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Deleted member 23046

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
6,876
That's interesting because as a french speaker that's something I always find weird to read in (us-)english. Use verbally that taxonomy in french and you will be slapped or punched : male/female are biological terms and it's hugely offensive and/or vulgar to use it in the common conversion. The only acceptable way could be in an initmate sexual intercourse.
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
It's an affectionate synonym or corruption of 'girl'.


http://www.word-detective.com/2011/08/gal/

see also 'gel' (pronounced with a hard g) for the upper-class variety that unsurprisingly didn't make it over the pond :D

I think it depends on context- when used with close friends who like the youthful, almost archaic connotation of 'gal', why not. I see posters for 1940s/50s themed parties called 'guys and gals' and a female friend of mine and I have used 'alright gal' and 'alright lad' as friendly greetings for as long as I can remember. I wouldn't want to be the arbiter of what is and isn't acceptable across the board in all situations for that one. However, in a professional environment or when talking to strangers I avoid 'girls/gals' as a counterpart to 'guys' becuase of the infantilisation/junior element to it, and I can see why it drives people nuts. I avoid 'girls and boys' too as my staff/colleagues are my professional peers deserving of respect for their skills, not my students or my children.

Thanks! Ok, I can dig it. Like I said I don't use it but good to know how it comes across.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,228
Whether it is malicious, a lack of English understanding, or a lack of education ultimately doesn't matter. The correct response to this thread would then be: Huh, I was mistakingly being offensive. I didn't realize. But now I know, thank you.

As a non-native English speaker this happens sometimes. But I would rather be wrong and learn, than be wrong and mad for being told so.
That's not the correct response at all. 5 people getting offended by a word, does not mean that a word is offensive. Everyone can be offended by a word that does not mean that the word is offensive.
 

Deleted member 40797

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 8, 2018
1,008
That's not the correct response at all. 5 people getting offended by a word, does not mean that a word is offensive. Everyone can be offended by a word that does not mean that the word is offensive.

It doesn't matter whether several people found the word offensive. The problem is that using 'female' in place of 'woman' perpetuates sexism.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,188
That's not the correct response at all. 5 people getting offended by a word, does not mean that a word is offensive. Everyone can be offended by a word that does not mean that the word is offensive.
I'd suggest you read some of the responses in the thread first, I think the reasoning as to why you shouldn't be using "females" in a certain way has been pretty well explained by now.
 
Oct 28, 2017
1,228
User Banned (2 Weeks): Ignoring mod post, repeatedly dismissing the concerns of others. History of infractions.
I'd suggest you read some of the responses in the thread first, I think the reasoning as to why you shouldn't be using "females" in a certain way has been pretty well explained by now.
I read some of the responses. These are not representative of the larger society at large. A large number of women don't have with this. You can't enforce what a very small minority of women think on an issue.
 
Jan 9, 2018
4,401
Sweden
I didn't know this was a thing, but thank you for enlightening me. I think I've only really heard "female" being used in investigations and descriptions in fiction, if I think about it. If it's used in everyday conversation it might seem a bit out of place, yes, since it sounds like
your are referring to a specimen.

In my defense, I am A. Not a native English speaker and B. We have no equivalent to male/female descriptive terms in my language, but simply use "man/woman" where applicable, so I don't encounter that type of situation very often.
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
I read some of the responses. These are not representative of the larger society at large. A large number of women don't have with this. You can't enforce what a very small minority of women think on an issue.
When discussing an issue in a thread, can we stick to the opinions of the people in it rather than this imaginary majority that exists to disprove an overwhelming argument by people that actually bothered to post. See also 'you're all wrong because I asked my gf'.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
You don't speak for all women. Now you are being a sexist. Women are not a monolith that share the same opinion on different issues.

A lot of women don't like it. Someone pointing that out is not being monolithic or sexist.

Further, what's the counter-evidence that women don't care? It seems like you're seeing a small sampling of the women who don't like it and decided to assume it's not the case for most women, even without something to corroborate that.
 

Ysarus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38
I'm sure it won't make much of a difference to some people, but for what it's worth, I don't like it either. If a guy can't stop himself from saying it, I'll assume he doesn't want to see women as people.

"Hey guys", "hey ladies" and "hey girls" will annoy different groups of people depending on the situation, but you can't consider "females" a reasonable alternative... Or start saying "hey females" and watch what happens.

Edit: and to be clear, "females" is not simply "annoying". It's creepy.
 
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Jubbe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,779
People are saying, "Damn, did you see that group of females." "That female is X."

But if someone is saying "damn, look at those females" surely the point is to be objectifying, so how is that statement improved by saying girls/women/ladies?

Seems like a bad example to use.

Anyway, I've never encountered this so didn't know it was a thing that needed to be explained. The accusatory clickbait thread title annoys me though, unless this is actually a problem on Era that I haven't seen.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Only use it in a scientific situation or when talking about animals.

My bigger issue is deciding when to use girl, woman or lady. The amount of times I've been told 'I'm no lady Fume5" is up there...

Meh, age aside (which is more relevant the higher the formality of the situation) I actually think it's incredibly simple. Formal setting = "lady", regular respectful setting = "woman" or preferably the person's name where applicable, casual joking setting around people who know you very well and enjoy poking fun back and forth = "girl". It all depends on context, as with many things. Most importantly; if someone tells you something makes them uncomfortable, just listen and adapt. It's quite simple unless you're one of these posters with their head jammed so far up their ass their ears aren't capable of taking it in.

Is the OPin the military? That would add some important context to this complsint as yeah, a lot of men in the military use "Female" in a derogatory way.

That's actually, once again, a really good example to demonstrate the OP's point in the first place. The military is using that sort of language about men and women SPECIFICALLY in order to turn people into objects via dehumanization. Using the same sort of language in a civilian setting and being surprised when people feel dehumanized is uh... kinda dense.

I read some of the responses. These are not representative of the larger society at large. A large number of women don't have with this. You can't enforce what a very small minority of women think on an issue.

Maybe the hypothetical women talking to you aren't comfortable telling you how they feel because honestly, you don't exactly seem like the type of guy willing to listen to them in the first place.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
I'm not a native english speaker, but it just sounds like your describing another species. I can't help but see David Attenborough in my mind when I see someone using "female" in that way.
 

HyperFerret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,140
I read some of the responses. These are not representative of the larger society at large. A large number of women don't have with this. You can't enforce what a very small minority of women think on an issue.
Do you have proof or are you ignoring the women in this thread whom most of them have the same opinion that females is derogatory?
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,015
But if someone is saying "damn, look at those females" surely the point is to be objectifying, so how is that statement improved by saying girls/women/ladies?

Seems like a bad example to use.

Anyway, I've never encountered this so didn't know it was a thing that needed to be explained. The accusatory clickbait thread title annoys me though, unless this is actually a problem on Era that I haven't seen.
It's rather apparent that the OP wasn't referring to Era but rather in general.
 

chrisPjelly

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
10,494
I read some of the responses. These are not representative of the larger society at large. A large number of women don't have with this. You can't enforce what a very small minority of women think on an issue.

I'm not completely convinced on OP's argument, but even I find your response incredibly asinine and rude.

"No your opinion doesn't matter, because you're insignificant" is such a lazy and dismissive rebuttal

Minorities can't have a say on matters, then? Why would a majority matter if " no words are offensive?


You can explain your counterargument with a more discussive tone you know.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
4,293
No offense but you have been quite vulgar with your replies to innocent poster replies in fairness.

What's wrong with being vulgar to dense shitposts? Seems quite appropriate to me. You might think that post is "innocent" but it is actively trying to undermine the real experience of women in this thread and appealing to some magical external authority that is in no way taking part of this conversation in order to shut everyone else up and gaslight them into thinking they are a crazy minority who isn't welcome in the real world. It's actually incredibly sinister, pathetic and deserves a lot more than vulgarity IMO. This is the type of argument that literally shuts women (or other marginalized groups in other instances) out of debates and it tells me a lot more about the person stating that argument than anything else.

Fuck fairness.
 

Squiggely

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,142
User Banned (2 Weeks): Tone policing. Long history of trolling and disruptive behaviour in threads concerning women's issues + condescending behaviour.
Oct 27, 2017
3,366
If you're so insistent on using female so casually like that you might as well go all the way and say femoid instead, imo

Seriously though, I wouldn't use male or female as a noun outside of a scientific context (ie. female of a species) and even then it probably wouldn't be to refer to a human.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
Simple etiquette?

Going mental saying shit, fuck, blah, is no argument.

It's a rant.

You're right. It's not an argument. Because the thing it's in reply to was barely an argument to begin with and certainly wasn't worth a polite response. I've already explained why in my edit in case you missed it.

Case in point; the user is banned now. Mildshock.gif

I know. That's what makes it clickbait.

Does it, though? We've had so many people getting their feathers ruffled to the point of showing their asses and getting banned over it so it's clearly a problem on ERA as well. People need to stop pretending like this type of behavior is exclusive to incel morons and other boogeymen when in actuality pretty much every man does things that are based on deeply rooted systemic sexism. No one is immune and considering how most of us are raised and/or taught by media it takes a lot of genuine reflection and listening to others to even begin dismantling those structures. Or you could plug your ears and go "la la la what about my sister creature though? She has no problem with this omg you guys are such snowflakes lel" and subsequently get banned from forums like these and probably from people who are tired of taking your shit IRL.
 
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BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
As a simple experiment: for the next few days, here on ERA or in real life, take note each time you see someone use the word "female" as a noun to refer to women. Note the context and the subject the person was discussing. You may find the results enlightening.
 

Deleted member 40797

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 8, 2018
1,008
As a simple experiment: for the next few days, here on ERA or in real life, take note each time you see someone use the word "female" as a noun to refer to women. Note the context and the subject the person was discussing. You may find the results enlightening.

I actually don't know anyone who does this in real life, and consequently assume that anyone who uses 'female' to describe a woman either listens to Jordan Peterson or posts on r/Incel.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
As a simple experiment: for the next few days, here on ERA or in real life, take note each time you see someone use the word "female" as a noun to refer to women. Note the context and the subject the person was discussing. You may find the results enlightening.

Ah but what if I appeal to male authority for my argument instead of paying attention to things? It works out great since I am a personally also a man, thus making me the authority and automatically giving me the right to implore others to cede their arguments and realize that their experiences are invalid. That seems much easier and makes me the smart person around here, mwahahaha! /barf

I actually don't know anyone who does this in real life, and consequently assume that anyone who uses 'female' to describe a woman either listens to Jordan Peterson or posts on r/Incel.

You'd be surprised. There's plenty of terminology like this going unchecked from otherwise thoughtful and reasonable people. I see it all the time in the hip hop community, for example. Especially from white dudes for some reason. Like, there's a well-meaning discussion about gender issues and inevitably someone goes "Yeah we really do need to be more welcoming to females in our community". Like... huuuuuuuuuuuh??? Doing a great job there, bud. People with their heart in the right place also make mistakes and the least they can do is listen.
 

Kenzodielocke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,849
I feel like people who use that as a noun actually don't have a lot of contact with women, cause they'd know that's it's wrong if they had.

And honestly, I am even confused by stuff like "She is a 34 year old white female" Why do you put female in there?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,859
USA, Sol 3, Universe 1
I actually don't know anyone who does this, and consequently assume that anyone who uses 'female' to describe a woman either listens to Jordan Peterson or posts on r/Incel.
Well, don't just assume either, context is for kings and some people do prefer describing themselves in ways that go against perceived norms.

Personal, semi-related example.

Most of the time, I hate being "a Jewish person" or being told "they are jewish". I'm not a Jewish, I am simply a Jew. It's who I am, what I am, and I have no shame. I'm not a Jewish American for example, I am an American Jew, and I am an American and I am a Jew. At the same time, I know a lot of Jews who would prefer to identify as Jewish rather than Jew.

End of the day, stuff of this nature is all about respect. If someone is describing themselves in a way uncommon that doesn't always equate to something bad.
 

Deleted member 1589

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,576
On one hand it's pretty good if some men here haven't heard women being referred to as females. Y'all are hanging out with the right crowd.

On the other the OP would be better if it is updated with the instances where women are being referred to as such. Some people are just not familiar with its use as a derogatory term.
 

DaciaJC

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,685
Makes sense why women may not appreciate hearing the term used in general conversation, but depending on your work, you might hear "female" used quite often, and for good reason. In healthcare, from what I've experienced, progress notes or rounds will generally begin with something to the effect of "Patient is a 49 year-old Caucasian female with a chief complaint of ..."

'Course, same is done for the opposite sex.
 

AgonyRon

Member
Nov 27, 2017
687
I don't see how somebody's English is good enough to understand phrases like "keep this in mind" can't understand how a "female doctors" and "that female" are clearly different.
It's because their native language makes them. Most use a mix of English they hear on tv, read on internet and sometimes translate 1 on 1 how would say it in their language.

In the Netherlands we say: "Zij is een vrouw" (and not "Zij is vrouw". Some would translate it like "She is a woman", but a lot would say " She is a female". My wife is American and my whole family loves to talk English with her. But i noticed so many things that are translated badly.

So although some can speak English pretty good, but still think: Vrouw is female, we always use "een" ("a"), so together it's : "She is a female".

My wife can speak Dutch now, but wven though she's very good at it, sometimes the sentences are build up in an English way. Not weird, since it's not her native language .
 

AM_LIGHT

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,725
If i say men I'll say women . If i say males I'll say females but i understand why you would be mad if thet use men and females.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,105
Austria
In the Netherlands we say: "Zij is een vrouw" (and not "Zij is vrouw". Some would translate it like "She is a woman", but a lot would say " She is a female".
Do you have any sources on this? Because the (obviously related) German "Frau", as in "Sie ist eine Frau", absolutely means woman(or sometimes wife), which made me curious.
Every online dictionary I can find translates "vrouw" as "woman" first. Then usually "wife". Many don't even mention "female".
For example:
https://www.vandale.nl/gratis-woordenboek/nederlands-engels/vertaling/Vrouw#.W02j4_exXqA
 

Deleted member 40797

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 8, 2018
1,008
You'd be surprised. There's plenty of terminology like this going unchecked from otherwise thoughtful and reasonable people. I see it all the time in the hip hop community, for example. Especially from white dudes for some reason. Like, there's a well-meaning discussion about gender issues and inevitably someone goes "Yeah we really do need to be more welcoming to females in our community". Like... huuuuuuuuuuuh??? Doing a great job there, bud. People with their heart in the right place also make mistakes and the least they can do is listen.

This is interesting because one of the first times I heard the issue raised on the internet (referring to women as females) was in the context of hip-hop culture. I can probably dig up the article if anyone is interested. Your experience is that primarily white men in the hip-hop community make the mistake, which accords with my biases. It makes me wonder if there is any research on usage of 'woman' versus 'female' across demographic groups.
 
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phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Do you have any sources on this? Because the (obviously related) German "Frau", as in "Sie ist eine Frau", absolutely means woman(or sometimes wife), which made me curious.
Every online dictionary I can find translates "vrouw" as "woman" first. Then usually "wife". Many don't even mention "female".
For example:
https://www.vandale.nl/gratis-woordenboek/nederlands-engels/vertaling/Vrouw#.W02j4_exXqA

Because I can't think of an exact translation for "female". At least in pop-biology, we say "vrouwtje" and "mannetje". Which are literally "small woman" and "small man". It's just not a difference we clearly have in our language.
 

itsgreen

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
768
Do you have any sources on this? Because the (obviously related) German "Frau", as in "Sie ist eine Frau", absolutely means woman(or sometimes wife), which made me curious.
Every online dictionary I can find translates "vrouw" as "woman" first. Then usually "wife". Many don't even mention "female".
For example:
https://www.vandale.nl/gratis-woordenboek/nederlands-engels/vertaling/Vrouw#.W02j4_exXqA

Am Dutch, but what he said is true. Thought it would be better I didn't mess with this conversation since I am not a native speaker and in Dutch what you describe as Female en Woman are used pretty interchangeable.

Vrouw is often used as female (on passports and such to identify sex).

I can't really think of another synonym for female, perhaps Vrouwelijk, which could also translate to Feminine.

Quick search of "female to dutch" also says vrouw btw.

Anywho, I know too little about the exact meaning and differences to make any difference in the broader conversation, but I saw something about Dutch, so I though I'd chip in on that.
 
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