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Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
If he gets sent to the US he's dead. That isn't a good thing.
Hardly. He'd probably be handed down the same sentence Manning did, except with no hope of being commuted. The harshness of Manning's sentence aside (far too messed up comparable to her crimes), there was zero chance of dying.

If Assange gets extradited to the US, one would expect something similar. Though I'd imagine most would have him go to Sweden instead.
 

Deleted member 12352

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,203
Good stuff, but Trump will save him somehow sadly.

If not though, then I wish him nothing but the very worst.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
He can expose war crimes, torture and murder on the right and people just forget about it.

As soon as he shows something about the left, people want to lock him up without trial or rights.

And let's not forget, the stuff leaked was pretty damn evil. Showing that the DNC is a completely biased and undemocratic organization that blocks the will of the voters and favors candidates behind the scenes.

I'm sure damn glad I learned that, and am grateful it was leaked.

Nah what he revealed was that he's a tool of Russian intelligence and hurt the Clinton campaign so Trump could win. Weird how he didn't agree to leak the manafort emails, RNC emails or anything about the Russian government or it's allies.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
It's more complicated than most posters are making it out to be.

Assange's organization released classified documents which exposed American war atrocities under the Bush (and Obama) administrations. For instance, this was leaked:

https://web.archive.org/web/2016043.../wiki/Camp_Delta_Standard_Operating_Procedure

Along with other documents about the torture of prisoners of war (a war crime).

In addition, Wikileaks exposed that the Obama administration was lying about hostile casualty totals, or camouflaging civilian murders as being elimination of enemy hostiles in order to obfuscate the actuality of the conflict to the American people.

So Assange and Wikileaks did great good, at first; there's a lot of stuff that they leaked and I'm just providing two quick examples. Ultimately though Assange has become a controversial and reviled figure. He has been accused of rape (it is incorrect to say that he is a rapist as of yet) by the Swedish government, and charged with a count of rape as well as three charges of molestation. The lesser charges have been dropped, but there is still a Swedish warrant out for his arrest for the rape charge.

Julian Assange is an abrasive person and I agree with the general consensus here that he's an asshole. The Ecuadorian embassy gave him asylum and he took advantage of their generosity in countless ways. There is also credible evidence that he acted as a mouthpiece for Vladimir Putin and his Russian regime to harm America's reputation in the world. Though I'd argue to that point that George W. Bush and Barack Obama's actions in the Iraq and Afghan theaters and their handling of the "war on terror" in general did far more to harm the world's opinion of the United States than anything that Assange or Russia did.

There's a lot of information out there about Assange and Wikileaks. It's worth taking a few hours to read up on it. The situation around Assange is complex.

Not to mention edited documents, preferential leaks only against US/Western interests, and clear Russian propaganda and antisemitism spewed out by the Wikileaks Twitter account of the past few years. The organization is a rotten stooge, from Assange on down.

Nah what he revealed was that he's a tool of Russian intelligence and hurt the Clinton campaign so Trump could win. Weird how he didn't agree to leak the manafort emails, RNC emails or anything about the Russian government or it's allies.

Remember Wikileaks panning the Panama paper leak since it showed connections to Putin and his oligarchs? That was fun.
 

Sirpopopop

_ _ _ w _ _ _
Member
Oct 23, 2017
794
He can expose war crimes, torture and murder on the right and people just forget about it.

As soon as he shows something about the left, people want to lock him up without trial or rights.

And let's not forget, the stuff leaked was pretty damn evil. Showing that the DNC is a completely biased and undemocratic organization that blocks the will of the voters and favors candidates behind the scenes.

I'm sure damn glad I learned that, and am grateful it was leaked.

How did the DNC block the will of the voters if the majority of voters voted for Hillary Clinton in the primary?
 
User banned (1 week): downplaying the use of waterboarding as torture
It also forbids extraditing someone for charges carrying a potential death penalty.
Didn't happen to Manning, Won't happen now. Worst case is that he'll have to swallow a splash of water and cough up a confession with explanation.

dXuwLms.png

Followed by a permanent residence at a lovely one-person accommodation along the cuban beach with surround-sound system, and helpful strobe lights to prevent him from nodding off in the night and gratuitory cavity searches.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,693
One of the interesting details coming from the Mariia Butina thing is that officially accredited Embassy vehicles are legally considered extensions of Embassy grounds in large part. They cannot be searched or generally interfered with. Once in one, if Russia wants to protect you, you're safe. So, there could be a quite interesting scene when Assange is ejected as he tries to make it from the doorstep into a Russian Embassy car through the British police waiting for him, haha.
 
Nov 4, 2017
2,203
How did the DNC block the will of the voters if the majority of voters voted for Hillary Clinton in the primary?
Paragraph 1 on wikipedia confirms what I'm saying. There's 108 sources listed at the bottom for the page.

Wikipedia said:
"The 2016 Democratic National Committee email leak is a collection of Democratic National Committee (DNC) emails stolen by Russian intelligence agency hackers and subsequently published (leaked) by DCLeaks in June and July 2016[1] and by WikiLeaks on July 22, 2016, during the 2016 Democratic National Convention. This collection included 19,252 emails and 8,034 attachments from the DNC, the governing body of the United States' Democratic Party.[2] The leak includes emails from seven key DNC staff members, and date from January 2015 to May 2016.[3] The leaked contents, which suggested the party's leadership had worked to sabotage Bernie Sanders' presidential campaign, prompted the resignation of DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz before the Democratic National Convention.[4] After the convention, DNC CEO Amy Dacey, CFO Brad Marshall, and Communications Director Luis Miranda also resigned in the wake of the controversy.[5]"

While voters did vote for Clinton in larger numbers, that was after a full campaign run under unequal conditions. No one is disputing the votes themselves, but rather the conduct of the organization that was not impartial, and how that influenced voters unfairly. "The will of the voters" is what they decide when they are shown candidates fairly and impartially, instead of being constantly manipulated.
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,623
And let's not forget, the stuff leaked was pretty damn evil. Showing that the DNC is a completely biased and undemocratic organization that blocks the will of the voters and favors candidates behind the scenes.
Certain high-ranking members did prefer Hillary to Bernie (which would I think would be plenty obvious before those emails were leaked anyway, given the anti-establishment tenor of Bernie's whole campaign; he wasn't running against entrenched officials because those officials liked him!) but they did not impede the will of the voters, come on. It's not like a majority of votes and a majority of delegates opted for Bernie, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz went "Not so fast losers! I'm giving the nomination to Hillary!!!" and that was that. She won that primary contest by a pretty decisive margin in votes and pledged delegates, and performed better in primaries where more voters participated (compared to caucuses where Bernie performed better but there were fewer people voting).

The only instance of the DNC possibly moving to block the will of voters actually came from Donna Brazille's book, rather than the leaked emails, where she said she contemplated throwing Hillary and Kaine off the ticket in September and replacing them with Biden and Booker. Now that would've been an egregious, undemocratic power move of overruling the will of the voters. But obviously that didn't happen, and it occurred months after the primary anyway.

Paragraph 1 on wikipedia confirms what I'm saying. There's 108 sources listed at the bottom for the page.



While voters did vote for Clinton in larger numbers, that was after a full campaign run under unequal conditions. No one is disputing the votes themselves, but rather the conduct of the organization that was not impartial, and how that influenced voters unfairly.

I've got news for you: all campaigns are run under unequal conditions. Candidates don't all start on an even playing field. In every race, in every election year, some candidates are going to have advantages (money, party support, endorsements, etc.) that others in that same race don't. They don't all come off the same starting line. Sometimes those advantages work, sometimes they don't. Donald Trump and Barack Obama did not start their campaigns as the preferred choice of their party's establishment, and yet they both became president.
 
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pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
Has he ever been convicted of rape in a court of law?

It is literally astonishing to me that people will look at a guy who fled MULTIPLE COUNTRIES to avoid facing a court for rape charges and say "well, he's presumptively innocent."

Actually, fleeing the justice process is generally considered to be suggestive of guilt.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
Certain high-ranking members did prefer Hillary to Bernie (which would I think would be plenty obvious before those emails were leaked anyway, given the anti-establishment tenor of Bernie's whole campaign; he wasn't running against entrenched officials because those officials liked him!) but they did not impede the will of the voters, come on. It's not like a majority of votes and a majority of delegates opted for Bernie, and Debbie Wasserman Schultz went "Not so fast losers! I'm giving the nomination to Hillary!!!" and that was that. She won that primary contest by a pretty decisive margin in votes and pledged delegates, and performed better in primaries where more voters participated (compared to caucuses where Bernie performed better but there were fewer people voting).

The only instance of the DNC possibly moving to block the will of voters actually came from Donna Brazille's book, rather than the leaked emails, where she said she contemplated throwing Hillary and Kaine off the ticket in September and replacing them with Biden and Booker. Now that would've been an egregious, undemocratic power move of overruling the will of the voters. But obviously that didn't happen, and it occurred months after the primary anyway.



I've got news for you: all campaigns are run under unequal conditions. Candidates don't all start on an even playing field. In every race, in every election year, some candidates are going to have advantages (money, party support, endorsements, etc.) that others in that same race don't. They don't all come off the same starting line. Sometimes those advantages work, sometimes they don't. Donald Trump and Barack Obama did not start their campaigns as the preferred choice of their party's establishment, and yet they both became president.

Well said.
 

JayC3

bork bork
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
3,857
Paragraph 1 on wikipedia confirms what I'm saying. There's 108 sources listed at the bottom for the page.

While voters did vote for Clinton in larger numbers, that was after a full campaign run under unequal conditions. No one is disputing the votes themselves, but rather the conduct of the organization that was not impartial, and how that influenced voters unfairly. "The will of the voters" is what they decide when they are shown candidates fairly and impartially, instead of being constantly manipulated.
This feels a little bit like the Republican arguments against Peter Strzok, that because he stated negative things about Trump in his text messages, that all activities that he was involved in are suspect and that the entire operation investigating Trump is tainted. So the question is whether those emails were just DNC staffers venting or did they actually do anything to improperly tilt the primaries towards Clinton. Here's what one of the Wapo articles linked says:
Many of these emails came as it was clear Clinton was going to win -- which makes the apparent favoritism perhaps less offensive (though Sanders supporters would certainly disagree).

But it's also clear that there was plenty of cheerleading for the race to simply be over -- for Sanders to throw in the towel so that Clinton could be named the presumptive nominee. The party, of course, was still supposed to be neutral even though the odds and delegate deficit for Sanders looked insurmountable.
And many of the worst suggestions were either shot down or never implemented. So in the end, Clinton already had an insurmountable lead, and as a result, it just looks like frustrated venting to me. Regardless, it was unprofessional and inappropriate to do so, and most or all of them either resigned or were fired.

On the topic of Assange, being stuck in that embassy has never seemed like a tenable situation long term. Regarding his Wikileaks activity in particular though, I feel like he could be charged (if the evidence shows it) under conspiracy to commit fraud against the United States (which is what many of the Russian actors have already been charged with). This would sidestep the issue of also having to charge whistleblowers and newspapers.
 
Nov 4, 2017
2,203
Seems a shitty move on Ecuador's part. What's changed?
https://theintercept.com/2018/07/21...-and-hand-him-over-to-the-uk-what-comes-next/

This article covers most of it pretty well. The government has changed, and is more aligned with western interests. And Assange angered them by speaking out against human rights abuses of Catalonian independence protesters. And then hacked their communications after being blocked from the internet and all outside communication for 3 years.
 

pigeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,447
I don't really see why he would. Being as harsh as possible towards Assange would be an easy win for Trump

So would doing a press conference with Putin where he said "Putin, you're bad" or saying that a Nazi who murdered an American citizen in a terrorist attack was a bad guy and that Nazis in general were bad.

edit: beaten due to Russian hackers
 

gesicht

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
User Banned (3 Days): Bad Faith Posting.

Nobility

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,020
I wonder how many countries right now are having meetings trying to figure out how to get him first.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
I skimmed the article you liked and could find nothing conclusive to this effect. At this stage I feel more likely to side with Assange than anything from the US gubbernment.
The US has nothing to do with this. The extradition request is from the UK to Ecuador, and the US hasn't even asked for him as of yet. Chances are if he's going anywhere to face trial, it'll be Sweden.
 

gesicht

Member
Oct 25, 2017
282
The US has nothing to do with this. The extradition request is from the UK to Ecuador, and the US hasn't even asked for him as of yet. Chances are if he's going anywhere to face trial, it'll be Sweden.

Well, yes. And from there? I think the argument Assange has always made is that Sweden will extradite him to the US.
 

Xe4

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,295
Well, yes. And from there? I think the argument Assange has always made is that Sweden will extradite him to the US.
Prison in Sweden, probably. They have a pretty good case against him, and running away from trial doesn't look good to those presiding over it.
 
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Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,343
He can expose war crimes, torture and murder on the right and people just forget about it.

As soon as he shows something about the left, people want to lock him up without trial or rights.

And let's not forget, the stuff leaked was pretty damn evil. Showing that the DNC is a completely biased and undemocratic organization that blocks the will of the voters and favors candidates behind the scenes.

I'm sure damn glad I learned that, and am grateful it was leaked.
What bullshit. He became a mouthpiece for Russia, having the Wikileaks Twitter peddle their conspiracies like Ukrainians shooting down the Netherland plane that was shot down by seperatists armed and helped by Russia, and is proven to withhold leaks that would damage Republicans, although his supposed ideology is to leak everything unredacted. Like leaks of social security numbers or leaks of peoples sexual orientation in countries where it could mean their death.

Any good his leaks may have done in uncovering war crimes quickly disappeared by him acting like the biggest stooge there is.

And don't get me started in how you're defending him fleeing a rape trial as "He's not convicted!!", of course not, he fled from the fucking trial.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,426
He has supposedly breached the communications firewall allowing him to access Ecuadorian embassy staff internal communications. He did this after being blocked from all internet access and outside communications for 3 years because he denounced human rights abuses.
Huh? Assange breached the embassy's communications in fall 2014. He hadn't even been in the embassy for 3 years, let alone cut off from all outside communication for that long (which I don't think ever happened?) He was cut off for the Catalonian stuff this March.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,343
Wikileaks has also peddled literal antisemitic conspiracies publically. Come the fuck on.
 

Deleted member 42

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
16,939
I skimmed the article you linked and could find nothing conclusive to this effect. At this stage I feel more likely to side with Assange than anything from the US gubbernment.

Ecuador granted him asylum for years and their reward was him trying to get into their shit

They don't remove asylum like this unless you do some really insane shit
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,563
Paragraph 1 on wikipedia confirms what I'm saying. There's 108 sources listed at the bottom for the page.



While voters did vote for Clinton in larger numbers, that was after a full campaign run under unequal conditions. No one is disputing the votes themselves, but rather the conduct of the organization that was not impartial, and how that influenced voters unfairly. "The will of the voters" is what they decide when they are shown candidates fairly and impartially, instead of being constantly manipulated.


This narrative keeps going, keeps seeding the chaos amongst the left that Putin wants. Even in light of Bernie's own staff saying that the nomination wasn't stolen from them.
 
Nov 4, 2017
2,203
This narrative keeps going, keeps seeding the chaos amongst the left that Putin wants. Even in light of Bernie's own staff saying that the nomination wasn't stolen from them.
It's not a "narrative." It's reality, sourced by over 100 sources on the most mainstream e-encyclopeida in the world.

This is the most mainstream account of what happened out there. If I acknowledge reality, Putin wins? Is that what you're saying?

If the left doesn't want to keep "sowing chaos," maybe they can start backing the most popular senator in the country.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,563
It's not a "narrative." It's reality, sourced by over 100 sources on the most mainstream e-encyclopeida in the world.

This is the most mainstream account of what happened out there. If I acknowledge reality, Putin wins? Is that what you're saying?


I'd say you should probably believe Bernie when his people tell you no one stole the election from them.