When someone sees something at face value and refuses to see intent, nuance, or context. That is outrage culture.
Today's culture woulld see blazing saddles as the most racist movie ever made, when its the exact opposite.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
‘Simpsons’ Creator Matt Groening Says Debate Around Apu Is ‘Tainted’
- Thread starter WrenchNinja
- Start date
Today's culture woulld see blazing saddles as the most racist movie ever made, when its the exact opposite.
this is where i'm at. Not only is he one of the most well developed side character, he's also probably one of the most wealthy and successful side characters outside of Mr Burns. His religion and vegetarianism was treated with much respect in the Paul McCartney "you dont win friends with salad" episode as well. That said I haven't watched the show in over 10 years so if somethings changed i'm not aware of that.
What anger? The documentary is people telling their thoughts on it from a "it's fuck up, but it is what it is" prospective.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with an Indian composer friend of mine, he says he loves the exposure and doesn't understand the backlash. We are both friends of Indian Americans, who in turn would voice their disapproval of the character, only for my friend to remind them that they aren't Indian, and to inform those who "are Indian from India" loved what Apu did for the representation as he saw it.
I have noticed often in these situations that outrage is driven by Indian Americans. Maybe The Simpsons needs an Indian American character to balance out the stereotype.
I have noticed often in these situations that outrage is driven by Indian Americans. Maybe The Simpsons needs an Indian American character to balance out the stereotype.
People say that, but Get Out just won an Oscar. And it is way more scathing than Blazing Saddles
I didn't cite some examples in my previous post?
Though I do agree and understand that venting in a reasoned way is what like 90% of the documentary is doing.
Last edited:
Which is a flaw of humans. Can't keep two thoughts in their heads so they want an arbitrary system to filter. Can't even hear about it without becoming upset.
The current system self selects issues that only affect a narrow group of people: heterosexual white males from the US that believe in Christianity. 'Outrage culture' is really the rest of us wanting new stories.
Representation matters and the needs of a hyper successful TV show don't outweigh it's flaws. I don't care how others view that opinion when 'outrage culture' sounds closer to 'shut up, we don't really want to have honest open discussion.'
If midgets start yelling about the dude in infinity war, I have a couple options:
- Agree
- Disagree
- Ignore because I don't care
- Stay silent and let more intelligent people speak
- Probably a few more options
All the way at the bottom, is the dumb response about outrage culture being too much. We all have a bunch of options but effectively telling people to shut up is not helpful.
On a internet board about videogames and life, of all places. How far our hobby has come because we get the chance to debate inane topics like digital game icons that are on the select screen or 30 vs 60 fps. It doesn't make logical sense.
Do we really want to be the equivalent of the guy who called us nerds in the early 90s?
That's true, I can't think right now lot of Indian representation on media, which made Apu's role stronger than it may seem at first.
It is all going to come to head soon, in the next year or next few years. More and more people are going to get more and more outraged over it happening more and more, and before you know it more people are going to just start discrediting all of it. Even when it is actually warranted.
How do you know they are deliberately forcing themselves to not see intent or nuance or context as opposed to seeing it and it not changing their opinion?
What is more likely, someone just disagreeing with you or someone eschewing all context or nuance in a deliberate attempt to make themselves angry?
Getting annoyed about outrage culture seems like a pretty effective way of identifying yourself as a straight white cis man.
So standard human history? I mean people were calling abolitionists and MLK their version of outrage culture, shit ain't new. Just that more people have a voice
Mindy khaling, Aziz ansari, kal penn (although he's moved on from acting, but he got his start by portraying an Indian steroetype), Dev Patel.
The artist can also thoughtfully consider how their own work contributes to it like Hank Azaria did. That's all the documentary was trying to accomplish.
I'd prefer if they kept the character, but just wrote him an arc that made him a little less stereotypical. I don't think writing the character out of the show needs to be the only answer, they can also do right by the limited diversity in the cast that exists.
You mean like how tons of white people think racism isn't a thing and get mad when it's pointed out?
Would you be this dismissive about the criticism of Azaria and the showrunners if this was live action and he painted himself brown?
What about Fisher Stevens in Short Circuit? How is what The Simpsons doing any different than the Amos 'n' Andy radio show?
How "cringey" is it for someone who isn't Indian to handwave the criticism Indians have for a show?
I think what is more likely, is someone sees something they quickly deem as problematic with out spending any time to determine if it was actually problematic.
People that discredit things as part of 'outrage culture' are not addressing the argument and are lazy, as I've stated repeatedly in this thread. What they do is not something any of us can control. Pushing forward this narrative that 'outrage culture' is a legitimate term that can be used in situations involving problematic representation of minorities is a real issue. When I see people on ERA, an admittedly super left leaning website, pushing this forward as well, it sorta makes me think the situation is hopeless.
I will say I urge people to stop using this term or idea to dismiss arguments and stop supporting arguments put forward by people like Groening who do.
You know what is "clunky" and "un-nuanced"? Referring to cultural discourse as "outrage culture." Hari Kondobolu certainly isn't "outraged" when discussing Apu.
OP
OP
You could also just listen and gain perspective if you aren't prepared or educated enough yet to formulate an answer.
I don't think we're talking about the same thing when it comes to outrage culture. What you're describing is people unwilling to listen to real issues due to a power dynamic already in their favor. "Racism?! Racism has been solved for decades!" says the racist man who thinks racism only becomes a thing when minorities speak up about race.
When I refer to outrage culture I'm saying that even the most inane faux-outrages like the dumbasses thinking SJWs have ruined Star Wars make a petition for Disney to start over on The Last Jedi get the same amount of attention and spotlight online as people talking about actual problems. Outrage culture is a product of humans in the 21st century and is not the same as people simply using the term to dismiss controversies they don't like to hear about.
I'm not sure what documentary your referring to. But id like to know
Alright, I'm confused. How is that different from right now? And all of history?
I find it more tiresome when people use 'outrage culture' as a handwave to not forming a decent retort.
Isn't every single character racist or a stereotype though? Simpsons makes fun of literally everybody, especially white people. But nobody is safe. It's the whole shows shtick. They want to offend everyone or at least tease them. Hank Azaria does like a dozen voices for the show including Apu. It's way cheaper to do this than to hire a different actor for each role.
You are missing my main point in my 'whataboutism'. I'm going to do it more explicit: Apu is an Indian who can be seen as a negative representation in media. But... he is a Simpsons character. 85-90% of characters are a negative stereotype in the Simpsons. Most people in the series are dumb, or lazy, or corrupt, or hypocritical, or sleazy, or they are bullies, or cowards, or just plain ridiculous. So Apu is just one more character, that isn't treated differently to the rest of the cast.
Funny thing, I work with Indians every day at work, in a big international IT company. I don't laugh at them, because I'm not an asshole and there isn't even anything to laugh at really, they have a marked (gasp) Indian accent, because they are Indians. And I have a Spanish accent in my English, as I'm Spanish (second gasp!).
So maybe the people who he had to deal with were just racist assholes, who would be racist assholes even if the series didn't exist.
The problem isn't Apu, it's the lack of Indian American cartooon characters. There's a reason why a lot of India born Indians don't mind the character; Apu IS the homeland culture. As a second generation immigrant myself, I can totally empathize with those that are sick of people trying to group you in with them and taunting you for being "different", even though you're clearly trying to integrate.
Apu is already so respectfully developed and fleshed out that it would be a waste for him written out. An obvious "solution" would be just to grab the already existing Apu's nephew (?) and just have him help out with the store.
Apu is already so respectfully developed and fleshed out that it would be a waste for him written out. An obvious "solution" would be just to grab the already existing Apu's nephew (?) and just have him help out with the store.
Last edited:
If you watch the episodes Apu is one of the best layered characters on the show. The episodes regarding his religion, veganism, love for his wife/valentines day, etc are treated with respect. He's also often shown being a better person than his male counterparts like in the Valentine's day episode.
I can see why some think Hank voicing him is a problem but I feel that that's the point of voice acting. Anyone can be the voice of anything.
I think the main problem here is that the racist part of America ignored his character and latched onto the catchphrase and subsequently used it to bully others. I'm indifferent on if they took Apu off the show but I don't think racists care if you did that or changed his voice.
For example, where I am from a lot of middle eastern folk own convenience stores and gas stations. Racists refer to them as towel heads and other awful things. They don't need an Apu to heckle you. They will incorporate whatever they think will get a dig in.
I can see why some think Hank voicing him is a problem but I feel that that's the point of voice acting. Anyone can be the voice of anything.
I think the main problem here is that the racist part of America ignored his character and latched onto the catchphrase and subsequently used it to bully others. I'm indifferent on if they took Apu off the show but I don't think racists care if you did that or changed his voice.
For example, where I am from a lot of middle eastern folk own convenience stores and gas stations. Racists refer to them as towel heads and other awful things. They don't need an Apu to heckle you. They will incorporate whatever they think will get a dig in.
Aside from the whataboutism, they could recast the entire show and it would be significantly cheaper than what they're paying the actors now. They get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars per episode.
Really? Name the explicitly racist black stereotype they have on the show? This whole "make fun of everyone, especially white people" argument, is bullshit. Do you not see the difference between a bunch of white people making fun of white people and a bunch of white people making for of Indians?
That post is what it looks like when you're talking to someone who just started paying attention to the world around them five minutes ago.
Considering they each play multiple characters, that's kind of a bargain. The leads of a show like Big bang Theory get well over a million per episode.
Not that I agree with the poster you're quoting, but what is the difference between the black characters on the simpsons and Apu? It's just the accent, right? If any of the black characters were immigrants from Africa and had African accents done by white actors it would be the same criticism? Because as it is the black characters are already voiced by white actors.
I mean, the cast is kind of 99% of why people watch the show lol. I'm not sure if you're being serious or not in your initial suggestion, but recasting the entire show would lose them their entire viewerbase. That's a terrible idea haha. It's like replacing the entire cast of Friends, but still calling it Friends.
Hell, look at the way black people are portrayed on the show. Carl is more competent and qualified than Homer, his peer. Lou is more competent and qualified than Wiggum, his boss. Hibbert is a doctor.
Probably the biggest distinction between those characters and Apu though is that none of them have silly voices, they all sound like regular ass people. I know some people will still draw this line but personally I don't find much issue with white people doing the voices of minority characters in principle, other than that Hollywood should employ more people of color anyway. But like, someone brought up Cleveland on Family Guy being played by a white man, except that's not going to occur to anyone casually watching the show because Cleveland isn't a blatant stereotype, he's just a black dude. Apu, meanwhile can't just be an Indian dude, he has to own the stereotype.
I wasn't suggesting recasting the entire show. I was explaining why you wouldn't have to literally have a different voice actor for each character.
Alright, I don't feel this conversation is going to go anywhere more productive than it has already lol
I was explaining lol why cost would not be a factor haha in recasting Apu by using an extreme example lol. I do not think they should lol recast the entire show haha.
I'm sorry lol if this is confusing you.