This is definitely one of my white whales of language - been trying to eliminate it from my speech but I still slip up now and then. With that in mind, how do you folks correct your language when you slip up something like this?
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Please stop referring to women as "females" (READ OP)
- Thread starter Persephone
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German generally has more words anyway. You would use "Weibchen" or "Männchen" more in a joke way or to rile someone up.
Germans probably don't really fall into this or don't notice it in English because German has female and male words for every profession. So "Mitarbeiter" and Mitarbeiterin" are clearly defined and you don't need to use an adjective to make a distinction.
I can see the point OP is making and people should be more mindful. I believe I never personally had this problem though.
Gendered nouns would probably reduce this problem a lot, outside of the cases where it is used to antagonize the other party.
Kinda off topic and sidetracking, but I hate how nouns are not capitalized in English.
I'm guilty of doing this.
Though in my defence I do actually try to use women instead and I feel I generally use it a lot more as it's more respectful.
Same way I expect to be called a "man" rather than a "male".
But Female is so commonly used, especially here, that I often don't notice I'm doing it.
Though in my defence I do actually try to use women instead and I feel I generally use it a lot more as it's more respectful.
Same way I expect to be called a "man" rather than a "male".
But Female is so commonly used, especially here, that I often don't notice I'm doing it.
The opposite's actually the one thing that drives me insane in German :P
Hell, I actually think English already goes way too far with the capitalized words - your "I"s and "American"s.
As a native English speaker, I still find it really weird. I feel like "female" started to be widely used as a noun in the last decade or two. It's a recent thing that just sounds unnatural.
Totally agree with the OP. Seeing/hearing men and females used within the same sentence/context instead of men and women makes me wonder about the intent of the writer/speaker and/or how they view women. Especially as female is used as a way to demean/belittlw women without using explicit terms such as bitch/whore/ect. among certain crowds.
Whether it is malicious, a lack of English understanding, or a lack of education ultimately doesn't matter. The correct response to this thread would then be: Huh, I was mistakingly being offensive. I didn't realize. But now I know, thank you.
As a non-native English speaker this happens sometimes. But I would rather be wrong and learn, than be wrong and mad for being told so.
Are they capitalized mid-sentence in German? (assuming that's your native language)
I dont think the separation of it being a noun vs adjective is the right way to explain the issue, based on what I've read here. A word can be more derogatory when used as a noun but it's not inherently so, which is why that answer was confusing to me.
Seems like the real distinction is recent (or possibly historic) usage of the noun specifically. You shouldnt use the term "a female" because some people use it specifically in a derogatory manner and have coded it that way. And there is no reason to aid those types of people in any way.
Seems like the real distinction is recent (or possibly historic) usage of the noun specifically. You shouldnt use the term "a female" because some people use it specifically in a derogatory manner and have coded it that way. And there is no reason to aid those types of people in any way.
Someone can step in and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if that's the main issue women have with the word female.
In the cases I've seen it used, its a guy talking to/about women and using phrases like, "females get so emotional" or "females like ______"
Like this^
That's the main problematic area I see the word female used.
But again, I'm just another dude. I might be missing a whole range of interactions.
OP it would have been appreciated had you elaborated on this a bit further. Ive had two academic advisors (one of which heads the feminists and womens studies department) use the term female and I don't understand why you consider it to be a negative connotation. Enlighten me.
Some people don't know when the use of female, male, woman, man, girl, boy should be used. That should clear it up for them.
It always sounds like Klingon speak to me when someone makes the comment "Those females". Like in Startrek when aliens can't refer to the opposite sex as "women" because they're not human.
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
I agree 100%
saying "female" is de-humanizing. It's something you say when talking about cattle or zoo animals.
The US has gotten too much into Police lingo saying "adult male" "adult female"
lets go back to saying men and women when speaking generically.
we are not cops, we are not working in a morgue.
saying "female" is de-humanizing. It's something you say when talking about cattle or zoo animals.
The US has gotten too much into Police lingo saying "adult male" "adult female"
lets go back to saying men and women when speaking generically.
we are not cops, we are not working in a morgue.
Female is used instead of "women" to deliberately dehumanize the subject and treat it as an object instead of a person. Medical reports, police suspects, prisoner counts and other types of discourse will deliberately do this for various reasons.
And that dehumanization is why it's derogatory outside of contexts- it treats a person as an object. Which becomes a big issues with things like (straight) male entitlement.
I don't think OP is saying it is a negative connotation, I think OP is pointing out how some people use the term wrongly.
But they probably use the word 'women' too in that exact same context.
As a trans woman I rather dislike male and female. I think they should be used strictly in a biological context (also not to mention intersex people exist) and not in regards to gender.
Right, that's roughly what I'm saying. But that's not specific to being a noun. I think the thread, from my perspective, was made more confusing by the early explanation that "a female" is a noun. "Women" is a noun too, but it's about growing societal context that makes "a female" wrong.
Then say "girls and women" unless you are gonna describe both sides as males and females.
I actually don't mind this as a woman.
Guy and dude are gender neutral to me but to each their own. I will adjust myself to not call a woman guy or dude if I know she dislikes it.
Self-awareness is always good to promote. The way a person communicates, the care they take with their words, how their speech characterizes others and how it is perceived are some of those things a person should consider. Being open to learning, self discipline and refinement on this subject and others is beneficial.
I've been petitioning every once in a while to stop this, as well. Maybe people lack nuance of how the word is used, and I'm glad it was explained nicely here. Too often 'female' is used as a noun, and it really does come across as if it's referring to a herd of cattle or something - "... and over there are our females, we keep them there for the breeding season".
Unless you are a taxonomist discussing your field of expertise, the use of the word that way sounds weird.
Unless you are a taxonomist discussing your field of expertise, the use of the word that way sounds weird.
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I agree. How would a person refer to a group of women of all ages? For example, I have a friend that has 2 young daughters and wife, and says 'I live at home with all females!' He isn't being derogatory.
An alternative to placing that burden on OP is to research it yourself. Assuming you read the OP, does your academic advisor use the word as a noun?
What is the equivalent of a non-formal greeting in the same social situation/intention as your example? as a non-native speaker, I always struggle to come up with a sentence that could not be interpreted as sexist or diminutive.
In a group full of woman, spoken by a woman, "hey girls" could be seen as too immature if the women were older or want to be seen as more mature.
In the amateur-novel-writing circles, "hey guys" as a greeting always gets handwaved away as non-gendered.
Exactly. Nowadays it's a pretty good give away.
The next step is the new term used by incels, aka "femoids", short for female and humanoid (which for them means "with a human form but not worthy of respect", or "women are lesser human beings" basically).
Not saying everyone who says "female" is like this but please guys, pay attention and don't speak like morons. The less you have in common with incels, the better. For you and for others.
I don't think it's growing context- the Ferengi on Star Trek are incredibly misogynistic and were using "females" to refer to women back in the '80s/'90s. That's very much a art imitates life thing.
This seems like such a no brainer to me. Try saying it out loud the next time you see a woman. "Look at that female's car." Doesn't that sound weird, feel weird? Grammatically speaking it feels off, but to me it sounds vaguely wrong beyond that. I'm aware of its sexist usage as well, but I can't imagine saying it either way.
I've had coworkers walk by saying "hi boys" and its totally wrong. We are adult men. Doesn't bother me but it is wrong technically.
You know who is a big offender of this? Other women.
I was at a music festival all weekend, in the press pit. Heard it a lot in there, from the security guards and just whilst just walking around. Sure men do it, but women do it a lot. Probably because no one see's anything offensive about It.
Going forward I will try to be more conscious, but I can't promise I'll remember. I certainly can promise no one offline will correct me either when out in public.
Also I don't feel comfortable correcting people either, people would take that as confrontational.
I was at a music festival all weekend, in the press pit. Heard it a lot in there, from the security guards and just whilst just walking around. Sure men do it, but women do it a lot. Probably because no one see's anything offensive about It.
Going forward I will try to be more conscious, but I can't promise I'll remember. I certainly can promise no one offline will correct me either when out in public.
Also I don't feel comfortable correcting people either, people would take that as confrontational.
Much easier to see what is a noun and what is not if you capitalize it. =P
The only thing people might find weird is if "Sie/Ihnen" is capitalized because of polite, formal speech.
The people who argue that places like the military use "male and female all the time" are completely missing the point that they are dehumanizing the situation. When I did an internship at a defense company, I saw a lot of things that try to make killing sound nice. Words like:
Combatants, targets, disable, neutralize, eliminate, etc.
You never see words to describe what is really going on, killing people. It's barely a step above the American DBZ dub replacing "killing" with sending people to the "next dimension". Hell, it's a company that makes military weapons for America and calls themselves a "defense company".
So yeah, it's not a good example for why calling women females is okay.
Combatants, targets, disable, neutralize, eliminate, etc.
You never see words to describe what is really going on, killing people. It's barely a step above the American DBZ dub replacing "killing" with sending people to the "next dimension". Hell, it's a company that makes military weapons for America and calls themselves a "defense company".
So yeah, it's not a good example for why calling women females is okay.
Yes, exchanging the word females for women in those cases don't make it great, but the use of "females" makes it worse.
I think women are so used to the term 'females' coming from that clinical perspective, that whenever they hear it, they realize how unnatural and distant it is. It just compounds over time, until they're super jaded by men who use the word.
It's just like any other 'microaggression'. Sure if it happens once, who cares? But if it's systemic and constant, that shit gets tiring.
What you are stating can also be considered offensive. By telling someone else that their language is "wrong" and your way of writing is the correct way is forcing hegemonic values of the English language over theirs. Ultimately, reading requires more than just the text itself. It includes the linguistic pragmatism. There isn't a negative connotation unless the word has a history of being a negative connotation or the writer is making it so. If someone is not being malicious, then their should be no offense. Otherwise, we are going to be constantly offended by everything that we write on this forum.
When I come into a thread about a topic someone else created I expect that person to be putting forth an argument instead of just "heres an opinion, now go do research on your own to see why I'm right". Thus I asked for an elaboration.
I assume one could say "hello ladies". Technically it would be correct.
I don't mind this; especially since fedora lords kinda ruined "hello ladies"
Just say I live in a household full of women. Is it that hard to consider his daughters young women?
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