Agreed. Peeps just can't enjoy games from all systems or something.
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AMD's Timothy Lottes - Native 4K at 30 fps with PS4 image quality requires 7.4 teraflops
- Thread starter VirtuaRacer
- Start date
Agreed. Peeps just can't enjoy games from all systems or something.
The game had severe performance issues at launch, though I believe it has since been fixed.
This is from my R7-1700X at 4GHz with a GTX 1070.
I had to mess around with process affinities to get it running smoother, but it still suffered from streaming issues that would cause the game to stutter at specific points on the tracks (loading from an NVMe Samsung 960 SSD).
You will get 10Tflops and you will like it.
14 is pie in the sky. 7TF costs $500 now. It will take 3 years to get to 14TF for $500, and another year to get it for $399, which is what Sony wants.
2022 PS4? I don't think so. Now substract 2TF for each year and you get 12 TF in 2021 or 10 TF in 2020.
PS5 is scheduled to release in 2020, it's 99% certain. So 10TF it is. And I might be wrong, it might only be 8-9 TF, honestly...
No, 7nm should be a bigger leap than that.
Here's a good video to watch:
You really have no idea what you are talking about .
The node shrink alone mean we will get more than 8 to 9 TF .
Also it don't matter how much GPU cost because consoles maker don't pay that price .
Can you talk about what's been the water cooler talk as to the expectation of the devs when it comes to some numbers required for delivering "next gen" upgrades?
Also, what do you think will be the key factor in distinguishing last gen from next aside from obvious improvement in IQ (this gen it was PBR)?
Honestly i'm just a humble composer/sound guy that happens to like the tech chat 8). Personally speaking the biggest increase is what the extra cpu grunt will allow given it will be quite an improvement. Do i have insider knowledge? No, fraid not.
Right, after watching the DF video, 12-13 TF is more likely. That's great news!
I'm certain the majority of the lighting is baked, a la GTSport to maintain performance?
XBX has allowed many instances of running games with 2x the pixel output over pro and it's not a 8tf gpu. TF numbers isn't the whole picture and the whole system matters. Many multiplat games that are 1080p on PS4 have run in 4k on X. Bandwidth, cache sizes, memory amount, etc all take into account. The 30,000+ game profiles MS did to find all the bottlenecks on all major game engines has shown great success in games seeing substantial improvements over other systems
Thanks! If you have time, could you talk about whether current generation poses any hardware limitation to what can be done in the department of audio design and scope or what improvements have you seen from the last gen to the current one what are you expecting from the next gen?
Everyone seems to forget about ROPs and pixels per GPU clock cycle. While raw fillrate isn't the be-all end-all that it used to be in the PS2 days, it's still important, I think.
The PS4 had 32 ROPs the original XBone had 16.
What does PS4 Pro have, 32 ROPs, or due to the "butterfly" GPU is it really 64? Xbox One X is said to be 32, but not sure.
Do you guys see a fully utilized 64 ROPs being enough for PS5 / Scarlet ?
The PS4 had 32 ROPs the original XBone had 16.
What does PS4 Pro have, 32 ROPs, or due to the "butterfly" GPU is it really 64? Xbox One X is said to be 32, but not sure.
Do you guys see a fully utilized 64 ROPs being enough for PS5 / Scarlet ?
That doesn't even make sense lol
I can't help you if you can't see all the compromises theses Pro games have compared to PC but to say I did not play these games? One of the biggest PlayStation supporters (or fanboy) in this site? It is laughable.
PC games delivery a level of IQ no console game will ever reach.
But maybe you confuse art style with graphic quality.
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Based XboxONE is 1.3 tlfops so to run xbox one games @4k with same graphics and same framerate you need 5.2 tflops, Xbox One X has 6 tflops so it can achieve that with FPs with no problem
Base PS4 1.8 tflops so to run in 4k with same graphics and same framerate will need at least 7.4 tflops and PS4 Pro has only 4.2
That`s the base math from the guy.
Base PS4 1.8 tflops so to run in 4k with same graphics and same framerate will need at least 7.4 tflops and PS4 Pro has only 4.2
That`s the base math from the guy.
So you're comparing base PS4 games to Xbox One X games now? What? If you really wanna go there, why not compare base PS4 to base Xbox One? Rewind back to the base consoles, and Xbox One was struggling to hit 1080p in multiplatform games where the PS4 would easily achieve 1080p. Both launched in November 2013. No comment on that though huh?
On PS4 Pro and Xbox One X: Xbox One X launched one full year after the PS4 Pro, so the weird people in this thread trying to compare newer consoles to older ones aren't really making much sense. PS4 Pro launched in November 2016, Xbox One X launched in November 2017, and yet at E3, Sony had exclusives that looked so much better than the competition's it had people thinking they were running on next-gen hardware. Just saying.
I think it will come down to optimization and what type of game you are making. Because Rise of the Tomb Raider runs at or better than base PS4 settings at native 4k. I think it a good base for a regular PS4 game as far as graphics go, knowing that it did release on Xbox first although. Just meaning that it's a fantastic looking game on any platform. Destiny 2, Far Cry 5, HItman, are other examples to consider if you don't agree with the former. As, I wouldn't consider Horizon, Uncharted, etc regular as they are at the top end of what is possible on any platform.
So, between 6-8 teraflops seems like the range to me, just based upon what games have released on hardware so far, combined with statements like Mark Cerny's.
So, between 6-8 teraflops seems like the range to me, just based upon what games have released on hardware so far, combined with statements like Mark Cerny's.
Looks good, problably 2nd best graphics on XboxONE after Forza Horizon 3 but not come close to Playstation top first party whole package(lighting, npc animations, facial animation, details on the environment)
Of course. It would be silly not to. I can play games at super high framerates too. They still don't look as good as many PS4 Exclusives.
I don't understand why many people persist to use the X how example when exactly proves the point of the OP. AAA most of the times choice lower res because they haven't enough grunt to offer 4k native at decent performance. It's like a bunch of exclusives lead the trend of the development. And most of the 4k games are essentially linear games.
Just imagine if ps4 was never existed and someone tries to argue the Xbone is a 1080p hardware capable because there are games at 1080p.
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Oh. Well, I'm not going to argue against that. Especially since there is more power to work with via the PS4 compared to the Xbox One base model. It would only make sense. I was just saying some games do look pretty darn good on Xbox though.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/xbox-one-x-enhanced-games-all-titles-platforms-and-details.24378/
The thread here has a pretty complete list, and there are quite a few 3rd party games at native 4K. I don't think what Xbox first party is doing should be discounted either, there are some great looking games running native 4K.
I think you missed the point of the post you were quoting, with respect to the OP. They're saying that TFs alone don't tell the story. A lot of components in the 1X come together to produce results that, at times, exceed the expected difference when compared against the Pro if your just looking at TFs only. PS4 was used as a point of comparison because of how often it does hit 1080p, and how we've seen 1080p PS4 games that are 4K on the 1X, even though the 1X is less than 4 times as powerful - which relates to the OP post saying that 4X PS4 (7.6) TF is needed.
DICE Outstanding Technical Achievement Awards winners
2017 - Horizon Zero Dawn
2016 - Uncharted 4
2015 - Witcher 3
NAVGTR Technical Awards winners
2018 - Horizon Zero Dawn
2017 - Uncharted 4
2016 - The Witcher 3
It isn't just a consensus among many gamers that these were the most technically and graphically accomplished games in the years they were released (and to a large extent still are), but by industry experts and devs too. Add to that as the years go by, the benchmark is also continually being raised.
2017 - Horizon Zero Dawn
2016 - Uncharted 4
2015 - Witcher 3
NAVGTR Technical Awards winners
2018 - Horizon Zero Dawn
2017 - Uncharted 4
2016 - The Witcher 3
It isn't just a consensus among many gamers that these were the most technically and graphically accomplished games in the years they were released (and to a large extent still are), but by industry experts and devs too. Add to that as the years go by, the benchmark is also continually being raised.
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Its more likely you just misunderstood their statement. And if one of them did state that it was probably not an actual graphics engineer. Its quite obvious that no game rendering large amts of foliage will be rendering every leaf individually anytime soon
And are any of them running in native 4k 100 percent of the time on any console?
I would like to chime in.
The Witcher 3 is native on Xbox One X. I don't know if it's dynamic or not.
Why do you ask?
Witcher 3 its not native 4K on Xbox One X. DF already analyse that. Only if you keep looking to the sky the game get a native 4K.
Nah, I know I heard Motorsport 7 had really bad CPU utilization that pegged one core really hard. And that they tried to say it was to reduce input latency. I never heard of it getting fixed, like I did with Horizon 3.
Yeah, but the games that really tax the PS4 at 1080p30 and have to run at 900p30 on the base XBOX do not run at 2160p30 on the X. And GPUs are stream processors, that scale resources with their ALU count. So, barring a bottleneck somewhere else, TFLOP per second count is a fine performance measurement. Now, yes, the X often compares very favorably to the PS4 Pro when taking into account the GPU throughput, but the Pro is an anomaly and underperforms in this respect, in some cases. (Though not when it comes to first party games) If you compare it with the base consoles, the proportion holds just fine. And yeah, there are games that are 1080p on the base PS4 and that are 4K on the X, but those are all 1080p on the base XBOX One as well. Obviously the point of reference for rendering load there is the base XBOX One.
Yeah, I just checked the DF article and they say TW3 uses dynamic resolution on the onex.
For me, I'd perfer any reconstruction technique to get it to 4K, and then use the rest of the GPU power for actual visual effects, superpowered shaders, and whatnot.
Doesn't really matter too much, because developer talent is far more important to me than specs.
Doesn't really matter too much, because developer talent is far more important to me than specs.
However, the title also uses a dynamic resolution scaler on Xbox One X to maintain the frame rate at 30 FPS in "4K Mode". The PlayStation 4 Pro version runs at checkerboarded 4K all the time.
The resolution on Microsoft's console drops down to 1800p (3200 by 1800 pixels) at times, especially in areas like Crookback Bog,
The above is from windows central. I'm sure even Far cry 5 has resolution scaling. It may hoold native 4k majority of the time but it's not always native 4k.
It's just mind boddling how people in the tread can say this AMD guy is wrong and proclaim 6tf is enough for native 4k as the X does it currently when the majority of AAA games on it has resolution scaling.
While it's definitely a good measurement to get you in the ballpark, there are other factors involved. As was mentioned earlier, when building Xbox One X, benchmarks showed that improved rasterization efficiency showed that games didnt necessarily have to process the straight 4x amount of pixels you would expect going from 1080P to 4K. One game that was cited instead had to only process 3.5x more pixels. That's a significant savings. There are plenty more optimizations built into the Xbox One X, which allow it to punch above its weight in certain engines. A lot of benchmarking was done prior to even developing hardware to identify hardware bottlenecks in modern game engines and those learnings were brought into the Xbox One X GPU architecture. Another factor is memory bandwidth, which seems to be a bottleneck on PS4 Pro. This is likely why you see many games pushing many more pixels on Xbox One X relative to PS4 Pro relative to what you would expect in pure Teraflops. There are actual quite a few games where you see over 100% more pixels on Xbox One X.
Another thing to consider. We don't actually know the peak resolution that base PS4 can push for its games. It's very possible that some could go beyond 1080P (maybe not by much)...but are limited by the output resolution of the console. Of course you could argue that in these cases they would just add extra bells and whistles to use up this headroom, but if it's a small amount of headroom maybe there's not much you can do depending on the game.
Also, random data point because I saw it mentioned earlier. Far Cry 5 is dynamic 4K on Xbox One X, but hits native 4K over 90% of the time. On base Xbox One it runs at 1440x1080 (approximately 900P in terms of pixels). The increase in pixels there is 5.3x.
Really the point is that the AMD guy isn't wrong, but there are so many nuances involved that to make a blanket claim and put a number on it, really doesn't make sense. It's really just a silly thing to be discussing the merits of. There is no right answer, it's way too complicated. After taking a step back, I regret engaging in the discussion. This is the type of thing where there will be lots of conflicting data points and valid opposing opinions, for good reason, because of it being oversimplified.
I'd argue Battlefront 2 and the upcoming Battlefield V does dook better than any of them.
Ppl still need to remember One X games are still built with a 1.31tf gpu in mind.
I have yet to see an exclusive One X game or a game that doesn't run on the OG XBO.
The base consoles. Take multi platform games, DF face offs, then think about that for the mid gen refreshes, in relation to this topic. The One X is 6tf.
Every game the One X runs just off tf alone is going to have an advantage for trying to hit native 4K, because of the base XBO console. Did ppl all of a sudden forget the specs of the base PS4, XBO consoles aren't the exact same?
Nice response (no scarcasm).
I think my point in this discussion, is that in some cases we're seeing what Tim Lottes suggests (PS4 IQ at 4K) on the 6TF One X. In the case of Xbox first party, it's clear MS has encouraged native 4K, and and those titles are achieving that res along with a host of other visual improvements.
My issue with comment like this from Tim Lottes, is that there's not a magic (TF) number for 4k. We've got 4k on the Pro on a few titles, and the IQ is on par with the base console. Whether it's 4.2, or 6 like the 1X, 7.6 as suggested here, or 8 like Cerny believes - we'll still see a distribution of resolutions depending on the skill and/or design direction of the devs, with that distribution shifting as GPU power increases till basically 4K is the norm, which I think we'll get to (or darn close) next gen.
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Except by definition there are no PS4 versions of those games to use as a baseline.
Obviously, which is why he used the standard PS4 as a baseline for this comparison. You can't argue against his statement without arguing against simple arithmetic. So unless you have a "magic" way of proving 2+2=5 you haven't actually said anything of interest.
High frame rate makes a game look better in motion.
I played it after God of War on PS4 Pro and thought it still looked great, despite coming out in 2016.
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7nm will be a bigger leap for the PC top end but for consoles you're essentially looking at 7nm making current PC top end possible. So what we have with Vega on 16/14nm right now is highly likely the basis of we'll get in next gen console GPUs. This means ~11TF base and no higher than ~14TF most likely. Should still be plenty for a next gen console GPU as this is about twice as more processing power as you'd need to render a PS4 game in native 4K - which means that we'll get about 4X processing throughput increase when using something like checkerboarding, possibly more due to architectural improvements.
Ppl here think the PS4 games are like PC Ultra settings and Xbox One games are like Xbox 360 Low settings.
"Other league" - "Doesn't come close"
Expectations:
Reality:
