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Deleted member 2809

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Oct 25, 2017
25,478
Had to draft m19 yesterday with friends since dom was out of stock. Thank fuck pelakka wurm is rare, card is dumb. Format is fine when people let you have all the removal even though there's 3 people out of 5 in both your colors and blue is just unpicked lmao.
 

Justin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,757
Seattle, Washington
Dit3NQWWkAA1Ssc
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,373
Ravnica is probably, like, the least interesting setting for D&D (it's just Sigil with different factions, honestly), but I'm still excited. I'm mostly curious if they'll try to adapt the colors as an alternative to the alignment chart, which seems like the biggest departure but kind of necessary for Ravnica to work as a setting.
 

LProtagonist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,576
Huh, I wonder if any D&D stuff will show up in Magic now.

Also, question:
My LGS just started a sealed league, but instead of doing 3 boosters we randomly pulled a pool made by the TO based on one of the archetypes currently in standard. I got U/R spellslingers. Creatures with Prowess, a few U control spells, a few R burn spells, mostly stuff from Amonhket. We can get packs from any standard set once a week or for every 3 losses. What set should I be grabbing from? I'm missing a lot of low cost instant/sorceries. It's also hard getting a mix in a 30 card deck between creatures and spells in a heavily spell oriented deck.
 

Metal Slugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,424
St. Cloud, MN
Random thoughts on stuff from the past 15 years I missed:

Planeswalker cards are dumb. They slow the game down too much and are too powerful for what they cost. Also, how many times are the same damn characters going to get a new Planeswalker card? Do we really need like 14 versions of Nissa? I fully expect a beach vacation cycle with Ajani in a two-piece and Jace with arm floaties at this point.

Infect is cool but gat damn it needs to be 20 counters in Commander. Insta-losing to a third party casting Tainted Strike on the 9-power you didn't block is hilarious but totally broken.

Commander is the shit. Feels like OG Magic where you were limited to what you were able to scrounge from boosters and it makes the cards feel more important and epic. As much fun as it is to lose by getting pinged with Bitterblossom tokens that can't be blocked bc all of your spells get countered/bounced in Modetn, playing giant-ass creatures/ridiculous CMC spells/combotrons is SO much fun and more in the spirit of the game.

The restricted list needs to go. The whole Masterpiece experiment was and is bullshit. There is no logical reason that Lion's Eye Diamond should cost as much as a fucking game console. The older versions will still be worth more/more desirable and new players won't miss out on staple cards to stay competitive in legacy formats. Like for real, it's cardboard for having fun, not an investment portfolio.

The past few years of sets are awesome and remind me of when I got in during the Urza block. Really interesting cards, new world's/flavor, good new mechanics...it's good to be back.
 

Deleted member 29293

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Nov 1, 2017
1,084
Imo the biggest issue with Magic are rare lands. Having all those dual lands in the uncommon slot would fix so many issues with constructed and would help out limited as well with better mana bases. I just don't see how you can explain to any beginner why this super unexciting card type which is absolutely necessary to do anything will cost you 100$ just to get started.
 

Yeef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,439
New York
Imo the biggest issue with Magic are rare lands. Having all those dual lands in the uncommon slot would fix so many issues with constructed and would help out limited as well with better mana bases. I just don't see how you can explain to any beginner why this super unexciting card type which is absolutely necessary to do anything will cost you 100$ just to get started.
I don't think rare lands are a problem anywhere other than Arena. Having desirable rare lands actually helps flatten the cost of Standard a bunch, because it brings the cost of other cards down and also gives you easily-tradable fodder to trade into the cards that you want. Making the lands uncommons would just mean that the other staple rares would become more expensive.

For older formats, lands are definitely an issue, especially things like horizon Canopy and the ZEN fetches, but if Wizards really wanted to, they could easily bring the prices of those cards down by putting them in standard.
 

ZealousD

Community Resettler
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Oct 25, 2017
2,303
Imo the biggest issue with Magic are rare lands. Having all those dual lands in the uncommon slot would fix so many issues with constructed and would help out limited as well with better mana bases. I just don't see how you can explain to any beginner why this super unexciting card type which is absolutely necessary to do anything will cost you 100$ just to get started.

The explanation is easy. "They do it to sell packs."

I mean, that's the truth. Better to get it out of the way. If you want to play Magic, either you occasionally draft, or you prepare yourself to spend a lot of money.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
I don't think rare lands are a problem anywhere other than Arena. Having desirable rare lands actually helps flatten the cost of Standard a bunch, because it brings the cost of other cards down and also gives you easily-tradable fodder to trade into the cards that you want. Making the lands uncommons would just mean that the other staple rares would become more expensive.

For older formats, lands are definitely an issue, especially things like horizon Canopy and the ZEN fetches, but if Wizards really wanted to, they could easily bring the prices of those cards down by putting them in standard.
Exactly this, its incredibly good for the game outside of Arena.
 

Deleted member 29293

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I don't think rare lands are a problem anywhere other than Arena. Having desirable rare lands actually helps flatten the cost of Standard a bunch, because it brings the cost of other cards down and also gives you easily-tradable fodder to trade into the cards that you want. Making the lands uncommons would just mean that the other staple rares would become more expensive.

For older formats, lands are definitely an issue, especially things like horizon Canopy and the ZEN fetches, but if Wizards really wanted to, they could easily bring the prices of those cards down by putting them in standard.

Makes no sense, please explain why you think rare lands make other cards cheaper? They make them more expensive because the lands take rare slots away.

The explanation is easy. "They do it to sell packs."

I mean, that's the truth. Better to get it out of the way. If you want to play Magic, either you occasionally draft, or you prepare yourself to spend a lot of money.

Yeah I know it's for selling packs, I just think they could find a better way where customers and Wotc benefit.

Exactly this, its incredibly good for the game outside of Arena.

Can anyone explain to me this weird theory why it's a good thing?
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Can anyone explain to me this weird theory why it's a good thing?
Because otherwise the chase cards in the set would be way way way higher than they are now in most sets. It flattens card prices. There's a real difference in price levels between a large set w/ no lands and w/ lands when it comes to the priciest cards. It's why I picked up flip Bolases at 28.
 

Deleted member 29293

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Because otherwise the chase cards in the set would be way way way higher than they are now in most sets. It flattens card prices. There's a real difference in price levels between a large set w/ no lands and w/ lands when it comes to the priciest cards. It's why I picked up flip Bolases at 28.
Can you also come up with a reason for this completely unsubstantiated effect? Makes no sense why the presence of rare lands magically reduces the prices of other cards. Only determinent is supply and demand and rare lands reduce the supply of other rares so all else equal prices would be higher. Only possible explanation would be that the rare lands increase box openings so much that this even overcompensates for the taken rare slot but tbh that seems like a stretch to me. Even then it stands to argue whether the net effect is even positive considering the more expensive lands when they are rare.
 

Yeef

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Oct 25, 2017
1,439
New York
Makes no sense, please explain why you think rare lands make other cards cheaper? They make them more expensive because the lands take rare slots away.
Basically, each average booster box has a set amount of equity. For simplicity's sake, let's say $100. Let's say there's 5 chase cards in the set and everything else is bulk. Those five cards would end up eating the vast majority of the equity and therefore have to be more expensive to account for booster boxes opened that don't have any copies of those cards. If say say that, on average, you get 2 chase cards in a box, that means each one will settle around $50.

On the other hand, if the equity is spread out amongst, say, 25 cards, that means that $100 equity gets spread around further and there's fewer boxes with no money cards that need to be made up for when considering pricing. Because the odds of opening a box with no value is lesser, it means that the delta between the high end of a box's value and the low end is smaller, so prices flatten out.

We've seen this in the real world already with masterpieces. The masterpieces took all of the equity of the booster boxes and standard card prices plummeted. While that sounds fine on paper, in reality, not being able to sell or trade your cards for any real value is miserable. Wizards realized that and that (and a few other things) caused them to discontinue masterpieces.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Can you also come up with a reason for this completely unsubstantiated effect? Makes no sense why the presence of rare lands magically reduces the prices of other cards. Only determinent is supply and demand and rare lands reduce the supply of other rares so all else equal prices would be higher. Only possible explanation would be that the rare lands increase box openings so much that this even overcompensates for the taken rare slot but tbh that seems like a stretch to me. Even then it stands to argue whether the net effect is even positive considering the more expensive lands when they are rare.
It's not "completely unsubstantiated" unless you don't understand pack economics at all. If it feels like a "stretch" it's because you don't know what you are talking about.

The average box value for a current print-to-order set is fixed. The cards in any given equally sized set will be worth the same, collectively, as any other in print standard set. This means that adding rares to a set does not "add" value to a set, it redistributes it among more cards than it did previously. And in doing so, adding them sucks $ from the chase cards in the set and gives it to them, because the lands are pushing out chaff cards. (Generally you get about the same level of playable/high end nonland cards in a given set whether lands are there or not.)
Basically, each average booster box has a set amount of equity. For simplicity's sake, let's say $100. Let's say there's 5 chase cards in the set and everything else is bulk. Those five cards would end up eating the vast majority of the equity and therefore have to be more expensive to account for booster boxes opened that don't have any copies of those cards. If say say that, on average, you get 2 chase cards in a box, that means each one will settle around $50.

On the other hand, if the equity is spread out amongst, say, 25 cards, that means that $100 equity gets spread around further and there's fewer boxes with no money cards that need to be made up for when considering pricing. Because the odds of opening a box with no value is lesser, it means that the delta between the high end of a box's value and the low end is smaller, so prices flatten out.

We've seen this in the real world already with masterpieces. The masterpieces took all of the equity of the booster boxes and standard card prices plummeted. While that sounds fine on paper, in reality, not being able to sell or trade your cards for any real value is miserable. Wizards realized that and that (and a few other things) caused them to discontinue masterpieces.
Yup, they had to introduce "standard showdown" boosters because regular boosters were complete trash and no one wanted them as prizes. BFZ was literally Gideon, Masterpiece, or bust.
 

Deleted member 29293

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There is no reason why you would not be able to replace the chaff rares with playables without rare lands. Additionally, I would assume the benefit of easily affordable dual lands exceeds the potential price increase of some chase mythics because at least you can build functioning decks as you have the most important part in the lands. The barrier of entry neess to be lower for that. I really don't care if that means that a complete tier 1 deck gets pricier for the few spikes who want to build them.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
There is no reason why you would not be able to replace the chaff rares with playables without rare lands. Additionally, I would assume the benefit of easily affordable dual lands exceeds the potential price increase of some chase mythics because at least you can build functioning decks as you have the most important part in the lands. The barrier of entry neess to be lower for that. I really don't care if that means that a complete tier 1 deck gets pricier for the few spikes who want to build them.
You had low barrier of entry in BFZ/Kaladesh. Decks were incredibly cheap.

It turns out that it's a bad thing because you actually do need that carrot because if the cards aren't valuable people don't want to play in tournaments to win more valueless cards. (yes the format had lots of other issues but this was a big one) The bans happened to the extend they did because attendance at the time for local tournaments was cratering. Bad format + bad prizes combined for a toxic nightmare.
 

Deleted member 29293

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Interesting, but there gotta be a better way. While maybe being good for the economy there are so many negatives of having duals as rare. Idk, feels suboptimal especially in regards to bringing in new players. I really think this will also be an issue with Arena when they will certainly try to attract the Hearthstone crowd. I can only imagine what a HS player thinks when he is told he has to craft dozens of rare lands. I wonder if they ever considered internally to chanhe the rarity for Arena (or provide another way to obtain them).
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,771
Interesting, but there gotta be a better way. While maybe being good for the economy there are so many negatives of having duals as rare. Idk, feels suboptimal especially in regards to bringing in new players. I really think this will also be an issue with Arena when they will certainly try to attract the Hearthstone crowd. I can only imagine what a HS player thinks when he is told he has to craft dozens of rare lands. I wonder if they ever considered internally to chanhe the rarity for Arena (or provide another way to obtain them).

The suggestion I've heard floated around before is to print rare lands in the basic land slot instead of the rare slot. So when you open a pack with a rare dual land, you end up getting two rares in the pack.

I don't understand set economics well enough to know what kind of effect that would have on prices, but it theoretically would have less of an impact on the price of singles while avoiding the "feel bad" of someone opening packs and getting "just" a land.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,606
They did that with Khans and/or Fate Reforged and Gatecrash and the latter only had terrible value since all but 1 card sucked.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,680
$1200 modern decks, $5000 legacy decks, and people are still defending rare lands

i get legacy has a different issue with reserved list nonsense, but the game is still ridiculous


anyways, rare lands suck for gameplay

don't want them in my sealed pool
don't want them in draft
don't want them increasing price of constructed (mainly modern/legacy)

maybe someone calculated that they make more money from lands than they lose from having fewer players, but idk what the specifics would be

i guess their general failure to monetize non-rotating formats means they don't care if fewer people play
 

Yeef

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Oct 25, 2017
1,439
New York
anyways, rare lands suck for gameplay

don't want them in my sealed pool
don't want them in draft
don't want them increasing price of constructed (mainly modern/legacy)
Rare lands are fine for limited. In sealed, there's not really much difference between an uncommon land and a rare land. Sure, you could potentially have that rare slot for something more exciting, but that slot could just as easily be something like Isolate. At least the rare land has some value and potentially helps you splash.

We've already discussed how rare lands actually make Standard cheaper overall. The issues with rare lands in older formats apply to all chase cards, not just the lands. Noble Heirarch is a $75 mana dork. Engineered Explosives is a $85 sideboard card.
 

ZealousD

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We've already discussed how rare lands actually make Standard cheaper overall. The issues with rare lands in older formats apply to all chase cards, not just the lands. Noble Heirarch is a $75 mana dork. Engineered Explosives is a $85 sideboard card.

Rare lands don't make Standard cheaper. You might be able to make the argument that the cost of Standard is unaffected by lands being rare, but I think even this argument is suspect for several reasons which I won't immediately go into.

They definitely make older formats more expensive. If fetch lands were printed at uncommon they'd be sitting at prices closer to other highly valued uncommons, like Path to Exile or Bloodbraid Elf.
 

Yeef

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Oct 25, 2017
1,439
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Rare lands don't make Standard cheaper. You might be able to make the argument that the cost of Standard is unaffected by lands being rare, but I think even this argument is suspect for several reasons which I won't immediately go into.

They definitely make older formats more expensive. If fetch lands were printed at uncommon they'd be sitting at prices closer to other highly valued uncommons, like Path to Exile or Bloodbraid Elf.
I think fetches would probably be in the $10 to $15 range if they'd been uncommon, but again, if they reprinted them in standard, their prices would crater even at rare. The shocks and the onslaught fetches were in the $7~$12 range while they were last in Standard. They'd go back up eventually once the set they're printed in rotates, but even then they'll still be a lot lower than they are now. The most expensive Khans fetch is almost half the price of the least expensive Zendikar fetch even though the former sees significantly more play.

Rare lands make standard cheaper assuming you don't just buy a deck 100% complete. If you do any limited or otherwise open packs you'll be opening lands that you don't need but are worth something, so you can trade or sell them for cards that you do need. Basically, the total dollar costs of the decks might not change, but more of the cost is deferred the more spread out the equity is, which effectively makes the decks cheaper.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,771
Rares and Mythics will always be the most expensive singles due to the fact that there are fewer of them in the market and they tend to be better cards on average. You might think that the price of a rare or mythic is unbounded, but that's not actually true - there's a theoretical upper limit to how expensive a card can be before it becomes a better value to just buy a box than buy the singles.

Now, let's pretend that there is only a single rare in a set that's actually Standard playable. Only one. That means everybody wants it. What are the odds of getting a specific rare from a box? Not very good! That means the cost of that rare can theoretically skyrocket, because if the rest of that box is trash it's not worth it to go hunting for it.

But what if, let's say, 60% of rares are playable in Tier 1/2 Standard decks? The odds of getting a specific rare don't change, but the odds of getting playable cards out of a box that you could sell back to a store for value have gone way up. So you could theoretically buy boxes to go hunting for that rare because the return on the rest of the box makes up for it. This puts a low(er) ceiling on the cost of that rare.

So it's best for the overall health of the game if more of the rares are playable, because it flattens the overall cost for the cards. It also makes the median value for packs go up, which is good for drafters and the compulsive pack crackers.

What does this have to do with lands? It's hard for Wizards to know specifically which rares will and won't be playable. They can try to push some (and they do) but that doesn't guarantee they hit the mark (and if they push too hard at the mythic level they can blow this whole model up). But the lands actually are a guarantee. Everybody will need them. Every deck will play them. Which means those 5-10 cards will carry a value and help keep the overall cost ceiling down.
 

ZealousD

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2,303
Rare lands make standard cheaper assuming you don't just buy a deck 100% complete. If you do any limited or otherwise open packs you'll be opening lands that you don't need but are worth something, so you can trade or sell them for cards that you do need. Basically, the total dollar costs of the decks might not change, but more of the cost is deferred the more spread out the equity is, which effectively makes the decks cheaper.

"Rare lands make Standard cheaper because you buy more packs."

That's basically your argument...
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,606
It's 30 tix online as it's only distributed through treasure chests.

Its dumb as w/ it there's 0 way to lose to decking.
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,373
Estrid looks pretty cool. But otherwise, yeah, nothing too exciting there. Aura tokens are (mostly) new ground.

Kind of weird to see Saheeli in that lineup, though.
 

LProtagonist

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
7,576
I think I'm gonna get the Izzet deck so that I can build my Jhoira brawl deck with stuff that's rotating without feeling bad about it and eventually just turn it into an EDH deck by combining the two.
 
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Deleted member 16849

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Oct 27, 2017
1,167
Welp time to buy a Saheeli planeswalker and Ramunap Excavator in case they spike, I was hoping to wait to rotation. Looks like I actually might need a Crucible of Worlds now too.

I got all 4 decks on pre-order already. History always shows us Commander products always go up in value.
 

Bigkrev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,307
Wizards should retroactively delete Vinemare from the game.
I'll be honest- I thought that 4 mana was a "safe" number to print Hexproof at. At this point, they either really need to drop the keyword for power level reasons, or restrict it only to 7+ mana creatures and various non-attacking creature things that need it (ie, Combat tricks, walls, etc)
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I'll be honest- I thought that 4 mana was a "safe" number to print Hexproof at. At this point, they either really need to drop the keyword for power level reasons, or restrict it only to 7+ mana creatures and various non-attacking creature things that need it (ie, Combat tricks, walls, etc)

The combination of can't block is nasty too, though just limited to one colour. Still when you play black it's a fucked up feeling to face it.

Oh so now vinemare is the problem huh
lmao just ban standard

I am talking about limited.
 

Deleted member 2809

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Meh, I guess it's even stronger than steel leaf for limited, but it's not like you can't block it at all, 3 toughness is fine. Ofc there's the problem of stacking auras and shit, but M19 limited just isn't that great to begin with anyway
 
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