-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Is it possible to consider yourself progressive and still support the AAA game industry?
- Thread starter choodi
- Start date
How do you guys live being so afraid to....well, live.
I feel like this quaking fear of stepping on someone's toes is just the result of a blissful (?) state of ignorance
eventually you'll learn that the world just isn't a fair place and to look for the silver linings.
I dont work for an AAA games company, but knowing what I know about planet Earth, i'd still count my fuckin blessings because I know how much worse it could be
and i'd never have the audacity to say that sitting down in front of a computer trying to meet unfair deadlines is the most exploitative job in the world, HOOOOOOOOOLYYYY shit how does OP even have the nerve.
I feel like this quaking fear of stepping on someone's toes is just the result of a blissful (?) state of ignorance
eventually you'll learn that the world just isn't a fair place and to look for the silver linings.
I dont work for an AAA games company, but knowing what I know about planet Earth, i'd still count my fuckin blessings because I know how much worse it could be
and i'd never have the audacity to say that sitting down in front of a computer trying to meet unfair deadlines is the most exploitative job in the world, HOOOOOOOOOLYYYY shit how does OP even have the nerve.
This cartoon is right but it doesn't fit this thread. This thread is specifically asking how people can claim to be progressive whilst supporting AAA devs. It's not asking how we can improve the situation, it's labelling people who do support AAA as non progressive. Pointing out hypocrisy in that situation is totally apt.
Fatality.
Regarding your question, I find it interesting to say the least. I wonder what Hideo Kojima thinks of this.
Sure. I consider myself progressive. Lots of progressive people also exploit others and benefit from capitalism and even support it as an economic structure. Progressive doesn't mean moral and good. It just means you are open to listening and changing things if you feel you can help. It doesn't mean you are open to changing everything, and listening doesn't mean agreeing. I can be interested in championing certain rights for some groups and not others, I can consider how to change my behavior to help the environment and also not worry too much about poverty in third world countries.
So, yes, I can consume AAA games because I want to, and not think too much about the exploitation there, just like I can buy from Amazon because the convenience outweighs the guilt for me. And yet I can be progressive about other things and if anyone wants to compare how progressive we are like it's a contest I will politely tell that person to go fuck off.
That's how I live my life.
So, yes, I can consume AAA games because I want to, and not think too much about the exploitation there, just like I can buy from Amazon because the convenience outweighs the guilt for me. And yet I can be progressive about other things and if anyone wants to compare how progressive we are like it's a contest I will politely tell that person to go fuck off.
That's how I live my life.
You lost me there.
Have you heard of blood diamond mines in Africa? Sweatshops employing child labor in Asia? Businesses exploiting annexed land in the West Bank?
Gaming is hardly "the most exploitative" industry in the world. Doesn't mean we shouldn't push for better business practices, but let's get some perspective here.
Unless you live in the woods and steal everything, somewhere along the line your money will end up in the pocket of someone with loathsome ideals or practices. Wether it's videogames, paying your rent, buying food, paying taxes. We're all supporting scum bags and horrible business practices daily.
Stop supporting exploitative companies if you want their conditions to improve. There are plenty of AAA-developers with good working conditions and ethics from which to choose your games.
There's much space between hysteria and defeatism.
There's much space between hysteria and defeatism.
I do support some developers and publishers, and some I don't. It can't be THAT bad in every game related company, Maybe I'm naive, or even not progressive in someone's opinion – I'm okay with that – but a lot of people chose to work in that environment, and some of them create the best games I've ever played, so they contribute to my enjoyment in exchange for money. It's a deal both sides take willingly. I don't believe that there are only scum bag employers out there and that there is no where to go for you as developer, but if I'm wrong, there are always alternatives, even if it means to quit your job or even the entire industry. I did the same years ago, been still alive since then and even more happier than before.
Boycotting AAA games to protest isolated facets of the industry has zero impact unless you have a means to publicize your actions and pull people on board en masse.
Besides, how would developers know the difference between someone not having enough money to buy a game, someone choosing not to buy a game because they don't like it, or someone boycotting a game because they're unhappy about industry biases and practices?
Life's short and I'm a pragmatist. Denying myself pleasure for the trivial satisfaction of taking a personal stand is just not worth it.
Plus, skilled developers who happen to work for bad companies still deserve to be paid.
Besides, how would developers know the difference between someone not having enough money to buy a game, someone choosing not to buy a game because they don't like it, or someone boycotting a game because they're unhappy about industry biases and practices?
Life's short and I'm a pragmatist. Denying myself pleasure for the trivial satisfaction of taking a personal stand is just not worth it.
Plus, skilled developers who happen to work for bad companies still deserve to be paid.
Woooooah deep brah damn
The point is to support what you feel is right and those doing the things you think matter, because either way you're buying a yacht for a pos somewhere at some point. You can't narrow it down to games or movies or clothing retailers or etc etc, because it's all fucked.
If you honestly believe this you need to get out in the world a little bit more. This sentence makes the rest of your argument look dumb and I can't take you seriously.
You're suggesting one should try less based on the difficulty of the task. Just because you can't avoid supporting bad stuff in one place doesn't mean you should stop trying or accept less bad stuff in other places. The pursuit of betterness is always good.
I give about $500 a year to Amnesty International and almost $1000 a year to Oxfam. I feel zero guilt about buying the occasional AAA game I want where they might exploit some workers who are mostly skilled white males. I'm not trying to pull the argument into whataboutism, but I feel like I've done enough to fight the good fight elsewhere. Somebody else can take this one.
You can buy a AAA game and be progressive, you can be pro-choice but will be conservative. It isn't some kind of dichotomy where you have to be purely one or the other. Most people live in that delightfully grey, ambiguous space. Life isn't binary.
You can buy a AAA game and be progressive, you can be pro-choice but will be conservative. It isn't some kind of dichotomy where you have to be purely one or the other. Most people live in that delightfully grey, ambiguous space. Life isn't binary.
The games industry does exploit its workers, but in recent years there has been a push against this (see the recent Waypoint interviews about crunch). I'd like to speak to your other point:
Like I said, there's still loads of work to do...but I do think people are trying, because their consumers are (mostly) nudging them in the right direction.
What will undo all I just said is the post-ArenaNet wave of mob harrassment and firings continues. Hopefully that dies down soon.
I actually think the AAA devs are really trying here. It's not perfect, yet---I think there was still a dearth in protagonists of color represented at E3 yet---but we're seeing a lot more female protagonists, and one of the biggest games of the show featured a kiss between two women (that was a technical moment!) Shit, just look at how the gamergaters reacted.
Like I said, there's still loads of work to do...but I do think people are trying, because their consumers are (mostly) nudging them in the right direction.
What will undo all I just said is the post-ArenaNet wave of mob harrassment and firings continues. Hopefully that dies down soon.
There are undoubtedly problems but saying " the AAA game development industry is one of the most exploitative of workers in the world" is unbelievably ignorant when there is so much exploitation of children in unsafe and unethical environments around the world.
A CEO can buy a yacht leading a profitable company that treats its employees well. And unless you oppose capitalism and entrepeneurism then there's nothing wrong about that yacht.
"Is it possible to consider yourself progressive and still support the AAA game industry?"
Not if you paint everything in black and white. Not a single person on this planet is perfect or does everything as they should be, what matters is you trying at all.
Not if you paint everything in black and white. Not a single person on this planet is perfect or does everything as they should be, what matters is you trying at all.
Ego and ignorance of some people.... You really see AAA gaming industry as the most evil morally deranged thing on planet? If you want to be progressive, maybe pack your shit and go help somewhere, to build schools, wells, etc. You know actually help people instead of writing this shit from device which was created by people with very low income, poor working condition, just so you can post this shit on internet how good of a person you are. And I am sure you are wearing clothes which was probably done in even worse condition. But sure AAA gaming industry.
I would post Luis CK "Of course but maybe", which would fit right in, but I would be probably labeled as some rapist apologist or something of that "progressive moral high ground", which we filthy immoral peasants cannot grasp. And no, he is shitty person, but at least he has the balls to admit that, even in his shows, before his scandal blew up.
I would post Luis CK "Of course but maybe", which would fit right in, but I would be probably labeled as some rapist apologist or something of that "progressive moral high ground", which we filthy immoral peasants cannot grasp. And no, he is shitty person, but at least he has the balls to admit that, even in his shows, before his scandal blew up.
Thera are industries who deserve a boycott much more (fast food, meat production, cars) than the AAA gaming industry.
Still the working conditions in the gaming industry should improve. This will also benefit the AAA gaming industry if then highly talanted people don't leave the gaming industry anymore.
Still the working conditions in the gaming industry should improve. This will also benefit the AAA gaming industry if then highly talanted people don't leave the gaming industry anymore.
I think crunch and other ways devs are exploited is something that's important to look into, but our ability to have a meaningful impact to change that seems slim. As others have said, a bit bluntly, capitalism is capitalism. It will keep churning, for better or for worse. Luckily, you do have the option on where your dollar is spent, but the real impact will come from the devs themselves.
We need more investigative journalism into the issue that shines a light on the practice. The industry can definitely do better in some aspects, but that won't happen until they are called out on it.
We need more investigative journalism into the issue that shines a light on the practice. The industry can definitely do better in some aspects, but that won't happen until they are called out on it.
Everyone ITT and on this forum is posting from a computer or smart phone, that are more or less products of slave labor. Ya'll wear Nikes or Adidas? Where do you think all the food in your fridge and pantry came from?
At the end of the day, I gotta eat, sleep, work, piss, shit and yeah, have a bit of fun too. I can't worry about ALL of the world's problems. I'd go insane. I just stay in my lane, don't cause trouble and try to be a good person to those in my immediate surroundings. I can't change what's going on half way around the world.
At the end of the day, I gotta eat, sleep, work, piss, shit and yeah, have a bit of fun too. I can't worry about ALL of the world's problems. I'd go insane. I just stay in my lane, don't cause trouble and try to be a good person to those in my immediate surroundings. I can't change what's going on half way around the world.
Yes. I consider myself to be an ally to developers.
Oh yes it is and EA is the literal devil. Atleast the kids assembling phones can't buy unfair advantages over their peers.
Yeah I know that isn't really topic of this thread, but just reminded me how gamers are so fucking out of touch with the world that they repeteadly vote EA to be the worst company in the US. I do buy and play AAA games too, but more AA and Indies I think. I wouldn't mind if it took longer to games come out if it lowered the crunch time devs go through, I'd have absolutely no problems with that. But games being more expensive is bit trickier, as I have difficulties supporting the industry even with the current prices. Somebody tell me how to help and I'll try to do it.
Agree with what you say, but, lol. Giving dude shit for wearing a gaming hat is pretty childish in itself.
Unless you want to live off the grid, you're going to be supporting some companies you dislike everytime you pay utility bills, by food and clothing and enjoy anything related to your hobby.
The most I'm willing to do is avoid the ones I'm aware of doing things I'm especially bothered by, have owners with terrible views that donate to the GOP etc. And even then I know that's useless as there are even more and worse people/companies out there I support who simply have the business sense to keep quiet about such things.
Game development is also far from the most exploitative industry when you factor in the child labor and near slave labor like conditions in the factories making most of our gadgets and what not. A lot of the problems in game production are self inflected to some sense as so many employees are hardcore gamers who go to their "dream job" and are willing to work crazy hours. When/if they tire of that there are plenty of other gamers with relevenat skill banging at the door for that "dream" job. So that leads to the "crunch" mess and it we'll take change in labor laws to fix, which isn't happening in the US anytime soon—if ever.
The most I'm willing to do is avoid the ones I'm aware of doing things I'm especially bothered by, have owners with terrible views that donate to the GOP etc. And even then I know that's useless as there are even more and worse people/companies out there I support who simply have the business sense to keep quiet about such things.
Game development is also far from the most exploitative industry when you factor in the child labor and near slave labor like conditions in the factories making most of our gadgets and what not. A lot of the problems in game production are self inflected to some sense as so many employees are hardcore gamers who go to their "dream job" and are willing to work crazy hours. When/if they tire of that there are plenty of other gamers with relevenat skill banging at the door for that "dream" job. So that leads to the "crunch" mess and it we'll take change in labor laws to fix, which isn't happening in the US anytime soon—if ever.
As much shit as people (rightly) give to big companies like EA for shitty "micro"transaction practices and crunch, as far as I've understood, they do pretty good with their support of transgender people, sexual minorities and such, so it's not like they are pure evil incarnate. I feel it's important to enact change through the big players as well. Support the good that they do, criticize and don't support the crap they do.
Jesus at the answers in this thread... The question raised by the OP is legit and there have been multiple proofs that devs are passionated people who are treated like horse shit by their company while been underpaid.
This topic really prove that gamers are a despicable crowd unwilling to face that reality just to protect their toys
This topic really prove that gamers are a despicable crowd unwilling to face that reality just to protect their toys
It is not possible for any person to be a 100% ethical consumer in a capitalist system (insert "ethical consumption under capitalism" meme here) so you are ultimately forced to pick and choose your battles. Which battles you choose to fight are up to you. As long as you support fulling moving away from this system when possible, you're good, in my opinion.
And reposting the definitive treatise on this subject:
Thank you for this.
What are your answers to all of the above? Are you any better than the OP, or is this all whataboutism and signaling awareness, without doing anything about it?
And I'm tired of the lazy and cynical whataboutism that you represent.
Why bother bandaging a wound when you have ten wounds? Better bleed out to death indeed.
So what are you doing about it? Besides trying very hard to wish it into existence and presumably voting for the least offensively right-wing party in your country every four years.
As opposed to making yourself feel better by letting others know any of their efforts are in vain and the only logical position is to do nothing at all? Yeah, I'll take it.
Yes. I mean do you even think about the conditions for people who make the clothes you wear? O what about electronics like your phone? There are places like Foxconn that have suicide nets around their buildings.
I would imagined that a boycott X game because they dont know how to handle Y franchise could have gone in a completely opposite direction of this thread... But when we talk labour suddenly dont buy X game as a sign of protest is not a desirable practice?
C'mon
C'mon
I buy games I enjoy regardless of AAA, indie etc. Can call me whatever you want lol. Not really worried about labels I guess
You thought it would make an interesting discussion but instead of replying your'e just saying this ^^^^^ to a snarky post lmao
Not a big fan of this sort of attitude. It's the one commonly used by those who don't go out and vote. "I'm just a drop in a bucket so what's the point?" I think people would be surprised by how many others share the same interests and feelings, and they're doing themselves a disservice by not committing to action regardless of the perceived futility of it. Hence the expression, vote with your wallet.
No, I'm not. At least, I'm not trying too. I'm saying support what matters and don't sweat the shit you can't avoid, because it's truly unavoidable. You shouldn't say "AAA games are out for me" because 3/4 of the industry is shit, but instead "I'll support the AAA games I believe do things right," and be aware that even in that case, someone shitty is probably getting paid.
Who's talking about the act of buying a yacht being bad? I'm talking about paying your taxes and buying a gutter trash politician a yacht. Notice I used the term pos in there?
Not in this case.
If you want the developers to have a better life then it is better not to risk them losing their jobs due to low sales.
In this case you raise concerns to help raise awareness of the issue so that developers could be helped without a risk of them being jobbless.
Part of being a good ceo is making sure the system is tilted. In the US at least, you will find politicians (including democrats), businesses, regulators, media, and the military work together and are anti-democratic. The system itself is corrupt, so yeah, lump ceos in with politicians.
As to the OP, AAA games are a product of a society, not a cause of it. So supporting them or not isnt going to change things. However, if you want to raise an aware child, you need to be careful in what you expose them to. Most parents dont have the time or energy for that, so whatever.
If your ultimate goal is to label yourself as "progressive" instead of actually trying to work towards real change then you're woefully misguided.
Anyone who actually stands up and tries to champion real change knows that sometimes, in this ugly and unjust world, you have to compromise on your ideals for the greater good.
Presuming otherwise is just naivety.
Anyone who actually stands up and tries to champion real change knows that sometimes, in this ugly and unjust world, you have to compromise on your ideals for the greater good.
Presuming otherwise is just naivety.
There have been several people who have patiently tried to explain to the OP that his logic is flawed, nobody is saying that Devs shouldn't get better working hours or get a % of a games profit, but there's not a correlation between our purchases and what the OP is talking about, they're irrelevant. You aren't a bad person for buying a video game that your'e interested in.
If devs want better hours and pay, they have to fight for it, but they don't. There's very little consumers can do about it.
