-right who are running a psyop to take down the forum from the inside. Sometimes people just don't think before they speak, or disagree with what the majority thinks. As long as it's not some heinous shit (which I have seen a few examples of, and which totally deserves a ban) we should all just calm down a little.
Ah okay, sorry, I misread what you said.Huh? I was saying that any site can do the "easy" bans... even GAF... their mod's were the worst though.
What I'm saying is that ERA does a terrible job at giving the wrong warnings to the wrong people. Bigots post their opinion in a nice constructed post, someone else comes in a little hostile to confront, the person who confronted gets hit with a warning/ban.
i mean i assume you came into this thread to express some constructive criticism?
if you're not going to substantiate which specific "certain topics" that "are essentially verboten" according to "your friends" then what could anyone do with that information? how could anyone engage with it, whether to agree or disagree?
i was indeed hoping that you would contribute to the discussion rather than just whine
i really dont know what anyone is expecting from him. He has "game dev friends" that want a place that will tolerate typical game dev locker room talk
Literally just mentally play out a scenario and it will be more engaging. We dont need to do it again.
Fair question.
I don't know what my friends and colleagues are thinking, so I'll speak for myself here.
Everyone needs to just chill out a little. Not everything is a secret dogwhistle for the alt-right who are running a psyop to take down the forum from the inside. Sometimes people just don't think before they speak, or disagree with what the majority thinks. As long as it's not some heinous shit (which I have seen a few examples of, and which totally deserves a ban) we should all just calm down a little.
I do appreciate that you're willing to have this conversation with me.
i really dont know what anyone is expecting from him. He has "game dev friends" that want a place that will tolerate typical game dev locker room talk
Literally just mentally play out a scenario and it will be more engaging. We dont need to do it again.
Thank you Skyrim, I appreciate it.And RedMercury, I apologize. I haven't seen your comment. I got slammed with notifications and clearly missed some. I'll go back to see if I can find it.
There are lots of amazing posts here (Her Hero Is Gone, OPs, excelsior's input to name a few); it saddens me to read plenty of other women who no longer feel welcome here.
I get it.
Plenty of other drive-by posting and dishonest whatabouting that I've seen in a myriad of other threads in the weeks following the exodus from the other site. The constant negativity of the etcera forum, the nonstop news threads, then other threads where the only reason that it seems they exist is to criticize public figures or some sort of lowkey concern trolling. I don't know when specifically the 'fun'/honeymoon period ended for me - a couple of months ago? I no longer read ERA since so many threads get derailed and it seems that many posters just make the same arguments, only they have another name. I check Etcera once a week, if that, since I've cut down on my media + news consumption to lighten my mood.
I'm saddened to see that the more things change (goodbye GAF), that they stay the same (hello ERA). Stricter moderation would be nice but I don't know if it's feasible. It seems that the whole internet is just turning into more shit; maybe I just haven't found the good part where everyone else is. Or maybe they've all checked out and are living in the real world? ERA can improve with love, care and more inclusivity and less tolerance for bullshitting. It's on a volunteer-basis though. Day-to-day live can be draining, and then to come onto Etcera and see gaslighting and dishonest posting is even more so.
I really appreciate all the real posting and input from those who genuinely care and many kudos to you Persephone for starting this conversation. Hoping for the best for ERA going forward and look forward to seeing what the moderators come up with.
Understandable. A niche of a niche corner for like-minded friends/coworkers when compared to a general public forum like this one.Internal company forums. Private group chats. Developer forums.
Not anywhere out of touch consumers can reach you, that's for sure.
I've seen the same but the complaints tend to be about the userbase and *not* harsh moderation. Complaints about how racist and sexist things can get. Complaints about how hyperbolic people get. Complaints on how jumpy people are(related to everything. not just social issues like people try to pretend). They see era the same as youtube "don't scroll down, don't read the comments".I know many people, industry and otherwise, who refuse to post here because it's seen as a hostile and unwelcoming environment.
In a scenario like that, sexism or racism is absolutely the root cause, or at least one of the causes. I wouldn't necessarily go as far to say bigotry on one case alone, I think that would depend on the severity of the conversation and opinion held.Genuine question - is a lack of empathy necessarily always sexism/racism (or otherwise bigotry)? I wonder if there are instances where someone is not sexist, but is failing to empathize on some matters and thus see them as insignificant or an annoyance. Then when they get called an extreme word like sexist, they get upset because they believe they're being accused of hating women.
I'm not attempting to defend people that lack empathy, but am trying to deconstruct the typical conversation loop. Hopefully that's not "just asking questions", honestly can't tell sometimes :P
There's just a pretty prominent reoccurring theme amongsy "verboten" subjects here, something the games industry has a lot of trouble with.What "locker room talk" is that? What, exactly, do you think we all want to say but are too scared to?
And RedMercury, I apologize. I haven't seen your comment. I got slammed with notifications and clearly missed some. I'll go back to see if I can find it.
Everyone needs to just chill out a little. Not everything is a secret dogwhistle for the alt-right who are running a psyop to take down the forum from the inside.
GAF had the benefit of when bigots were banned they were gone for weeks and months and juniors were perm'd. But I'm def glad the report system here allows people to fill in the cracks where moderators aren'tAh okay, sorry, I misread what you said.
That being sad bigots skirting warnings/bans because of how they word their posts isn't really an Era only problem either. That was a problem that existed on GAF for the longest time too and it was easier to get away with it there because the reporting system there was nonexistent .
Assuming the best is luxury not afforded to many.
If Skyrim wasn't being so vague there would be no room for misinterpretation.What is stopping you from not assuming the worst in this particular scenario?
There is a lot of disagreements, but the disagreements should be discussed between people from the same group, a white dude has no perspective on either racism or sexism, so there shouldn't be any substance in them disagreeing with a woman on what is considered sexist, or a non-white person on what is considered racist.
EDIT: I'm not saying they shouldn't participate, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't expect to overrule and/or dominate the discussion.
I do feel very welcome in this forum as a woman. When compared to other places to discuss videogames it almost feels like heaven, it is pretty progressive. Still, I don't feel safe enough to state my gender openly but maybe that's just me.
If Skyrim wasn't being so vague there would be no room for misinterpretation.
i feel like, if people feel like they are being called out for the views they are expressing, or for HOW they are expressing them, maybe they should do what the subject of this thread is about and try to understand the concerns of marginalized people, rather than getting defensive or downplaying them. if what you're saying makes people feel like you have bad intentions, then maybe you should try to learn why that is so you can communicate more clearly in the future, or maybe even evolve your views, no?Fair question.
I don't know what my friends and colleagues are thinking, so I'll speak for myself here.
Everyone needs to just chill out a little. Not everything is a secret dogwhistle for the alt-right who are running a psyop to take down the forum from the inside. Sometimes people just don't think before they speak, or disagree with what the majority thinks. As long as it's not some heinous shit (which I have seen a few examples of, and which totally deserves a ban) we should all just calm down a little.
I do appreciate that you're willing to have this conversation with me.
And consequently, not everything is an evil conspiracy by evil women/minorities against your friends. Sometimes, these things are just actions that hurt people that aren't like you and your friends, and it would be nice if the first reaction to those wasn't just "they ought to calm down" but "maybe they have a point", you know?
Why should topics like "please don't treat women in a sexist way" be essentially verboten?
These are serious questions, by the way. I'm not trying to gotcha you, but just try to see it from another perspective here. This is a thread where the OP (and many other women) pointed out that they hate being silenced and told to shut up and calm down. And yet, the response often is "keep quiet" which is somewhat disheartening when the topic is already silencing women, and the proposed solution is women chilling out, ie... ...being silenced.
That kinda doesn't seem to solve the problem brought up by the OP, it makes it worse and is, in fact, the source of the problem.
Because this kind of topics has a history of bad faith posters,And that's why some very enthusiastic posters are asking for clarification. I'm still not seeing why a post lacking in concrete examples opens the doors to assuming the worst of the poster.
I'm happy to read that you feel welcome here.
I know that a lot of the administration here are women, and I know that their stated intent has been and will always be for Era to be an inclusive, and safe forum for people to share their views and engage in civil discourse. Thing is, it doesn't always happen, and the moderators do err on the side of caution. Moderation is a moving target, and they aren't always going to nail it -- what matters is more hits than misses, and while as a male I know that I am not always going to be cognizant of what others are seeing and feeling on this forum, but I know a lot of people on this forum are absolutely a credit to it and for those who are posting with every intention of making this place better and keeping it to a high standard are appreciated. I realize it sounds sappy and all, but a big thanks should go out to all the women posters of Era; they have it harder, they know it, but their presence here is absolutely essential to making this forum the best it can be. So thanks.
I hope you can find my post for later, I restated it a couple times but will also give you a link to it so you can save it https://www.resetera.com/threads/eras-woman-problem-read-op.57534/page-39#post-10774110Anyway, I have work to do so I may not be able to post as much for the next few hours. But I do appreciate everyone who took the time to engage with me.
Because this kind of topics has a history of bad faith posters,
you may have the luxury to consider this behavior harmless but I'd say that's your perspective.
that's a report linkI hope you can find my post for later, I restated it a couple times but will also give you a link to it so you can save it https://www.resetera.com/posts/10774110/report