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AndrewDean84

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,595
Fontana, California
I don't like this complete lack of a middle ground to some people. Apparently you either have to be a sack-of-shit harasser, or defend everything Sean Murray said.

Like, let's make it clear that harassing someone online and sending death threats is NEVER okay. The gaming community is a cesspool of godawful people that ruin the lives of others for the pettiest of reasons.

But at the same time, let's not act as if Murray didn't outright lie to people about what would be in the game. Let's not forget that completely fake E3 showing, and let's not forget that Murray and his team went radio silent for two years, refusing to give (the non-degenerates) answers about why the game was shipped in an awful, unfinished state that looked nothing like previews.

Obviously, people should also know better than to just blindly buy games at launch as well.
Well said. It's not A or B. Sean didn't deserve the death threats, but let's not act like he shouldn't have some serous criticism thrown his way.

As much as he (and his team) have added to their product, I'll still take news from him with a grain of salt.
 

zombiejames

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,918
i flat stated i never purchased the game, and was in the crowd outraged for day 1 for seeing people get ripped off. can i not denounce lies and misleading from a developer if i didn't buy their game? can i denounce the business practice of garnering initial funds using deceit, and THEN using some of those funds to fix your shit? or denounce the idea that that suddenly makes the initial practice OK?

Wait, hold on. You're against the state the game lunched at and you're against them improving the game?
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,060
That Guardian article paints him in an extremely favorable and sympathetic light.

The harassment is despicable. Murray should also be asked more direct questions about the lies.
 

FunkyMonkey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,419
Oh please. This is why I described you as such. You clearly don't know the first thing about any of this, and yet here you are, acting like Sean Murray pissed in your cereal.

You're acting like the ENTIRE GAME was based on nothing but lies. You can point to things that are missing. You can point to things he was vague about. But one thing is inarguable: multiplayer was never, ever touted as being a main pillar of this game. To then come around as say that his vagueness is what raked in the money; the "lies" about multiplayer and butterflies, is just complete and utter horseshit.

you summarizing everything he misled and lied about pre-launch as "butterflies and multi-player" means you're not arguing in good faith and being purposefully disingenuous. oh please, indeed

and yes, his vagueness did help rake in the money, you can read early reviews and gaming forums and see it explicitly so for fucks sake
 

MrConbon210

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,647
Oh please. This is why I described you as such. You clearly don't know the first thing about any of this, and yet here you are, acting like Sean Murray pissed in your cereal.

You're acting like the ENTIRE GAME was based on nothing but lies. You can point to things that are missing. You can point to things he was vague about. But one thing is inarguable: multiplayer was never, ever touted as being a main pillar of this game. To then come around as say that his vagueness is what raked in the money; the "lies" about multiplayer and butterflies, is just complete and utter horseshit.

You're replying to a guy who spent a long time sending his friend a picture of Sean Murray to mock him for buying the game. Obviously you aren't going to have a mesngiful discussion with him.
 

FunkyMonkey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,419
You're replying to a guy who spent a long time sending his friend a picture of Sean Murray to mock him for buying the game. Obviously you aren't going to have a mesngiful discussion with him.

it takes you a long time to copy and paste a picture? i can give you some pointers for that, PM me if you'd like some, champ!
 

nib95

Contains No Misinformation on Philly Cheesesteaks
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,498
I, for one, never knew about the flood. Interesting.

The bolded part of your post is the big takeaway that I'm afraid a lot of people (including devs in the future) will gloss over. I truly believe if they did what you stated, (and thus given people time to re-evaluate the purchase) it would have cut the negativity about the game in 1/2. The majority of the rest would have been cut as like you state more eloquently: Transparency and Open Communication = good; Silence and Avoidance = bad

That's the thing though, all the other stuff is at E3 conferences, post shows etc, getting tens of millions of views, but news about the flood was covered by a a slew of gaming outlets but barely got anywhere near the same traction in terms of coverage or views. I bet a lot or most people who berate Sean Murray and Hello Games don't even know about the flood.
 

Deleted member 44129

User requested account closure
Banned
May 29, 2018
7,690
The bit I don't understand is while they've admirally spent the last 2 years improving the game, where is the money coming from? What's the financial incentive?
 

Deleted member 15538

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,387
He didn't have to do shit as NMS at launch was not broken trash and sales were no joke. They deserve some credit here, hope to see it on ps+ or really cheap just to check it out as I just have too many games to get involved really. But it's definitely promising for a next project, they're a pretty good studio and I enjoyed the Joe Danger games too.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
you summarizing everything he misled and lied about pre-launch as "butterflies and multi-player" means you're not arguing in good faith being purposefully disingenuous. oh please, indeed
No please, what else? Show me the marketing where you have game A, and you have what eventually released, and show me the differences.

Trouble is, you wouldn't even be able to say what the game played like or even entailed, because all you're actually familiar with is hearsay from "your side of the camp", and some misleading youtube buzzfeed-style lists that nitpick even every mirage of a fault.

Let me inform you, as someone who has played the game at launch. I played a game that looked pretty cool, played pretty great, became pretty dull after 30 ish hours of play, and nailed about 80 percent of what they set out to do. In the end, taking into account the shitstorm, I have been more let down by game with far bigger budgets and teams plenty of times.
 

Dussck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,136
The Netherlands
Imagine being this angry at a videogame developer years later. Imagine being that sad of a human being.

I bet 99% of these 'death threats' are from 10 year olds going nuts on the internet. Just because I can't in my right mind even imagine an adult interested in a spacegame could be so angry that he threatens the developer for not putting butterflies in there.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,157
User Banned (2 Days): Downplaying harassment
Get out of here with this bullshit please.

But it still doesn't warrant any harrasment especially when it comes to death threats etc

It's a fucking game. If it wasn't what was advertised then judge with your wallet, don't do criminal shit.

Gamers dude, justifying the most vicious shit for a few pixels and animations.

you guys need to

1. learn to differentitate between harrassment and justified criticism.

2. read that post again. i never said harrassment is justifiable. most of the noise during NMS launch was NOT harrassment, most of that was people justifiably calling out Sean for lying: "hey, i think its bullshit that you lied to sell your game".

what sean is essentially doing in this interview is exaggerating the amount of harassment he got while downplaying the shit he pulled. Got "a little excited" huh? really? is that what you did Sean?
 
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Sherlocked

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
562
Threats are horrible and should not be given to anyone especially for a video game but you people acting like Hello Games didn't mislead the public with their product are not being honest.



So? The core problem is still that people are way too emotionally invested in stuff like this.

Additionally people should create more consciousness regarding products. No one is forced to buy NMS. No one is forced to give in artificial built hype. No one has a single right on anything just because Murray told something in an interview.

I personally think most consumers today behave like a horde of sheep with pitchforks.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,550
You can put your best effort forward and still say "Here's a post to clarify some things - seeing other players will not be a feature at launch. We tried our very best, but it didn't work out. Players will still see planets, flora and fauna you've named. We hope to implement seeing other players post-launch. Thanks".
That was my problem with it.

Their page "WHAT DO YOU DO IN NO MAN'S SKY?" had interview in it where he spoke about the multiplayer/seeing other player.
All that page needed was something along the line of : "A very light multiplayer was envisioned for launch, and we fought right up until the end to add it, but it was immensely challenging and we knew it was something that only a handful of people would experience due to the size of the universe ( quote from this interview, see it wasn't hard to say.... ), sadly it couldn't make it for release, but look forward for our continued support of the game.".

That's all you need to go from "try to make money from lies" to "game dev is hard for everyone/hyped developer who spoke a little too much a little too soon". ( at least when it comes to the multiplayer, I can't remember about other aspect of the game 2 years latter )
 

ResoRai

Member
Nov 4, 2017
217
The game wasn't pitched as an early access product that would be completed two years later.


My entry into this thread was to respond to people attempting to re-write the history of this game and the story surrounding it's launch.
That is not keeping a hate train going, it's calling out false narratives when you see them.

And hand waving? Please, go ahead and tell me what role I played in the harassment of Sean Murray. If criticizing people's actions online now makes you an accessory to those who threaten harm on others, well then, I guess you've just found a way to shut down criticism of everything. Congrats.
I've seen this a lot and I'm not trying to single you out, but it seems like a lot of you (as in this thread altogether) are arguing against different aspects of this situation while treating the person you're responding to as the group of people you disagree with in that specific aspect, if that makes sense lol.

Some of you are expressing you're anger, disagreement, etc., meant for someone else towards the person you're talking to and theyre in a completely different lane.
 

FunkyMonkey

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,419
...I'm referring to the length of the days/weeks you sent the picture. Which is incredibly petty to judge a friend for buying a video game.

to be fair, he complained to me about the game many times and i ribbed him about it. i didn't spam pics of the dev to him randomly off topic while at work during the day or something, it was topical. and we both thought it was hilarious especially because i warned him before launch. but if that's all people take away from what i wrote then alright

No please, what else? Show me the marketing where you have game A, and you have what eventually released, and show me the differences.

Trouble is, you wouldn't even be able to say what the game played like or even entailed, because all you're actually familiar with is hearsay from "your side of the camp", and some misleading youtube buzzfeed-style lists that nitpick even every mirage of a fault.

Let me inform you, as someone who has played the game at launch. I played a game that looked pretty cool, played pretty great, became pretty dull after 30 ish hours of play, and nailed about 80 percent of what they set out to do. In the end, taking into account the shitstorm, I have been more let down by game with far bigger budgets and teams plenty of times.

this basically boils down to you enjoying the game and others not, which is fine. my criticism is not directed towards people like you at all, and i didn't mean for it to seem like it. you do you
 
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Snowybreak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,329
The bit I don't understand is while they've admirally spent the last 2 years improving the game, where is the money coming from? What's the financial incentive?

The money is coming from the people who bought it. And they're releasing a new SKU, so they're probably going to get an influx of cash from that, which will probably be used for even further development. It's not like they took the cash and ran.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,935
you guys need to

1. learn to differentitate between harrassment and justified criticism.
Do you think that criticism should be...

measured?
nuanced?
reasonable?


Or just emotionally justified?

because you think people here are conflating harassment and 'justified' criticism
when they're generally just acknowledging the relationship between harassment and 'justified' criticism that was (and is in this very thread) delivered by people who choose to express themselves like children do, thoughtlessly and in strict accordance with their last felt emotion.
 

Aters

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
7,948
The bit I don't understand is while they've admirally spent the last 2 years improving the game, where is the money coming from? What's the financial incentive?
Look around you. See how many people are talking about buying the game, about "giving them a second chance". Is that not financial incentive? The game kept selling after launch. Why do Ubisoft keep updating Rainbow Six Seige? Just for good PR?
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,135
Somewhere South
I think that, at this point, we should just stop enganging with the people with massive hate-boners. Just ignore them. If they haven't changed their minds yet, they won't. They enjoy being like that and, by interacting with them, just fuels further toxicity.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,829
I bet 99% of these 'death threats' are from 10 year olds going nuts on the internet. Just because I can't in my right mind even imagine an adult interested in a spacegame could be so angry that he threatens the developer for not putting butterflies in there.

Most of the sad fuckers doing harassment online or even being gators are adults, and not 18 years old adults..
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
Do you think that criticism should be...

measured?
nuanced?
reasonable?


Or just emotionally justified?

because you think people here are conflating harassment and 'justified' criticism
when they're generally just acknowledging the relationship between harassment and 'justified' criticism that was (and is in this very thread) delivered by people who choose to express themselves like children do, thoughtlessly and in strict accordance with their last felt emotion.
So you're the arbiter of properly expressed criticism and tone. Must be a cool job.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,157
Do you think that criticism should be...

measured?
nuanced?
reasonable?


Or just emotionally justified?

because you think people here are conflating harassment and 'justified' criticism
when they're generally just acknowledging the relationship between harassment and 'justified' criticism that was (and is in this very thread) delivered by people who express themselves like actual children do, thoughtlessly.

thats a good point. and i dont deny that Sean probably got some terrible, and terrifying harrassment during NMS launch.

just for clarification, ill quote the previous thing i said:
what sean is essentially doing in this interview is exaggerating the amount of harassment he got while downplaying the shit he pulled. Got "a little excited" huh? really?

this is mostly what my point was in my 1st post.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
a game that, when it didn't meet some players' high expectations
Obviously harrassment is gross and never the answer, but come on with this framing, Guardian.

The bit I don't understand is while they've admirally spent the last 2 years improving the game, where is the money coming from? What's the financial incentive?
The money came from the launch sales, game sold exceptionally well.

The incentive is porting it to Xbox with incentive for a wary new audience to buy in, and creating goodwill for the future projects of your studio.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,339
you summarizing everything he misled and lied about pre-launch as "butterflies and multi-player" means you're not arguing in good faith and being purposefully disingenuous. oh please, indeed

and yes, his vagueness did help rake in the money, you can read early reviews and gaming forums and see it explicitly so for fucks sake
Features being cut isn't automatically lying and not every feature that's cut needs to be communicated explicity, that's what the many trailers shortly before are for

Why is this so hard to understand
 

GameShrink

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,680
The death threats are criminal and hopefully were treated as such.

Murray's handling of the launch was disastrous. To over-promise in the leadup to a massively hyped launch is one thing, to refuse to offer clarification is another.

Even though it was obvious to many people that NMS in 2016 was an early-access title masquerading as a finished product, I find it genuinely deplorable that the studio never actually owned up to the features it had removed.

As far as I'm aware, they never confirmed:
-The lack of multiplayer.
-The drastically reduced factions and NPCs.
-The removal of unique fauna like small insects and giant sandworms.
-The seriously scaled-back AI and animations.
And dozens of other features shown before release.

Instead, they either remained silent or insisted those features were still present. Which led to people spending tons of time (and losing the option of a refund) searching for important things that had been secretly stripped out.

When you deceive your customers, you need to drop the secrecy and mysticism and just be up-front with them. I also needed to hear "We realize our marketing was deceptive, and are requesting that Valve and Sony offer a full refund to anyone that requests one, regardless of play time."

Hopefully, this serves as a warning both to deceptive studios and overzealous gamers who take their criticism too far.
 

tulpa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,878
Era is not an exception, not really. You won't find an exception that isn't an actual hivemind.
See above, but what I really meant is that it's not quite as bad. I can mostly game with people from here without having to worry about people shouting homophobic slurs at me. But you're right.
 

The Wraith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,083
They deserved the backlash. They didn't deserve death threats. It's sad people threaten the lives of others over a game...
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
Wow, that's a big get for The Guardian.

Gamers.

giphy.gif
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,339
The death threats are criminal and hopefully were treated as such.

Murray's handling of the launch was disastrous. To over-promise in the leadup to a massively hyped launch is one thing, to refuse to offer clarification is another.

Even though it was obvious to many people that NMS in 2016 was an early-access title masquerading as a finished product, I find it genuinely deplorable that the studio never actually owned up to the features it had removed.

As far as I'm aware, they never confirmed:
-The lack of multiplayer.
-The drastically reduced factions and NPCs.
-The removal of unique fauna like small insects and giant sandworms.
-The seriously scaled-back AI and animations.
And dozens of other features shown before release.

Instead, they either remained silent or insisted those features were still present. Which led to people spending tons of time (and losing the option of a refund) searching for important things that had been secretly stripped out.

When you deceive your customers, you need to drop the secrecy and mysticism and just be up-front with them. I also needed to hear "We realize our marketing was deceptive, and are requesting that Valve and Sony offer a full refund to anyone that requests one, regardless of play time."

Hopefully, this serves as a warning both to deceptive studios and overzealous gamers who take their criticism too far.
There were literally four different trailers showing what the game is before release, like a week or two

Of course that doesn't communicate stuff like multiplayer that's supposed to be rare and that needs to be communicated clearly that it didn't make it in. But many of these feature lists are just easily disprovable as not being communicated if you look at those trailers. Not all, mind you.
 

Deleted member 44129

User requested account closure
Banned
May 29, 2018
7,690
Look around you. See how many people are talking about buying the game, about "giving them a second chance". Is that not financial incentive? The game kept selling after launch. Why do Ubisoft keep updating Rainbow Six Seige? Just for good PR?

But nobody is going to be buying this NEW surely? There were so many copies sold on after days of purchase. It's on ebay for an average of £10
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,520
An apology at launch would have actually been worse than just kind of going away like he did. Very few people would have expressed any positive feelings toward it.

It would have been ammunition for the hostile gamers. "Well you shouldn't have lied", "Too late", "can't apologize for a shitty game", "We knew you were a liar", "Go away you lying sack of shit", and so on.

Apologies are very rarely ever accepted and certainly when you send them out to a huge community it's not going to work for most of them. The hostility isn't extinguished by a few words. It's too large a fire.

The people willing to forgive Murray either stuck with game and appreciates the updates or just forgot about the whole thing.
 

Ichtyander

Member
Oct 25, 2017
438
I've just read through the three new articles and interviews with Sean Murray and at this point, the way he just presents himself and Hello Games and the wording he's using, it's never going to satisfy anyone that's criticizing the game and the studio, and that's kind of a shame.

So the vibe I'm getting from these interviews is something myself and I'm sure many others have been saying is that Hello Games bit off waaay more than they could chew, and they handled their exposure in a very inexperienced and I'd say irresponsible manner, which Sean sort of now admits in hindsight, but he's still keeping this defensive stance about the state of the game (them being "naive" and him not really accepting it fully valid to call the release version "an early access" thing) which I think doesn't help anyone at this point and it doesn't help one bit in relieving some of the vitriol that's still present surrounding the game's release. I don't doubt in their inability to communicate and their naiveté, and I never thought that they were scheming to scam everyone, but even their best intentions ended up doing that anyway, to an extent.

I just mean to say that fans of the game (including myself) shouldn't expect the criticism to stop, because frankly it shouldn't, and these kinds of situations should always be discussed more openly and by people that have a lot more insight into the inner workings of the industry but are also more objective and not chained to overly defensive opinions or nonconstructive criticisms and even harmful attacks, which is hardly something that will happen on forums or social media.

In those months prior to release, Sean talked to the press and even go on a talk show like he'd talk to an acquaintance he'd just met and spoke about stuff and features the team's been working on, while it all being their only major form of communication with the world (as it is for most devs), so it was really irresponsible to present himself, the team and their game in such a nonchalant way. And I don't say this lightly, because there have been such small teams well before and after the release of No Man's Sky. Hello Games aren't the only small indie dev team (or even single authors) in the world that's developed an interesting, weird and unique game (they are though a rare example of a small dev team taking such a gargantuan and incredibly complex project head on), but they are definitely the ones that have done a terrible job at communication and marketing, as if they've lived inside a bubble outside the games industry and media, which frankly isn't the fault of the people that bought their game.

It sounds like I'm being the devil's advocate here, so after saying all that, I will add that I, like many others, followed the development of the game very closely, made efforts to figure out what the game actually was, tried to help clearing up any misconceptions with elaborate summaries (which HG eventually linked to at the time of release as one of the sources of clarification on the "what do you do" question), did a bunch of fan art and have been following playing the game with all of its updates with coming close to 200 hours of play time at this point. I think it's safe to say I'm a fan.

But as such, I think the release of NMS is a cautionary tale, completely open to constructive criticism and should not be necessarily defended by anyone, because shit like that hurts consumers as well as developers, so as we all try to get into the industry, we should be aware that it's the entire world we're throwing ourselves into.

Spitting venom and stubborn, uninformed criticism and insults at Sean and Hello Games or defending to the point of almost censorship or being blind to actual issues, both extremes are not very constructive and will not help in resolving such discussions, ever. So I'd say, instead of clinging to semantics or nitpicky details, or trying to justify certain issues, maybe we should accept that the criticisms will never stop, it's probably naive to think otherwise, and we should focus on asking for more honest communication from developers, publishers and platform holders. Also, the people bringing death threats, harassment and abuse, that is some vile, juvenile and horrific shit that's dragging everyone down for no good reason but fear and insecurity and I think it's just another broader aspect of miscommunication on many sides, which needs to change.


With all of that, No Man's Sky is a slow realization of one of the big "dream game" concepts out there, and even as a "tech demo" should be applauded because games like those help move progress forward. Even if the actual game is far from perfect, it sets a foundation for the future of the idea, the "dos and don'ts", and Hello Games are still committed to that dream of building on those foundations, which is a commendable thing in any respect. I hope they keep on working on it for as long as their hearts are into it.
 

Waveset

Member
Oct 30, 2017
826
The reaction to this game has just been embarrassing. It was great at launch and has gotten better and better.

At least everyone's learnt their lesson and will always wait for reviews, gameplay impressions before putting their money down, right?
 

c0Zm1c

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,200
For the record, that tweet was posted hours before the game launched. It was Murray's last minute attempt at putting out a fire he knew he started.
That wasn't the first time he dismissed the game as a multiplayer experience though. This is from March that year, five months before the eventual release:


He was horribly inconsistent about it through the years leading up to release. I can only assume that the reason for that was because development may have also been horribly inconsistent, that they may have been trying different things and some of it worked, some of it didn't. In one interview I recall, when asked about whether or not it was possible to land on asteroids his answer was basically that at that point in development you could, which suggested it was something they were playing around with but also indicated it might get removed before release (which it obvious did).

As he says in hindsight, he realises now why they go in on interviews with a script.
 

Markitron

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
12,510
Ireland
Besides the fact that the concept has been popularized for the wrong reasons, by the wrong people, the fact that not all gamers are like that, not even the majority of it, is true. The opposite is a blanket statement, and as such it's inherently stupid and doesn't help solving the problem because it simply creates "sides" fighting each other.

I don't send death threats, you don't, the person you quoted doesn't. So I guess that among gamers there are decent people. Saying that gamers themselves are the problem is simply an easy way to feel better by priding oneself through self-blame, but offers absolutely no solution to the actual problem. It's worthless.
I have been seeing the same thing used to mock Star Wars fans a lot around here recently and I don't know why it's suddenly ok to demean entire fan-bases over the actions of the nutjob minorities.