Gay men, adulterers publicly flogged in Aceh, Indonesia

PhazonBlonde · Jul 15, 2018

Earthstrike said:
Well, My post definitely came across wrong.

Let me be clear:

I think the lashings are fucked up, and highly unethical. I think the basis of it is wrong. This is my position.

The reason I stated what I did, is because when I first learned about lashings/canings in the muslim world, I had an image in my head of what that would be like that infuriated me. When I sought out video of this process, I found the severity of the caning, in terms of speed, and therefore pain and injury, varies from country to country. This made me realize that an image I had of Islam in my head may not be in the proportion that I thought it was. The reason I thought this piece of information is important was due to a broader social narrative, where people attempt to attribute level of development of regions to religions, instead of to things like war and poverty. This is an important thing to be aware of as it fuels things like perpetual war in the middle east, because it enables hatred of people.

I expressed the above ideas very poorly, and I am sorry.

I gotcha. Overall, I feel like the way American Christians feel about going to war with Islamic countries that they're basically using this shit to manifest outrage when you KNOW they don't give a damn about women and gay people, and if they had their way they'd be doing the same shit in America. It's like when Trump and other GOP assholes made the Pulse night club shooting about Islamophobia. "Hey gays! Vote for us because scary Muslims want to kill you." Many LGBTQ+ people saw through this shit though, because we know damn well they'd be killing us if it was legal to do so.

Страна Мечты said:
I do not agree with the reasoning behind the punishment, i just think that in some cases, corporal punishment can conduct a penalty much quicker and with less misery than a "humane" prison sentence can.

Learn to read.

Ok, really rude but whatever. Did I say you were agreeing with the punishment? No. I said it's gross to use 'animals' when talking about corporal punishment especially in this thread. Someone else read some unpleasant connotations to this as well, so it's not my issue of reading comprehension.

Ramala · Jul 15, 2018

Hey, at least the adulterer got flogged as opposed to the woman he cheated with, who in other cultures would be stoned to death BY the adulterer.

Deleted member 4247 · Jul 15, 2018

Страна Мечты said:
I actually agree there is something efficient about it, and processing the punishment doesn't cost as much for society, while the punished can go about his live much quicker.
I believe this also feeds into the punished's animal instincts that what he did was wrong and will cause personal suffering on his own part (rather than only making someone consciously aware of his wrongdoing by giving shelter and free food), a facet of punishment that is severely lacking in modern sentencing.

That video might be a bad example, i think my father spanked me harder than the caning that fellow got.

Holy fucking shit, there are actually people who think this way. No wonder so much of the world is fucked up.

Why not just put criminals down like dogs, no unnecessary trial needed.

Buzzman · Jul 15, 2018

RoadHazard said:
Holy fucking shit, there are actually people who think this way. No wonder so much of the world is fucked up.

To be fair, he's clearly been been taught this as a kid himself and had to endure similar abuse.
When you're in such a culture, of course it's all the more difficult to break away from it.

Earthstrike · Jul 15, 2018

RoadHazard said:
People doing or supporting this deserve to be hated. Uncivilized animals.

This is not at odds with hating the process that creates these people. You can hate fundamentalism, and the sociological processes that increase its presence, simultaneously.

Quixzlizx · Jul 15, 2018

Earthstrike said:
Well, My post definitely came across wrong.

Let me be clear:

I think the lashings are fucked up, and highly unethical. I think the basis of it is wrong. This is my position.

The reason I stated what I did, is because when I first learned about lashings/canings in the muslim world, I had an image in my head of what that would be like that infuriated me. When I sought out video of this process, I found the severity of the caning, in terms of speed, and therefore pain and injury, varies from country to country. This made me realize that an image I had of Islam in my head may not be in the proportion that I thought it was. The reason I thought this piece of information is important was due to a broader social narrative, where people attempt to attribute level of development of regions to religions, instead of to things like war and poverty. This is an important thing to be aware of as it fuels things like perpetual war in the middle east, because it enables hatred of people.

I expressed the above ideas very poorly, and I am sorry.

I understand what you're trying to say, but even if I give you the most generous interpretation of this punishment and agree that the physical injury aspect is merely symbolic, so is putting an adulterer in a stockade and having kids from the audience throw rotten tomatoes at them (an example of a Western form of shame/humiliation-based punishment from centuries ago). But we wouldn't call that civilized, either.

Страна Мечты · Jul 15, 2018

RoadHazard said:
Why not just put criminals down like dogs, no unnecessary trial needed.

I understand the accelerationist jibe you're making, but corporal punishment is not the same as summary punishment.
When you have imprisoned the mastermind, and perpetrator of a massacre, like Anders Breivik you're stuck with someone who said he would do it again, that he's not sorry... in short a menace to society. One that gets released in 15 years according to the Norwegian limitations on imprisonment.
Does society deserve to be exposed to that threat?
Does society deserve to pay taxes to house, feed, entertain and clothe him indefinitely?

I personally don't think so.

LightEntite · Jul 15, 2018

Birdseye said:
Oppression of minorities is not a joke

nonsense, it's hilarious under the right circumstances. Have you never seen a comedy show?

RoadHazard said:
People doing or supporting this deserve to be hated. Uncivilized animals.

i'm sure you wholeheartedly believe that nonsense.

in which case the only real difference between you and the ones you think "deserve to be hated" is your initial stance -- if you truly believe this, then your sense of ethnics and moral justice just comes from a place of misleading self-righteousness, similar to the kind that would lead someone to believe it's okay to flog homosexuals and adulterers.

your mode of thinking is fundamentally no different than these "uncivilized animals" you want to hate so much

Deleted member 4247 · Jul 15, 2018

Страна Мечты said:
I understand the accelerationist jibe you're making, but corporal punishment is not the same as summary punishment.
When you have imprisoned the mastermind, and perpetrator of a massacre, like Anders Breivik you're stuck with someone who said he would do it again, that he's not sorry... in short a menace to society. One that gets released in 15 years according to the Norwegian limitations on imprisonment.
Does society deserve to be exposed to that threat?
Does society deserve to pay taxes to house, feed, entertain and clothe him indefinitely?

I personally don't think so.

He's not getting out in 15 years. His sentence can be extended indefinitely if he's still deemed a threat to society, which he will be.

But yeah, here in the Nordic countries we generally believe in rehabilitation over punishment. Just punishing someone teaches them nothing.

Westbahnhof · Jul 15, 2018

LightEntite said:
if you truly believe this, then your sense of ethnics and moral justice just comes from a place of misleading self-righteousness, similar to the kind that would lead someone to believe it's okay to flog homosexuals and adulterers.

First of all: "sense of ethnics"?
Secondly, come oooooon. You're so damn close to the "Tolerate the intolerance" argument. You might actually be using it? I'm not quite sure.
Do you really feel that the stance "people who think this punishment for being gay deserve hatred" is the same as "gay people deserve punishment"?
You make it sound like "being gay" and "hating gay people" are both inherent qualities people can't help.

sph3re · Jul 15, 2018

The punishment is carried out by a masked person.

Oh well of course, don't want to out them to the public or anything

Deleted member 4247 · Jul 15, 2018

sph3re said:
Oh well of course, don't want to out them to the public or anything

Look at that shit. Totally medieval.

Ratrat · Jul 15, 2018

I saw the video. It's so bizarre seeing people including children smiling and laughing as they snap photos with their smartphones.
But people will say it's not that bad because there isn't actual blood flying and people screaming in agony.

Deleted member 5127 · Jul 15, 2018

Ratrat said:
I saw the video. It's so bizarre seeing people including children smiling and laughing as they snap photos with their smartphones.
But people will say it's not that bad because there isn't actual blood flying and people screaming in agony.

The children have no comprehension of what the hell is going on because of religion being shoved down their throats. At some point it's gonna be too late and they are going to continue the hatred in the next generations.

SapientWolf · Jul 15, 2018

Earthstrike said:
When I first read about lashings in the Muslim world, I thought it was fucked up, but wondered what they were actually like. In my mind it was some starship troopers, bleeding coming out of wounds level stuff. When I actually look up these lashings (Videos on youtube) you don't see that. Here is a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYS_nduLkdU

While it's obviously still wrong, both punishing homosexuality, and attaching some corporal punishment to it, the nature of it doesn't strike me as something particularly worse than say, prison labour. The only reason I say this, is there a lot of simple narratives put out there about the muslim world, (e.g. Hijabs in Iran.) that upon further investigation, don't bear the nature of the argument being made about the region.

You're cherry picking.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ged-80-times-for-drinking-alcohol-as-a-child/

They gave that guy the business.

99nikniht · Jul 15, 2018

thetrin said:
Damn, caning for being drunk, gay or an adulterer? What the fuck am I supposed to do with my free time, Indonesia?!

Is fun also illegal?

This is a specific region in the Island of Sumatra that abides by Sharia Law, probably the only city that does so in Indonesia. This is an outlier of a place, that being said, outside of major cities, the rest of the country's Islands, with the exception of Bali,is pretty damn conservative.

dyst · Jul 15, 2018

When these people get flogged, is it like Passion of the Christ type of flogging or relatively light and doesn't leave extremely permanent marks?

Edit: seems like it varies

Gay men, adulterers publicly flogged in Aceh, Indonesia

PhazonBlonde

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Ramala

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Earthstrike

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Westbahnhof

sph3re

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Ratrat

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