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Era's Woman Problem (Read OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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One person has used it and two people called him out on it. That poster almost certainly just means it as a mindless pejorative for leftists.
Era's problem is that it has a broken base.
There are too many dissident opinions, some misinformed, some malicious, plenty from different extremes of the same spectrum.
There are just too many people here to uphold the kind of integrity it wishes to maintain peacefully.
Either a line of hostility is crossed, we embrace division and moderate/neutral socio-political standards, or let time smooth out the creases...
There are too many dissident opinions, some misinformed, some malicious, plenty from different extremes of the same spectrum.
There are just too many people here to uphold the kind of integrity it wishes to maintain peacefully.
Either a line of hostility is crossed, we embrace division and moderate/neutral socio-political standards, or let time smooth out the creases...
User Banned (1 Day): Inflammatory comments
Seems boring to have a forum where everyone just agrees and pats eachother on the back. If people feel uncomfortable discussing things in a place that is as heavily moderated as this forum I don't know how they are able to function in real life. From my experience people here are more than capable of addressing dumb posts and take down problematic arguments, so I don't see the need to have stricter mods that run around and ban anyone with a different viewpoint.
User Banned (Permanent): Alt-Account
The lack of self awareness can be truly vexing. It reminds me of a recent thread where a few gay guys expressed discomfort towards terms like cocksucker, even when being applied to political opponents. I was surprised by how many posters proclaimed that it was just a right wing distraction tactic despite the fact that many in that very thread were asking for consideration.
It was a very discouraging thread.
Not sure what can be done, to be honest. As I minority, I have my gripes with the discourse on Era, and I can see why some other communities are feeling left out. I literally have nowhere left to discuss videogames and other stuff on internet without the threat of being called a slur or deal with libertarian/alt-right nonsense, but Era members not resorting to that is a low-bar to claim as an accomplishment, I suppose.
My only guess would be to have a subforum dedicated to direct, transparent discourse between the moderation staff and the members. PMing mods don't seem to be working in that regard.
My only guess would be to have a subforum dedicated to direct, transparent discourse between the moderation staff and the members. PMing mods don't seem to be working in that regard.
I meant gaming forums. Aside from the frankly ridiculous standard thinking like that puts us in. We're not here to think that we're "good enough for a gaming forum" or to feel good about what we already havr, we're here to make sure it's the best it can be.
Ew. Fuck that shit. I'm for some socialist policies, but Stalin is a monster who should not be excused.
I completely agree. This is my biggest problem too but I'm not sure how you would fix it. I'm usually fine with the discussions as long as people show their reasoning behind it but there are way too many shit heads that read the title/first sentence of a thread and jump in with a shitty post designed to stir up shit or get a quick laugh. Only it's not funny.
I wasn't. I was just adding what I see here compared to a everywhere else that has anything to do with tech/gaming. You've ever been to [H]ardForum?
We can improve but we need concrete suggestions and avoid any policy that leads to NeoGAF 2.0. Moderation there was horrorific. Maybe we can have "by invite only" hangout threads or something when people need to get away.
While I am aware of the lack of representation from women. I don't think ResetEra has a problem attracting minorities.
this community is hardly extreme leftist
it's centrist on economic issues and highly liberal on social issues (but with a big blind spot on women's issues, probably due to the gender ratio being heavily skewed towards men)
it's centrist on economic issues and highly liberal on social issues (but with a big blind spot on women's issues, probably due to the gender ratio being heavily skewed towards men)
Seeing women/PoC/LGBT+ people as subhuman is not a valid "opinion".
It is the central theme in this discussion and like I said, I think it is misguided. I don't want to see a return to GAF's style of moderation, one that was vague and exceptionally inconsistent. One of the founding ideals of ERA (least I thought) was that moderation was going to be open, consistent, and hopefully allowing for individuals to learn. It seems people are calling for a more direct and involved moderation that will drop a perm on someone for a single comment. You can and will catch a perm here, it just requires a history of infractions (depending on severity).
I like what the term 'different opinion' and 'different viewpoints' is being used to mask in here.
when you lose the plot enough that you're unable to win the hearts of minds of most people in a rational debate.
if marginally left-leaning/progressive people look at era-style discourse and think everyone here is looney toons then it just worsens the echo chamber effect here and the forum loses its chance to affect discourse at large since its just preaching to the choir in the most extreme sense.
aspects of the aziz ansari debacle were up for debate, and thankfully, i feel like the debate at large ended up in a more progressive place where people generally wound up agreeing that men need to be way less creepy and pushy, but woman also needed to own their agency more. that conclusion swung the pendulum to a better place for society at large, but it would probably be seen as an unsavoury conclusion by era because it didn't reach as far as agreeing that enthusiastic consent being a prerequisite for any physical intimacy. in other words, the debate that everyone else was having wasn't being had here because the forum is arguably too progressive. so progressive that it doesn't affect the debate at large. it isn't actually adding to the discussion everyone else is having and making the world a more progressive place.
it's that level of progressivism can be a problem.
And what of all the minority voices you drive out in the name of hypothetical quality posts from people who'd be banned under a less lax system
There's a lot of people who only do gaming side, many who are from far right sites. They like our community when it talks about games but not about politics.
I know what you mean, and now that you've posted this I think I'll put more effort into improving how I communicate how I'm feeling. Men aren't generally given any guidance or support on how to express their emotions or feelings so it's easy to see that we kind of suck at it. I'm going to do better to be more patient with others here on ERA and try to put myself in other people's shoes before hitting reply.
Thanks for the reminder.
This is actually something that is easy for the mods to fix. Post shit, get hit. GAF used to regularly hand out brief bans for threadcrapping. Didn't always work, but I do think it helped.
Of course not and I'm pretty sure that isn't something that is tolerated here.
In real life we don't have discussions with five thousand people at once.
Resetera is a business. Like all businesses it follows capitalist logic. The staff need more views for ads and so forth. If you want them to be harsher on posters than they already are, that will adversely affect their revenue stream. It isn't an enthusiast subreddit or something, it's literally a corporation.
If you want a self sustaining forum with purges and harsher moderation, you're probably going to have to shift to a subscription model.
If you want a self sustaining forum with purges and harsher moderation, you're probably going to have to shift to a subscription model.
Didn't read the second thread, but I guess we see the ArenaNet thread pretty differently. It was full of the people here who form an argument entirely based around what side they want to be associated with.
If being progressive involves pretending that firing was anymore than someone getting canned for being an asshole to a customer, guess I'm not progressive.
Extreme left*
*relative to America
Your profile says Sweden, so I imagine for you it's relatively more centrist.
People are discussing sexism and racism here, there shouldn't be "contentious opinions" on those subjects.
Pretty sure these people get banned if they voice this opnion on this forum.
My original post was me saying "hey fellow dudes, it's not okay to be dismissive when we have women in here saying they don't feel comfortable. We have to do better." I don't really understand how that stifles discussion. All I've done is contribute my opinion. It's fine if some people think it's too blunt or heavy handed, doesn't bother me.
I don't view this discussion as being "moderated" by women. If we're supposed to be a thoughtful and inclusive community we should take their concerns seriously.
GAF had little influence when it collapsed.
We're not that important brother.
Personally I would be throwing out thread bans left and right in here if I could as discussions about whether Era is Progressive or not is literally not the point of this thread. That was a clear aside by Persephone in the OP and her actual point of contention was the male defensiveness and sexist/misogynistic stuff that pops up and derails nearly every thread that touches upon women's issues.
This is kind of a major issue on this site where threads get completely derailed and ruined because people can't help but play the semantics game and instead of debating and discussing the actual point of an OP or post, instead choose to attack and debate some barely related element completely side stepping the actual core discussion. Whether it's done intentionally or not as a means to refute one point as if that negates the whole point or to just side step the OPs entire point completely doesn't really matter because that's basically how it works in the end.
And no, that doesn't mean threads cannot veer into other avenues of discussion and must only address the main topic as set out by the OP or whatever a post is about, but there are so many threads that just go to shit because people get wrapped up in debating some bullshit that is completely meaningless and devolve into unwinnable back and forths of "you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" ad nauseam.
This is kind of a major issue on this site where threads get completely derailed and ruined because people can't help but play the semantics game and instead of debating and discussing the actual point of an OP or post, instead choose to attack and debate some barely related element completely side stepping the actual core discussion. Whether it's done intentionally or not as a means to refute one point as if that negates the whole point or to just side step the OPs entire point completely doesn't really matter because that's basically how it works in the end.
And no, that doesn't mean threads cannot veer into other avenues of discussion and must only address the main topic as set out by the OP or whatever a post is about, but there are so many threads that just go to shit because people get wrapped up in debating some bullshit that is completely meaningless and devolve into unwinnable back and forths of "you're wrong" "no, you're wrong" ad nauseam.
And what is that, for someone who isn't sure what you're getting at?
Also - love your avatar. Big fan.
Just to make sure the context to what you are responding to is correct.
This is what I was responding too.
In this thread, no, I don't think people are expressing sexist views.
It should be understood that this is a videogame forum, I think that is pretty obvious. I don't think everyone needs to insert that when they are talking about ERA.
not etcetera. which is what we're really talking about for the most part.
They can remain as transparent as they are now, while cracking down on the racism and sexism that is casually allowed here.
That's certainly news to me.
Have you seen most trans women threads?
It seems some people want this to be an echo chamber and want mods to permaban users just because they don't share their same values ("not liberal enough" - but who decides who is progressive or not?), even if those users are respecting the forum rules and the mods don't tolerate personal offenses, racism, discrimination and many other vile things. That seems to be a pretty dangerous and authoritarian mindset if you want to shut down everyone even when the mods are doing their work. I agree that there are some bad posts that deserve permaban, but the polarization that reflects on our society is pretty much antagonizing everyone that doesn't think like you, even if both would be considered liberals in the first place.
The site can improve, of course, and doesn't need to compare itself with other less progressive sites, but I don't think going back to the previous moderation will make it better. If you are too welcome or too safe in a discussion forum, you would be just living in a tiny bubble. Exchange of ideas is important, that's how the world changes, even if it's not all fun and pleasure. I trust the mods to do the work when needed.
It's not that men are not "allowed" to have an opinion. The problem is that instead of listening and thinking that maybe they don't know everything, they come into threads about "women's issues" assuming a position of authority.
Men should open their minds to the possibility they might not have all the facts/experiences to really know what the fuck they are talking about.
As a man, maybe ask yourself why you think you need to "say your piece" about women's issues in the first place.
If you have an actual well reasoned, factually based argument/talking point by all means post away.
But drive-by opinions? What value is added to the discussion by those, other than you hearing yourself talk?
Men don't realize women are talked down to all day, every single day of their lives. Daily life as a woman is literally an endless barrage of men thinking that they have the position of authority by default and that whatever they are currently thinking at the moment deserves to be heard and respected over whatever you are, as a woman.
It's messed up because you get so many threads (especially on Gaming side) where anyone with a dissenting opinion just gets told things like "then why are you in this thread" or "this thread is only for people who agree with the OP".
I totally get what the OP is saying though. Sadly it doesn't just happen with women either. But unfortunately I'm not sure that there's an easy fix since most people need to be both educated on things and open to changing their views.
Treating women with dignity and respect isn't "patting them on the back", fuck sake.
It's not about smiling and nodding either. It's about engaging with what is said and respecting a womans view when it comes to issues that affect them, especially when it comes to mistreatment by men.
It's not asking for more moderation by the admin team, it's asking for some god damn humanity.
Can't you see the difference?
Thankfully I think most of the Tankies have been shown the door back to Reddit where they belong.
The end of it is that people don't like being told not to talk. People like talking, and people like making other people listen to them. Any statement that says "don't say/do/think X" will get zero attention from people that already don't, and a ton of attention from people that do and aren't willing to change their minds.
This is a message board, which is just a weird, antiquated social media forum. Talking with the general population isn't going to be productive, it's just going to be an excuse for people talk into the void and listen to their own voice. We're not any better than Twitter or Facebook or whatever - the problem of senseless noise is universal.
This is a message board, which is just a weird, antiquated social media forum. Talking with the general population isn't going to be productive, it's just going to be an excuse for people talk into the void and listen to their own voice. We're not any better than Twitter or Facebook or whatever - the problem of senseless noise is universal.
I'd be curious to see the demographic breakdown. Age, gender, nationality, country of residence... especially age. I think I've had a bad habit of assuming everyone else is roughly the same age range as me. It colors my perception of people's replies.
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