Sounds like game development studios and other tech companies. Hmmmmm
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Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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Sounds like game development studios and other tech companies. Hmmmmm
I think part of the problem is that a large majority just assumes they are talking to another guy on here when having a discussion.
If a concept as simple as "You didn't experience X, thus listen to the people that did" is so outrageous to them, then they're not genuine about their claim that they're not sexist or racist.
You're making this more complicated than it is.
It's literally just... don't be a bigot. It's really not that hard. Hell, I'm a poster that happens to consume a lot of problematic shit and even hangs out in places full of people who would instantly get banned if they posted here, and you know, I somehow manage to get by just fine because I know how to not be a bigot.
It's not like the warnings and bans are completely opaque, either. The messages are usually pretty descriptive of what got people banned, so what's so incredibly difficult about actually READING the warnings and figuring it out from there? The vagueness with which you're describing the circumstances that get people banned, on the other hand, suggests to me that you're not actually comprehending what is being said, so...
What "accepted opinions" are you referring to exactly? That women or trans individuals or whatever other minorities are people and deserve basic respect? If I know specifically what you are arguing against I could maybe shed some light. People who just misunderstand are not banned here, the staff I believe always leans towards giving chances to people to learn and grow, but if someone chooses to double down after being told why they are wrong there is no further reason for the to participate.
And there is nothing inherently wrong with judgement, if someone slapped you in the face for no reason you would say "wow that person is a jerk to do that", and you would be right, the same way you can look at someone who is racist or bigoted and say "wow that person is a jerk to think like that or say that".
Haha too true. Part of why I changed majors away from game dev stuff. I couldn't even handle having classes with some of these guys.
I've also noticed this on here a lot as well. How hard is it to click on a fucking avatar and see if they've listed their gender, honestly?
They (and you) should do this:
You're asking to challenge, rather than understand, in your very post. You're implying by that challenge that the issue itself isn't valid.
Seriously, the wording "shut up and listen" may seem harsh, but TRY IT. I learn more by shutting up and listening than I do by quibbling.
People got black belts in pretending context doesn't exist
The point is about the undercurrent of misogyny present in both threads where women are not considered worthy of respect like any other decent human beings.
I for example, never click on a profile unless I'm about to add someone to the ignore list.
I think this thread kind of turned into an example of some of the issues with the forum, and social media in general really, that lead to people feeling the way OP does. The majority of posters, myself included, have a tendency to jump on the stupidest posts for the easy win, when the best thing to do for the overall quality of conversation would be to ignore and report so that the mods can deal with them, without the thread going off the rails. Obviously, this requires faith that the mods will deal with them, but I think they do more often than not here.
I also feel some of us need to remember where we are too. This is just an internet forum and very little that gets said or done here has much consequence when all is said and done. Even as one of the bigger forums, we are still taking about a smallish community in the grand scheme of things. Getting irate and attacking every perceived injustice is only going to raise your own blood pressure and cause frustration. We know its virtually impossible to change a real bigots mind, so why waste energy on them at the cost of your mental well-being? The real bad posters will end up getting themselves banned eventually and they won't care. They'll just move on to the next forum, or go back to their kind to whine about how awful Era is. Fuck em and concentrate efforts on the posters who are coming here to learn and act in good faith, whose mindsets can be changed for the better.
I also feel some of us need to remember where we are too. This is just an internet forum and very little that gets said or done here has much consequence when all is said and done. Even as one of the bigger forums, we are still taking about a smallish community in the grand scheme of things. Getting irate and attacking every perceived injustice is only going to raise your own blood pressure and cause frustration. We know its virtually impossible to change a real bigots mind, so why waste energy on them at the cost of your mental well-being? The real bad posters will end up getting themselves banned eventually and they won't care. They'll just move on to the next forum, or go back to their kind to whine about how awful Era is. Fuck em and concentrate efforts on the posters who are coming here to learn and act in good faith, whose mindsets can be changed for the better.
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I was a fan of someone trying to "gotcha!" me by pointing out my profile says "female"
I'm not even gonna lie, I avoid threads involving the US Democratic party because many posters here do not know how to handle criticisms of it.
I want elaboration from these people you know on the other parts, though. I want to know specifically what line they're talking about towing, what dissent they felt was unfairly punished. In my experience, as has been shown in this thread, most of the time people end up being mad about stuff like this because they want to freely post knee-jerk reactions without thinking about how it affects others.
I agree. Assuming the worst about other posters / arguing in bad faith / strawmanning others also fall under the umbrella of "rude shit," though. Yet it often gets a pass from us as long as we agree with the prevailing opinion.
I've been trying lately, but honestly don't feel comfortable posting here.
I came from a much more progressive site that was open to women, minorities and LGTBQ. Era is not even close.
Despite the reason this board was formed, from my perspective it feels very much the same as the old board.
Except now, I not only have to deal with misogynist, you do have to deal with uber progressives that will label you bad at the drop of a hat.
My husband doesn't post anymore either- he feels that he would misinterpreted. We all used terrible words in the past, and have grown out of our stupid phase. But many progressive here don't believe people can change.
The moderates hearts may be in the right place, but this site does need more work.
I came from a much more progressive site that was open to women, minorities and LGTBQ. Era is not even close.
Despite the reason this board was formed, from my perspective it feels very much the same as the old board.
Except now, I not only have to deal with misogynist, you do have to deal with uber progressives that will label you bad at the drop of a hat.
My husband doesn't post anymore either- he feels that he would misinterpreted. We all used terrible words in the past, and have grown out of our stupid phase. But many progressive here don't believe people can change.
The moderates hearts may be in the right place, but this site does need more work.
Genuine question - is a lack of empathy necessarily always sexism/racism (or otherwise bigotry)? I wonder if there are instances where someone is not sexist, but is failing to empathize on some matters and thus see them as insignificant or an annoyance. Then when they get called an extreme word like sexist, they get upset because they believe they're being accused of hating women.
I'm not attempting to defend people that lack empathy, but am trying to deconstruct the typical conversation loop. Hopefully that's not "just asking questions", honestly can't tell sometimes :P
Yet in the "females" thread you had people using semantics or the way the thread was titled or several other ways to dismiss that women were saying that when men use the word in the manner that they were discussing it made them feel as if they were being compared to livestock.
I want to point out that for some people who are directly affected by this kind of stuff in their day-to-day lives, they aren't posting to try and win hearts and minds. They are posting out of a sense of self-preservation and a desire to protect themselves and other affected people here.
It says a lot about the lack of mutual understanding here that we (I am including myself) are able to assume responses in discussions like this are by default level-headed attempts at reasoned debate
The James Gunn threads would lead you to believe otherwise... I was surprised by how many people who are typically very unforgiving were happy to support Gunn and his reform for the better.
What words are you wanting to use and not be banned for in your capacity to change?
Stop. That.
Trying to couch bigoted bullshit under the staid banner of "it's just opinions" is nothing short of dishonesty. Calling the absolute bare minimum of being a decent human being the "prevailing opinion" puts everything you say into question. At the very least, it'd be nice if you could stop trying to pretend that the behavior is something it's not.
That was some frustrating bullshit. "AHA! But your profile says female! Checkmate feminists"
We have to stop with all this "prevailing opinion" shit.
Last time I checked people are not getting banned from Era for disagreeing on fucking economic policy.
People get banned for making disingenuous arguments that lean towards sexism, racism, transphobia, etc., stuff that should be agreed upon as heinous.
I don't want to spend my time at a place where open transphobia is allowed. If you do, the new staff at NeoGAF seems happy to oblige you.
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i know a lot of men complain when they come in spouting their pro-life shit and us women yell at them for it lol
Compared to what? NeoGaf? Reddit? Twitter? Facebook? YouTube?
I read a lot more "lazy devs" rhetoric on other websites.
Yeah, that sexual female character designs thread was a mess. There's some work to be done for sure, but I think that compared to other forums I've been on the mods here are actually putting in the effort to try to stomp down on sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic/etc. behavior on this thread. There's still a lot of work to be done, for sure, but I think the mods are in the right direction.
I think that's exactly what Yogurt is talking about, though. There's no consensus on the definition, or threshold, for what constitutes "being a decent human being." I think there is a consensus about extreme bigotry and hate speech, but depending on the topic and context, there is a lot of disagreement about what would qualify a person for "bad human being" status.
It's sexist/racist/bigoted not in the sense that it's conscious individual prejudice, but that the lack of empathy due to seeing it as insignificant passively allows the broader cultural sexism/racism/bigotry to persist. It's not an inaccurate or contextually extreme application of the term.
There's really not much disagreement. If you're treating women or minorities with less respect or decency then you would white dude, you're an ass. it's not that hard. just don't be a dick. And it's pretty obvious to see who's arguing in bad faith and who's not.
PoC: "Hey, whoah that was a little racist dude"
Good faith response: "Ah, sorry my dude was not aware. I'll remember for next time."
Bad faith response: "It's just my opinion, I'm sorry you can't handle a difference of opinion. Don't take my frozen peaches sjw."
There are way too many who respond more of the latter and not the former.
I completely agree with you. What I'm saying is that there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as "treating with less respect or decency" (especially when you put "less" in there).
Don't be a dick is a great general guideline to live by, though.
Wow I missed this gem.
In those instances I don't see much of a response other than to click, ignore, and scroll on by. They obviously missed the point.
That's how privilege works, people in privileged positions don't have the perspective to see bigotry directed towards them or an adjacent group, and if a person is in that position and is genuine in wanting to improve, they need to listen to people, if that person was called racist, oftentimes it's because they said something racist, even if it was unintentional, so that person has the choice of either A) Be defensive, or B) Apologize, and google why what they said is considered racist, hopefully they can avoid saying something racist in the future.
I think it just shows in responses, tbh. Usually most users are given a chance to clarify or correct what they meant or their way of thinking. It's the ones that instantly go on the defensive I think are problems and make life tough or others. Agree tho, don't be a dick is like, the summation of all ethic tbqh
Myself? Nothing. I barely post anyway and prefer to just read the forum.
Were you hoping I'd say something else?
Fucking exactly haha. I wonder where him and his industry friends feel "safe" on the internet.
I am not at all trying to couch bigoted shit in any way. I am saying that a lot of threads are derailed or junked up by folks assuming the worst about each other and arguing against strawmen, which is not in reference to instances of explicit bigotry. Apologies for not being clearer.
As an example, a couple of months ago I felt pretty upset at folks in a political thread assuming I'm white guy who's clueless about race, filling in the blanks of my life experience, and then piling on with condescending shitposts. (You can click around, it happened across several posts). I know it's dumb to get upset over things on the internet, but I do, I admit, sometimes feel sensitive about my experience as a "brown" person in the US and thus usually don't bring it up.
In general, I'm not talking about moderator action. As I said earlier in the thread, I think the mods, overall, are doing well at striking a balance, though I do disagree with some decisions here and there. In the example I linked above, I don't think any moderator action was necessary - I was a bit hurt (unreasonably, probably) by what others posted, but none of it was worthy of mod action. Instead, it was best for us to discuss it amongst ourselves and hopefully learn something. Just as I'm learning a lot from reading the perspectives in this thread - I've been reading much more than I've been posting!
In many cases, the onus is on us users to contribute to a healthier, more robust discourse. If someone is posting dumb bigoted shit (homophobia, racism, etc.) don't respond, just report them.
Sorry for the rambling post, I'm on my phone.
Edit: NVM no need to bring up the old site.
Anyways, I'm at a workshop, so if I don't respond for a while, that's why. Plus phone typing sucks.
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That's entirely because of what movies he made and could still make.
There is a lot of disagreements, but the disagreements should be discussed between people from the same group, a white dude has no perspective on either racism or sexism, so there shouldn't be any substance in them disagreeing with a woman on what is considered sexist, or a non-white person on what is considered racist.
EDIT: I'm not saying they shouldn't participate, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't expect to overrule and/or dominate the discussion.
I just want to point out that Skyrim specifically said that they think their friends are exaggerating, so maybe we shouldn't push this too much as if they can just conjure up their friends' opinions in a matter of minutes
That's what I suspected as well, but oh boy, that wasn't a popular thing to say.
Ah yup, read the post better after your post and I agree. I'm way too tired.
Yup.
I asked them a few questions, I understand it will take them a bit to address everything
I think a lot of them genuinely believe they are treating everyone the same. That may even be true in some cases, but treating everyone the same is not good enough in a lot of situations where more sensitivity is required. This is where a lot of dudes have issues and can't reconcile with the simultaneous belief that everyone is supposed to be equal or whatever. I think a lot of these people are posting in good faith (as in, they sincerely believe what they write and aren't just trying to troll or get a rise out of people). Not that everyone should feel obligated to coddle or educate them, of course.
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