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Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,086
What's the harm in specifying here and giving specific example when if the OP made a broader thread, someone else would just complain about generalization and #notallgamers away the issue.

This is a fair criticism and who better to criticize Nintendo fans, than other Nintendo fans? Because you sure as well won't take it from Nintendo or any other group.
I think that there are elements of the Nintendo fanbase that are absurd in their reactions to things that don't fit their mold, as with other communities and fandoms. And I can even concede that, in a lot of ways, the Nintendo fandom is more rife with examples of that attitude in action than others, and has been for a long, long time now - I think in large part due to a sense of entitlement that stems from people enjoying a franchise or concept for many years and then watching that franchise or concept change to suit an audience besides them. (That's not to say I disregard reasonable criticism of change as entitlement - just that those people could be more reasonable in their criticisms a lot of the time. I've been guilty of the same sort of reactions - Halo, for example, was a series I criticized harshly for not meeting my specific expectations, before an interaction with Stinkles here made the silliness of my exaggerated attitude toward the Halo series clear enough for me to see.)

I think that that, those people witnessing franchises change in ways they simply don't like, plays a much larger part in generating that sort of negative reaction from the fandom, than Nintendo making casual games alone does, or even Nintendo making games more 'casual' does - as Nintendo has implemented mechanics and features to make their games easier to play for the uninitiated before, mechanics and features that had been celebrated by even longtime fans of the franchises where they appeared. I felt as though the basis for the argument, in this case, was flawed, and may have been inspired moreso by this latest vitriolic overreaction from Nintendo fans, than by any reaction to things like Super Assist and Labo from the Nintendo fandom, because the reaction to those things from Nintendo fans specifically were mixed at best and largely positive or optimistic from my recollection.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
26,560
Because the root to all the negativity coming from fans is overall discontent with Switch as a platform, while the actual tidbit of news we got from the Pokemon director merely acts as an outlet for all that pent up rage. Each time they talk about dumbing their games down is like reopening a fresh wound. Forum discussion has always been an on-going kind of thing, where each thread is a continuation of the last, as opposed to reacting unbiased to isolated events. Other recent events affect your response. Pokemon is strongly coupled to Nintendo, so yes Let's Go and the fact that they no longer display your death count in Splatoon 2's post-match stats and replaced it with the number of times you activated your special (lol) are connected, since Nintendo is the common denominator.

Prime 4 has to deliver.
I don't see this going the way you think. It really just sounds like Nintendo isn't for you anymore.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,766
Because the root to all the negativity coming from fans is overall discontent with Switch as a platform, while the actual tidbit of news we got from the Pokemon director merely acts as an outlet for all that pent up rage. Each time they talk about dumbing their games down is like reopening a fresh wound. Forum discussion has always been an on-going kind of thing, where each thread is a continuation of the last, as opposed to reacting unbiased to isolated events. Other recent events affect your response. Pokemon is strongly coupled to Nintendo, so yes Let's Go and the fact that they no longer display your death count in Splatoon 2's post-match stats and replaced it with the number of times you activated your special (lol) are connected, since Nintendo is the common denominator.

Prime 4 has to deliver.

Discontent with Switch as a platform? Where? maybe in a few forums on Era, but overall Switch buzz has been almost nothing but positive. Pokemon Let's Go! is not the next generation of Pokemon, it's essentially a self-contained gaiden series. So anything that happens in the Let's Go! games, stays in the Let's Go! games. They already announced that a more conventional Pokemon game is coming to Switch in 2019, so it's not like this is all you're going to get.

the fact that they no longer display your death count in Splatoon 2's post-match stats and replaced it with the number of times you activated your special (lol) are connected, since Nintendo is the common denominator.

Who the fuck really cares about death count in a game where death doesn't really matter in the first place?
 

KCsoLucky

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,585
I think that there are elements of the Nintendo fanbase that are absurd in their reactions to things that don't fit their mold, as with other communities. And I can even concede that, in a lot of ways, the Nintendo fandom is more rife with examples of that attitude in action than others, and has been for a long, long time now - I think in large part due to a sense of entitlement that stems from people enjoying a franchise or concept for many years and then watching that franchise or concept change to suit an audience besides them. I felt as though the basis for the argument, in this case, was flawed, and may have been inspired moreso by this latest vitriolic overreaction from Nintendo fans, than by any reaction to things like Super Assist and Labo from the Nintendo fandom, because the reaction to those things from Nintendo fans specifically were mixed at best and largely positive or optimistic from my recollection.

Labo did get really positive reaction from Nintendo fans here, to the point that I was nearly rolled my eyes as even reasonable criticisms were swatted away. I'm not seeing it with that specific example. I don't remember the Assist in SMO or MK8 having a huge deal made of them either.
 
Oct 27, 2017
204
No one complained about Wii Sports or 1-2 Switch being "too casual." What do those two games have in common? They both released at the same time as a new Zelda title. Even the trolls hold their tongues about casual titles when there are also core titles to play.

That's the thing, such critics aren't really complaining about casual titles. They're upset because they feel there are not enough core titles and casual titles are an easy target to take out their frustration.

You wouldn't hear a peep about Labo or Let's Go if Prime 4 and/or Bayonetta 3 were coming out this year.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,964
No one complained about Wii Sports or 1-2 Switch being "too casual." What do those two games have in common? They both released at the same time as a new Zelda title. Even the trolls hold their tongues about casual titles when there are also core titles to play.
lol
you say that after a literal decade of "Nintendo abandoned us" from people online.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
No one complained about Wii Sports or 1-2 Switch being "too casual." What do those two games have in common? They both released at the same time as a new Zelda title. Even the trolls hold their tongues about casual titles when there are also core titles to play.

That's the thing, such critics aren't really complaining about casual titles. They're upset because they feel there are not enough core titles and casual titles are an easy target to take out their frustration.

You wouldn't hear a peep about Labo or Let's Go if Prime 4 and/or Bayonetta 3 were coming out this year.

Yes, they would. That would happen in any case.

And lol, no one complained about 1-2 Switch and Wii Sports? In what world?

Because Nintendo fucked up

- Retro Studios mismanagement
- A decrease in original 1st party software output
- Hardware consolidation did not bring increased variety
- The new Mario plays like a baby Kirby game
- Zelda dungeons are a thing of the past
- Changes to map design ruined Splatoon (too open and wide, quick access to mid from spawn point, no lanes or chokepoints => no structured play)
- 2018 lineup: Please enjoy Mario Tennis
- Only Smash at E3

This reads like a complete parody. And many of those points are false too.
 
Oct 27, 2017
204
Yes, they would. That would happen in any case.

And lol, no one complained about 1-2 Switch and Wii Sports? In what world?



This reads like a complete parody. And many of those points are false too.

It's not the same. Sure, some people complain about everything. There are the trolliest of trolls who complain about any game not made for them, even if they have plenty of games to play.

I don't know what internet you were on, but I barely heard anything, good or bad about 1-2 Switch. Most everyone ignored it. We were all too busy creaming our jeans over Breath of the Wild.
 

Apa504

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,291
No one complained about Wii Sports

You are talking about a whole generations of people saying that the only reason the wii sold so well was because grandpas and soccer moms bought it, and many saying that nintendo abandoned the harcore.

In fact the Wii was the beggining of the whole Hardcore vs Casual thing going on.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
The real question you should be asking is why Nintendo has such a poor opinion of casuals that they think they can't handle catching pokemon the old way, which was something most of us first did as children.
Probably for the same reason some Mario games now offer easy modes that pop up when you fail, why Fire Emblem now has a no-permadeath mode, why the VC games offer save states or why the NES and SNES classic offer both save states and rewind. It's not just Pokémon, it's Nintendo's approach to accessibility of its series across the board. Some mechanics we enjoyed years ago (and that I still enjoy now) are seen as frustrating to a modern audience of kids raised on intuitive touch controls and easier games that aren't reliant on pattern memorisation, reading instruction books, trial and error/failure leading to experimentation etc. Maybe 'y can't metroid crawl', the miiverse and consumer research supports it, I don't know.

I still love NES and GameBoy games and always will, but my friend's children find the constant failure in stuff like dodging Medusa heads in Castlevania or the maze levels in SMB an exercise in frustration when 'game over' pops up rather than rewarding for mastering it, probably the same way I struggle to sit in front of Atari games for more than an hour.
 
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Ometeotl

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
995
Yeah it's Nintendo fans that hate casuals, not the Sony/MS/PC fans that screamed about casuals ruining gaming because they made the Wii popular.
 

TheJollyCorner

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
9,507
My experience with many Nintendo fans over the age of 13... is that they are actually just fucking nuts. Just ravenous. :p
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,837

Damn, that's a fine explanation. A 2 hour video as a response

As for the OP, man, that all applies to many gamers online in general getting in their panties in a bunch when things don't go exactly how they want them too, from what games win awards to what scores they get to how they pander to the "filthy casuals" and so on
 

Dracon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
348
I see this hatred more among other fan bases towards Nintendo, the Nintendo fans just get triggered because it reminds them of those kiddie and toyish arguments to diminish Nintendo.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,837
what, you expect people NOT to take the opportunity to shit on nintendo and nintendo fans? that's crazy.
Oh absolutely not. After the GOTY thread, I know what to expect. Not to say that some Nintendo fans haven't done some shitty stuff, how Jim was treated was beyond deplorable, but, with how some folk post, you'd think they're a disease or something when there is just as much toxicity and annoying behavior from pretty much every fanbase on here

I can't get triggered if I'm always triggered ;)
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,135
You find this attitude on all platforms. The biggest question here though is what is with the recent blatant attack on Nintendo fans? I say this as not owning a nintendo since the wii, so it doesn't come from a place of self defense. Just something I've noticed on era lately.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
You are talking about a whole generations of people saying that the only reason the wii sold so well was because grandpas and soccer moms bought it, and many saying that nintendo abandoned the harcore.

In fact the Wii was the beggining of the whole Hardcore vs Casual thing going on.


But he/she makes a good point that at the time when wii sports released in November 2006, Nintendo also released Excite Truck and Zelda. People were not freaking out about the over casualization then, they were excited and praising Wii as a new revolution and at $250 sass exploded.

However in 2008, when the 1st party fall lineup was Animal Crossing and Wii Music, and NSMB being their fall 2009 game...the Wii's (and subsequently Nintendo's) reputation was damaged and Wii sales suffered.

Luckily in 2010 Nintendo gave Wii a good honest effort...but it fell of a cliff in 2011, in sales, reputation, and software releases.

It's simply a matter of balance on the spectrum of core and casual releases. In certain years Nintendo has been accused of being too casual (or kiddy) and not focusing on the core. It seems Nintendo often leans more casual than a lot of us on message boards would want.

I'd say in the current state we are in, people seem okay with Labo and 1-2 Switch, as well as Tomadachi Life and the Mii games on 3DS. That's because Nintendo has been delivering a lot of core games on 3DS and Switch.

However, this year has leaned a little too casual for my liking, with seemingly only Smash Bros as a more core game, and that's Namco anyways. It seems this year I've heard more complaints about Nintendo leaning too casual, with a focus on Pokemon Let's Go and Mario Party.

I'm sure once all of those core games they announced come rolling people will be more positive.
 

klee123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,104
How can they hate the casual when that is what made the Wii and DS the massive hits they were.

If anything, they should be thanking the casual for making Nintendo the filthy rich company they are today.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969


Gees a 2 hour video?

It's neat to make comparisons between Odyssey and Kirby with the copy abilities and stuff, but saying Odyssey was too much like Kirby is certainly not a legitimate complaint on the game. One is a 2D sidescroller and the other is a 3D sandbox. I mean, like, cmon.

Odyssey might have other issues, but listing being too much like Kirby as a way 'Nintendo fucked up' just seems....like, I'm sorry I have no words. Goodnight people.
 

Dinobot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,126
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
This isn't exclusive to Nintendo fans or the video game industry.

There's always the enthusiast fans who take issue with the dumbing down or creation of products that doesn't cater to them.
 

Apa504

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,291
But he/she makes a good point that at the time when wii sports released in November 2006, Nintendo also released Excite Truck and Zelda. People were not freaking out about the over casualization then, they were excited and praising Wii as a new revolution and at $250 sass exploded.

However in 2008, when the 1st party fall lineup was Animal Crossing and Wii Music, and NSMB being their fall 2009 game...the Wii's (and subsequently Nintendo's) reputation was damaged and Wii sales suffered.

Luckily in 2010 Nintendo gave Wii a good honest effort...but it fell of a cliff in 2011, in sales, reputation, and software releases.

It's simply a matter of balance on the spectrum of core and casual releases. In certain years Nintendo has been accused of being too casual (or kiddy) and not focusing on the core. It seems Nintendo often leans more casual than a lot of us on message boards would want.

I'd say in the current state we are in, people seem okay with Labo and 1-2 Switch, as well as Tomadachi Life and the Mii games on 3DS. That's because Nintendo has been delivering a lot of core games on 3DS and Switch.

However, this year has leaned a little too casual for my liking, with seemingly only Smash Bros as a more core game, and that's Namco anyways. It seems this year I've heard more complaints about Nintendo leaning too casual, with a focus on Pokemon Let's Go and Mario Party.

I'm sure once all of those core games they announced come rolling people will be more positive.

I used to think like you, but from my own experience in GAF and now Reset era I gotta say that no. And i say, own experience because i got warnings, for getting railed up discussing with some guys here, that want Nintendo to go almost bankrupt, so then Nintendo can apologise for making things like Labo and 1,2 switch and then, they want Nintendo to buy every studio on earth so we can have a New golden age of Hardcore Nintendo.

The same happens with Pokemon. People want the games to fail so much, so Nintendo can get rid of Game freak and make the Pokemon breath of the wild that every one wants.
All of this despite known that a more "core" pokemon game is coming the next year.
 

TheJollyCorner

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
9,507
Oh absolutely not. After the GOTY thread, I know what to expect. Not to say that some Nintendo fans haven't done some shitty stuff, how Jim was treated was beyond deplorable, but, with how some folk post, you'd think they're a disease or something when there is just as much toxicity and annoying behavior from pretty much every fanbase on here


I can't get triggered if I'm always triggered ;)

Gah! I got warned for my behavior!
I apologize, SuperFakerBros. No hard feelings. :}
 

Mysterio79

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,159
The hate Nintendo gets in general is absolutely ridiculous and I assume most of it comes from people who aren't actually their fans.

It's quite entertaining from the pov that Nintendo always seem to win in the end. No matter how much people bad mouth them it just ends up as pie in their face with Nintendo laughing their way to the bank.

These people may want to consider waiting another 189 years for them to go third party.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,964
But he/she makes a good point that at the time when wii sports released in November 2006, Nintendo also released Excite Truck and Zelda. People were not freaking out about the over casualization then, they were excited and praising Wii as a new revolution and at $250 sass exploded.

However in 2008, when the 1st party fall lineup was Animal Crossing and Wii Music, and NSMB being their fall 2009 game...the Wii's (and subsequently Nintendo's) reputation was damaged and Wii sales suffered.

Luckily in 2010 Nintendo gave Wii a good honest effort...but it fell of a cliff in 2011, in sales, reputation, and software releases.

It's simply a matter of balance on the spectrum of core and casual releases. In certain years Nintendo has been accused of being too casual (or kiddy) and not focusing on the core. It seems Nintendo often leans more casual than a lot of us on message boards would want.

I'd say in the current state we are in, people seem okay with Labo and 1-2 Switch, as well as Tomadachi Life and the Mii games on 3DS. That's because Nintendo has been delivering a lot of core games on 3DS and Switch.

However, this year has leaned a little too casual for my liking, with seemingly only Smash Bros as a more core game, and that's Namco anyways. It seems this year I've heard more complaints about Nintendo leaning too casual, with a focus on Pokemon Let's Go and Mario Party.

I'm sure once all of those core games they announced come rolling people will be more positive.
What are you talking about?
From DAY1 the wii was dismissed as casual trash to be burned
Like we even got articles out there about that
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/gaming/2006/11/nintendont.html
Everything about the console is designed to welcome casual gamers
We even articles explaining the phenomenon
http://www.lostgarden.com/2005/09/nintendos-genre-innovation-strategy.html
 

Deleted member 24540

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,599
Gees a 2 hour video?

It's neat to make comparisons between Odyssey and Kirby with the copy abilities and stuff, but saying Odyssey was too much like Kirby is certainly not a legitimate complaint on the game. One is a 2D sidescroller and the other is a 3D sandbox. I mean, like, cmon.

Odyssey might have other issues, but listing being too much like Kirby as a way 'Nintendo fucked up' just seems....like, I'm sorry I have no words. Goodnight people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJx5xt2cB0&t=34m0s

I linked to the relevant part, starting at minute 34 and it goes on for 3 minutes. The rest of the video is him backing up his opinion that it's a children's game (hence my reference to Kirby and it's lack of challenge and complexity) with an insane amount of examples. He goes through all of the Moon-types and explains/shows precisely what's wrong with the game and why it's uncharacteristically simplistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJx5xt2cB0&t=37m40s

This part is also worth a watch, if you can tolerate a bit of sarcasm. Quite clever if you ask me. It highlights the fact that Odyssey features a flat difficulty curve, meaning that there is little to no ramping up throughout the game.
 

Shauni

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,728
I don't think this is unique to Nintendo fans and seems to be a common sentiment among a lot of gamers that are fans of various companies.

Edit: I can't understand it either to be honest. If they are successful it just leads to a healthier industry overall and they aren't going to abandon core games (any of the Console Manufacturers).

It definitely is not unique to Nintendo fans. Lol, that is just some complete nonsense.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,662
Because Nintendo fucked up

- Retro Studios mismanagement
- A decrease in original 1st party software output
- Hardware consolidation did not bring increased variety
- The new Mario plays like a baby Kirby game
- Zelda dungeons are a thing of the past
- Changes to map design ruined Splatoon (too open and wide, quick access to mid from spawn point, no lanes or chokepoints => no structured play)
- 2018 lineup: Please enjoy Mario Tennis
- Only Smash at E3

Cmon now. The large majority of those aren't even rude.

2018 only has Mario Tennis? Really then what is Smash, Octopath Traveler, Sushi Striker, Kirby Star Allies, Labo, Super Mario party...that's not even counting the ports Nintendo did.

Also you must have seen a different E3 presentation of the only game you saw was Smash at E3.
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,662
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJx5xt2cB0&t=34m0s

I linked to the relevant part, starting at minute 34 and it goes on for 3 minutes. The rest of the video is him backing up his opinion that it's a children's game (hence my reference to Kirby and it's lack of challenge and complexity) with an insane amount of examples. He goes through all of the Moon-types and explains/shows precisely what's wrong with the game and why it's uncharacteristically simplistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJx5xt2cB0&t=37m40s

This part is also worth a watch, if you can tolerate a bit of sarcasm. Quite clever if you ask me. It highlights the fact that Odyssey features a flat difficulty curve, meaning that there is little to no ramping up throughout the game.

Wow, that's really telling that you didn't bring up the extra worlds which is some of the hardest content in Mario games. Almost as if the game focused on exploring and not pure platforming...strange.

Nintendo themselves said they added moons for all difficulty ages. Which means you have your easy moons to get and then there's much harder moons. There's 999 of them in the game. You can't reasonably expect each one to be a challenge.
 

Lizardus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,276
Children often cry when they think that their parents aren't giving them enough attention. Hopefully they will grow up :/
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
What are you talking about?
From DAY1 the wii was dismissed as casual trash to be burned
Like we even got articles out there about that
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/gaming/2006/11/nintendont.html


Yeah but wii sales started strong even among core gamers too, it was only after a couple years that sales fell off a cliff and the casual image started being damaging to their brand.

I wouldn't say Nintendo's brand is hurting right now in being too casual.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
The specific issue with Pokémon Let's Go is that it's part of a very concerning overall trend with Game Freak, who, at least for the past 5 years or so, have a predisposition for making things overly handholdy due perceived accessibility issues. The fact that they're willing to go as far as they are, and the general lack of confidence that real mainline games will manage to escape unscathed is what's provoking the reaction.

This could have all been avoided if Game Freak had managed to inspire more faith in people that they wouldn't just dumb things down for no reason.
 

Deleted member 24540

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,599
Wow, that's really telling that you didn't bring up the extra worlds which is some of the hardest content in Mario games. Almost as if the game focused on exploring and not pure platforming...strange.

Nintendo themselves said they added moons for all difficulty ages. Which means you have your easy moons to get and then there's much harder moons. There's 999 of them in the game. You can't reasonably expect each one to be a challenge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYJx5xt2cB0&t=43m42s
 

the lizard

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,885
I think it stems out of a fundamental misunderstanding of the marketing process that goes into games. On the one hand, the Labo thing definitely came with a resource cost for Nintendo that could have gone to more "hardcore" gaming. On the other hand, Nintendo must try to appeal to broader audiences; it's a business after all, and a publicly traded business at that.
 

Bakercat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,154
'merica
I don't mind stuff that's specifically targeted to young children (Labo) or features added to help those join in that don't play games often (track assist in MK8D or assist mode in Mario odyssey), but when developers change games completely to only grab casuals while completely neglecting their current fan base's interests (paper mario, Pokémon lets go, etc.) that's when I question what's going on.
 

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
This is something that has been happening for years now but seems to have been brought back this year. People have been overreacting with extreme vitriol to any Switch news they deem as a "casualization". Like take the LABO release that was released earlier this year. Some people still hold a grudge to this game's existence for almost entirely selfish reasons (why don't they make games I want) and will make sure everyone knows it. But it also permeates with a lot of other games. People seem afraid that casuals will somehow take their games away either directly or because some faulty logic in where every game that is created that is casual somehow means that the niche game they want is being denied.

Like, Nintendo has always done a mix of casual and hardcore. The NES came with a toy robot for crying out loud! This idea that Nintendo is "abandoning the hardcore for the casual" or the hatred of casual games is always silly because casual games has always been a part of Nintendo's history. Some of its most successful series (Animal Crossing, Kirby) are built entirely as casual games. So I'm always utterly baffled by this seemingly growing (more than usual) antagonism against anything deemed "casual".
I still don't understand why you are singling out Nintendo fans, this would be the case (possibly even worse) with people who are not Nintendo fans. Make a thread about making an easy mode for a hard game on PS4 and you'll see. Personally I have Labo and love it, but are Nintendo fans somehow supposed to be more "immune" than other fans, just because Nintendo has had more of this mix?

Also, take into account that at least some (some) of the more extreme responses in Nintendo related threads see are concern trolling
 
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