Why isn't the industry or gaming journalism saying anything about problematic influencers?

I still don't like the word 'influencer.' It sounds stupid in my opinion, but oh well.

Well, writing more about them is just giving them more audience and putting them on the spotlight (which they often love).

Remember that those people are just regular guys who for whatever reason got famous.
They don't need a bachelor's degree or a resume to be able to shout stuff during streams.
They don't need to be ethical or professional.
They are not hired by a big company most of the time, so they can keep doing whatever they want and their followers will keep throwing money at them.

In other words, many won't change either way and talking about them won't make them quit what they do, it will only give them more views.

Personally, I'd rather talk about video games and the people who make them. If I have 60 minutes a week to cover Nintendo or PlayStation on a podcast/video show, I'd prefer to focus on servicing my audience with news and hands on impressions of the stuff I love playing that week.

Chairmanchuck said:

It would shine a spotlight on those personalities and might tell others why it might be bad to use racial slurs if an article is written well.

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To who? Their fans? If their fans hear that shit now and have no issue with it, then I don't think an article saying "Oh, this guy is racist" is going to change that. They likely feel the same way.

Chairmanchuck said:

I mean with that argument I could also legitimize articles about Gamergate, because "how would articles about that group make them go away?" Its about awareness of these issues and with articles talking about those issues and how those things might normalize racism or the problematic "both sides" issues, it might lead to other people seeing it differently than before.

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I think the difference there is that if journalists and the industry were much more aggressive with that issue when it first popped up it would've made it clear that they weren't wanted in the industry. While some did speak up there really weren't that many. Although i'd say now they're kinda speaking in a different way by how diverse gaming is becoming.

Antrax said:

This is basically arguing that journalism itself can't do anything. Articles are information, and a lot of shitty people rely on their shitty sides staying under the radar.

Articles about PDP being a racist (in mainstream media, certainly not gaming media) got him canned by Disney. There's power in being part of an informed public about issues that matter. But we'll still just mostly get articles about whether some pixels are pretty enough or whatever instead

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But PDP gave them something to work with there. Whenever some prominent streamer does something you can be sure that they'll be on that quickly. Are they supposed to write articles after every idiotic tweet from some influencer?

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that they shouldn't write articles about them. But there's got to be some meat there for them to work off of. I'd also argue that they could have a much bigger influence if they began to try to boost some of the more positive streamer and Youtuber personalities. It's not particularly difficult to find those people. Write articles about them and then suddenly you'll have people listening to someone who isn't using derogatory language to describe women or who doesn't view diversity as a bad thing.

I'd prefer they not. I'd also prefer these Youtube and Twitch personalities to stop talking politics and focus solely on the games. Someone will always have an opinion you disagree with or even find offensive. The whole "attack this person out of existence because they have a different opinion than me!" is exhausting to look at.

TaterTots said:

I'd prefer they not. I'd also prefer these Youtube and Twitch personalities to stop talking politics and focus solely on the games. Someone will always have an opinion you disagree with or even find offensive. The whole "attack this person out of existence because they have a different opinion than me!" is exhausting to look at.

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Fuck off with this bullshit. Racism isn't a different opinion.

Dongs Macabre said:

Fuck off with this bullshit. Racism isn't a different opinion.

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Why is racism the first thing that is brought up when someone makes a comment like mine? I'd figure it would be common sense to know I and others aren't talking about someone going around using racial slurs.

SolidSnakex said:

Are they supposed to write articles after every idiotic tweet from some influencer?

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Yeah. It's what journalists do a lot in mainstream media. Tweets are statements, and often newsworthy.

SolidSnakex said:

try to boost some of the more positive streamer and Youtuber personalities. It's not particularly difficult to find those people. Write articles about them and then suddenly you'll have people listening to someone who isn't using derogatory language to describe women or who doesn't view diversity as a bad thing.

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Sure. But they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

TaterTots said:

I'd prefer they not. I'd also prefer these Youtube and Twitch personalities to stop talking politics and focus solely on the games. Someone will always have an opinion you disagree with or even find offensive. The whole "attack this person out of existence because they have a different opinion than me!" is exhausting to look at.

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OP, posts like these answer your question. Gamers would rather have negative peace than positive justice. God forbid marginalized people's concerns interfere with their video games.

TaterTots said:

Why is racism the first thing that is brought up when someone makes a comment like mine?

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Because the issue is about racism and sexism in the industry. Boogie cares more about tone policing clear racism but oh no don't touch his video games mr trump.

Without reading everyone else's comments, reporting on some of the people mentioned in the op would be making a political statement. Unless they have done something particularly newsworthy I don't think it would be a good idea. In most situations I would want my game journalists to be impartial within reason.

To sum it up. Reporting on this stuff makes a political statement. Within reason, journalists should want to remain impartial.

It's so weird when a big ResetEra thread is full of lively conversations based on a premise that everyone just accepts, despite the fact that it is entirely false. This thread is already halfway through page 2 and nobody has pointed out the fact that the OP is straight up lying.

Chairmanchuck said:

The PDP "n-word" and "Death to all Jews" debacle was covered mostly by mainstream outlets.

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Entirely not true, yet many of you seem to believe that it is.

Kotaku has thoroughly covered PewDiePie's controversies, Ninja rapping slurs, DrDisrespect's drama, and much more. https://kotaku.com/youtubers-worry-about-blowback-from-new-pewdiepie-contr-1803141329
https://kotaku.com/top-twitch-streamer-ninja-rapped-a-slur-leading-to-a-f-1824157259
https://kotaku.com/im-an-idiot-pewdiepie-apologizes-for-saying-n-word-on-1803776852

Polygon covers both gaming and non-gaming YouTube drama, and their reporter Julia Alexander is all over the Twitch/YouTube/influencer beat. https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/13/17566068/banned-twitch-streamers-youtube-slurs-language
https://www.polygon.com/2017/9/13/16296652/pewdiepie-apology-entitled
https://www.polygon.com/2017/9/21/16341458/pewdiepie-racial-slurs-online-gaming

Even IGN -- which has traditionally focused on news about products rather than people -- covered PewDiePie's racial slur: http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/09...stream-firewatch-dev-threatens-video-takedown

It's not like any of this stuff is hard to find.

You really can't expect websites that focus on producing glorified commercials for the games industry to do actual good, critical pieces about genuine moral issues. A lot of sites these days are just promotional outlets under the guise of journalism, and money and clicks are what they care about.

That said, there are some legitimately great articles out there in in a few enthusiast sites. They're just tougher to find. Kotaku has actually done some fine work in this regard, for instance.

What would you want journalists to do?

Write an article saying "x youtuber said y which group z see's as controversial"? That's not exactly interesting is it - especially as most youtubers aren't really noteworthy.

I mean sure, you can have an editorial that's basically a hatchet job on an individual, but nobody really wants to write those.

Saying this, a long form piece on the role of these kind of personalities and how they affect "gaming culture" (for want of a better phrase) could be interesting.

I said something about that on a thread that discussed about the credibility of the gaming journalism that gave me a week of ban for that.

Let's just say that there are some interests on the gaming community that blinds some people to face some real consequences over their acts.

ReginaldXIV said:

Calling out Boogie would be a mine field of anguish for anyone who tried given all he's been through in his life.

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you don't get to be immune from criticism just because you had a shitty life

Chairmanchuck said:

Thanks for the post Jason. Admittedly I didnt know about those articles besides the PDP articles. So thanks for clearing that up and thanks for notifying me of good writes like Julia.

But since you are in the industry and one of the journalists I really enjoy reading articles of, why do you think that following Dr. Disrespects award last year at the VGAs, no one (at least from what I see) questioned the choice knowing he uses racial slurs in streams?

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Tons of people have criticized the "Trending Gamer" award, and IIRC Geoff is changing it for this coming year, but from what I remember, word about Dr. Disrespect using a mock Chinese accent came out a couple months after last year's show. And guess what -- that was covered by gaming sites too: https://kotaku.com/dr-disrespect-calls-criticism-of-his-mock-chinese-accen-1822837251

Professor Beef said:

you don't get to be immune from criticism just because you had a shitty life

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Doesn't stop him from trying. Destiny had a stream with him trying to take Boogie to task, albeit in a "kiddie gloves" kind of way, and the dude almost broke down in tears. Destiny won't release the VOD because he doesn't want Boogie to hurt himself, at least from what I can gather.

Chairmanchuck said:

Thanks for the post Jason. Admittedly I didnt know about those articles besides the PDP articles. So thanks for clearing that up and thanks for notifying me of good writes like Julia.

But since you are in the industry and one of the journalists I really enjoy reading articles of, why do you think that following Dr. Disrespects award last year at the VGAs, no one (at least from what I see) questioned the choice knowing he uses racial slurs in streams?

Regarding the "lying". It is just my general observation that those topics, besides on pages like Waypoint or Polygon arent that present as they (imo) should be, especially knowing how those people might be able to influence a whole generation.

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FWIW I believe that "Trending gamer" is an audience vote category

boris_ said:

There are none of any notable significance.

+ it is probably better not giving these kind of people any attention.

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The issue is that they're not being called out and they're still being invited to events.

Geoff rewarded Boogie with the trending gamer award and despite everything he's said, he invited Boogie to show up to his live e3 show.

daegan said:

FWIW I believe that "Trending gamer" is an audience vote category

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Doesn't really matter unless they take the award back or announce they're changing the way the trending gamer award works.
Awarding people for being popular seems unnecessary anyways

Why kick the beehive?

daegan said:

FWIW I believe that "Trending gamer" is an audience vote category

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brb, creating gamer mcgamerface twitch channel.

TaterTots said:

Why is racism the first thing that is brought up when someone makes a comment like mine? I'd figure it would be common sense to know I and others aren't talking about someone going around using racial slurs.

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Wait, wasn't that what this thread was about? Boogie defended a hate movement, a white supremacist, and continues to cape for similar things. Pewdiepie used a racial slur, makes Nazi jokes, compared the Charlesville riot to his fans and such.

smash_robot said:

brb, creating gamer mcgamerface twitch channel.

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Twitch will just change it to Sir smash_robot Attenborough.

We are. We also try to highlight good streamers.

The people who say they want game journalists to highlight negative influencers mean they want game journalists to highlight negative influencers they don't already like.

TaterTots said:

Why is racism the first thing that is brought up when someone makes a comment like mine? I'd figure it would be common sense to know I and others aren't talking about someone going around using racial slurs.

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Because racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. etc. is the reason we take issue with these influencers? I feel like that should be just as much common sense. We aren't upset with the likes of Boogie and PDP because they're cat people and we're more of a dog crowd.

Nick C said:

Doesn't stop him from trying. Destiny had a stream with him trying to take Boogie to task, albeit in a "kiddie gloves" kind of way, and the dude almost broke down in tears. Destiny won't release the VOD because he doesn't want Boogie to hurt himself, at least from what I can gather.

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Also, yes, if you're claiming gaming outlets did not cover the PewDiePie thing, you didn't even use google to confirm this.

Nick C said:

Doesn't stop him from trying. Destiny had a stream with him trying to take Boogie to task, albeit in a "kiddie gloves" kind of way, and the dude almost broke down in tears. Destiny won't release the VOD because he doesn't want Boogie to hurt himself, at least from what I can gather.

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How long was that from his ban on GAF where he was using the same strategy? I'm just wondering if he's been keeping it in his pocket this whole time.

TaterTots said:

Why is racism the first thing that is brought up when someone makes a comment like mine? I'd figure it would be common sense to know I and others aren't talking about someone going around using racial slurs.

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because this thread is about people that do exactly that?

L Thammy said:

How long was that from his ban on GAF where he was using the same strategy? I'm just wondering if he's been keeping it in his pocket this whole time.

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Right after Destiny was banned from Twitch, so in the last month or so.

Their fanbases just doesnt give a damn, and there are far too many fans and far too many influencers who seemingly pop up overnight to keep up. While some could take a stand on a few notable ones, it just wouldn't really make an impact. Look at Pewdiepie and the N word. It's worth calling out, but nothing happens in the end. Dr. Disrespekt saying chingchong will matter even less.

GamerGate happened.

Kyari said:

Most mainstream video game coverage is in the critiquing of products as reviews, or reposting approved announcements as news. Its literally not their jobs in a lot of instances to talk about these kinds of things, with the exception of a handful of outlets like Polygon and Waypoint who tend to have more investigative/think piece structured articles.

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Exactly.

Just because these people are popular on YouTube does not mean that they deserve to have spotlight in other parts of the industry.

You can't treat websites like the US' current news media. If they spent time dealing with random YouTube personality drama, they'd lose a lot of readers, subscribers, etc because there's plenty people that give a damn about the games alone, not people who are trying to attach themselves to them.

Even on this website you're in danger of getting mobbed by stans if you call out somebody's favorite

Money. Most games media chases a general audience. The anti sj crowd is a very significant portion of gamers that would frequent any site(distinction not gamers in general maybe).

Cause of the backlash and real life consequences

Because gaming journalism doesn't exist. All popular sites are just posting new ads for upcoming games and reviews. Nothing more.

808s & Villainy said:

I don't think industry journalists care as much about influences and you claim they do, and I don't either. I'd rather them focus on reporting for people and issues actually in the industry. As in devs, publishers, etc. Not random youtubers who have gotten popular for talking about games. That isn't to say there aren't issues tangentially related that shouldn't be focused on as well, like GamerGate, but who really gives a shit about Boogie? If Kotaku or Verge staff are writing an article, I'd rather it be about an actual industry figure

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Same. I'm not saying they shouldn't cover that kind of stuff, but I don't give two hoots about 'gamer culture' news, so they wouldn't get me reading those articles, and I don't imagine I'm alone.

SturokBGD said:

It's almost as if there's no ethics in games journalism.

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Well there it is

Because this industry is what spawned these hate movements and alt-right garbage.

When I used to write for one my boss told me I couldn't write about social or political issues. I really wanted to write the article so I published it on my blog instead.

People on Era need to start laying off Boogie. Guy is confirmed suicidal and depressed, and while he has controversial opinions, it's gotten to the point that mocking him isn't needed. The guy is...just a guy.

TaterTots said:

I'd prefer they not. I'd also prefer these Youtube and Twitch personalities to stop talking politics and focus solely on the games. Someone will always have an opinion you disagree with or even find offensive. The whole "attack this person out of existence because they have a different opinion than me!" is exhausting to look at.

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Being a racist is not a difference of opinion. It's being a worthless hateful asshole who offers nothing of value to the world.

No, let them talk politics. Let them show what fucking shits they are so we can see just how fucking poisonous and widespread these ideologies are rather than sweeping them under the rug and pretending they don't exist.

They do as Jason pointed out, but I don't think outlets "calling these people out" does anything to solve the issue to be honest.
I mean they have an audience, a gigantic audience. And that's where the issue lies, the people that applaud this behavior.

An article posted by Kotaku or a similar outlet calling out some racist, offensive or sexist comment would do nothing but bring these people's thousands of defenders and loyalists out to make an argument about how what they said shouldn't have offended anyone.

The problem lies in their audience, and the other media guys that collaborate with these people, go on their shows, promote their stuff, try to separate the "friend" or colleague from the "controversial individual" etc.

I mean, CM has the #1 PS podcast as of the moment (and probably deservedly so since his knowledge on all things playstation is great and the product of a long career in games media)... but just try for example to find one of his many tweets where he's "attacked" and you'll see a gazillion of tweets from his followers and defenders.... (now I'm not saying all or even the majority is like that, not close but) you'll be surprised to see many of those twitter profiles are filled with nazi, neonazi, racist, sexist and just offensive bios/tweets and the like. Some of those people jump at lightspeed to defend him when he posts shit like this, I bet many of them don't even care about games (or at least it looks that way from a quick glance at their far-right bio/recent tweets that focus mainly on jumping at every possible similar discussion).
I'm sure you wouldn't find a similar ratio of neo-nazi followers on Greg Miller's twitter account for example.

10 years ago I would have never expected to see a social network full of people being openly Nazi/racist/sexist and roaming freely all over the net; but they exist, by the millions, and they flock to whoever aligns the most with their ideals even just to an extent, in order to create a division, find a figure to defend and stand behind, and create enemies of those that don't share their thoughts.

I'm sure if some sort of "breittube" was created where they allowed to stream games while openly being racist, sexist, offensive and just flat out nazi, it would have few streamers, but with millions of followers, and every now and then you'd see some of the other industry figures collaborate with them.

That's the bigger issue than the lack of outraged reports every time one of these guys does/says something that crosses the line. The millions that will devour their content and stand behind them.

I think some of it is that some of the journalists and industry people don't actually see anything wrong with some of it, or they dismiss it as typical gamer overblown language--look at how over-the-top Jim Sterling and the Angry Video Game Nerd tend to be, plus people like PewDiePie and such. That, and how some devs, like Notch, agree with them...

It's also tough, because a lot of people don't want to end up coming under fire. Look at what happened with ArenaNet and those devs being fired for standing up for themselves; that was hardly a blip compared to what devs have done to insult fans (again, Notch comes to mind). The smallest critique can end up bringing harassment on people, especially because a lot of the loudest voices have huge fanbases, like JonTron and PewDiePie. :/

That being said, like Jason Schreier said: they're not being ignored. There's a reason, after all, the GamerGate-centered subreddit is "KotakuInAction"--Kotaku tends to talk about these kinds of issues. Them and Polygon seem to be the most outspoken of the outlets about bigotry in gaming culture.

I don't think calling them out does much other than draw the alt-right mob to yourself, harassing you or even your family. Not worth it imo.

Because not being a bigot is Being Political™ and we can't do that.

Remember how people were rightly upset that life sim Tomodachi Life excluded same-sex couples and Reggie said they "didn't want to make a political statement"?

If you're not a straight, white, cis dude your existence is political and different and too dirty to talk about or defend or even acknowledge most of the time. Racism, sexism etc just gets ignored because it's easier than rocking the boat and risking alienating people you're making money from.

Plus, we're in a bubble here - gamers as a group are some of the most entitled, bigoted jerkwads in existence. This forum would be full of people like that if it didn't require a special email to register. Thankfully, instead, it's an oasis where you can like video games AND be a good person at the same time, on the internet no less - a rare sight indeed.

And finally, if you so much as whisper the word Equality you get 20 bomb threats at your next gig. Not worth it for people who just wanna write about games. There's a sniper dot on my forehead as I type this.

It's a sad state of affairs.