The way Deroir's feedback was phrased wouldn't have mattered. Price was angered by having received it from him at all. She makes that clear in her response.
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The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
- Thread starter hydrophilic attack
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It's a question that asks for a response, rather than a comment that explains something that she already knows. I know you will probably say "But, but your first sentance, etc" That's explaining the context of the question for people who may not be aware. I ask for her opinion, I don't say "Other mmos use branching dialog. You should use them." It's asking for her opinion about something, not telling her what to do. I understand you're trying to make a point, but you're wrong. The way I did it is perfectly acceptable.
I am looking at it more "black and white" than you because the justifications for her behavior are extraordinarily weak, in my opinion. I also think she is very hypocritical in how she thinks she should be treated v how she treats others. (Ie hate mobs, toxicity) - how can you pretend to take the moral high ground- as she does - and treat others in the exact same manner you allegedly fight against? She should know better than to partake in that garbage as she lives it.
And she'd have chewed him out for saying that too, and then you'd have to come up with another excuse
Oh, well, if you can read her mind, and know what she'd do in every possible situation, then why are you even here? You already know what would happen. I'm sorry. I thought your post was an invitation to start a conversation...
Thanks for this. I tried to post something similar earlier in the thread but this is far more succinct and thorough.
I'm really frustrated seeing people in this thread act like dialogue options are some kind of idiotic suggestion that only a clueless amateur would suggest. That completely ignores that they represent the solution to PC characterization problems chosen my many other devs of RPGs and other genres.
Yes, they may be more costly as you need to allow for a bit of variety before the final outcome that needs to be the same for everyone, but they absolutely can be effective at allowing players to define the personality of the character they created. Certainly more so than the Arena Net solution of making them hollow shells and expecting the player to fill in the rest purely with their imagination.
It seems like she has the propensity to get snippy with people on her twitter feed. I think the way she reacted towards the first poster in her Infinity War thread was a bit mean and flippant.
I also don't think it was necessary to react the way she did to the fan that gave her feedback. He was pretty polite and has a right to express his views. I don't think he came off as trying to tell her how to do her job.
I also don't think it was necessary to react the way she did to the fan that gave her feedback. He was pretty polite and has a right to express his views. I don't think he came off as trying to tell her how to do her job.
She absolutely did not mention branching paths or ever having considered them in her write up. Why do people keep claiming this?
Not that she needed to mention everything they considered and discarded at Arena Net, but don't act like Deroir just ignored what she wrote.
You have done the exact thing you just accused me of. You reworded the streamers comments in a way you think wouldn't have caused her to act like an asshole, when you have no idea if that would have made any difference, unless of course you're a mind reader
I also disagree with the firing, but I'm not going to reach for a reason to absolve her of being an asshole
If she was offered the chance to apologise she should have been allowed to keep her job with her employers backing
I think it undermines the women who work in gaming who are being harassed and targetred if we have to reach to absolve them of any wrong doing when there is clearly wrong doing present.
The GG losers already think women get undue attention and have undue influence over "their games" and by spinning events so as they don't mesh with reality (the streamer was an asshole, she did nothing wrong by attacking a customer) it just makes us look hypocritical and biased and therefore easy to ignore
Her employers deserve criticism for firing her without at least giving her the option to make amends, but the main takeaway seems to be "they fired her for no reason because she was the victim of a hate mob" and that is simply not what happened
You do realize that you're saying anyone can say anything as long as they personally don't mean to be offensive, right? Regardless of context, this is never the way to go about things.
People that talk shit get banned here, so this is a really bad analogy.
How else can you possibly conduct yourself in life? Intent is everything, and if the guy didn't intend to cause offense then I don't think he can be blamed for that.
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Who cares if it was not framed as a question, you make note and let your expertise dictate if its valuable information or not then respond in kind (usually in a respectful manner).
+1
Also a discussion can start if someone disagrees and it doesn't matter if its phrased as a question or not or if they are a professional on not you try to engage until a narrative conclusion is reached.
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Just trying to clarify here, honest inquiry.
Are you implying that if he had only given a critique, and not any supplemental advice on said critique, she would have accepted it in a different, civil and professional manner?
You can't see the difference between a question, and a declarative statement? Okay.
I got the only point that mattered to the conversation we were having.
I know the difference, but you don't know she'd have reacted any differently, so your point doesn't matter
You can argue the difference all you like, she went overboard on a polite comment, the wording being changed slightly doesn't mean we can say she wouldn't have gone off on one
Trying to shift the blame onto the streamer is absurd
I was answering a question that was asked in this thread. You're axiomatically stating that nothing would've helped, but at the very least, if he had asked a question, she'd look worse, and there wouldn't be any question who was wrong. I wouldn't've support her if she had responded as she did to the statement I made up. That you don't understand why his comment was condescending, doesn't mean it wasn't.
That you think it was condescending doesn't mean it was
There are verified users on Era who post pretty often, and 90% of them would be exploding with rage at every single person who quotes and replies to them if that is the bar for condescension
User Banned (1 Week): Ignoring mod post, linking to content that violates rule #2. Account still in junior phase.
Posting this here, it's not surprising Collin doesn't want Jessica Price to be fired as the same thing happened to him, but he is well reasoned here.
Mod Edit: Link removed.
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One solid place, as others have mentioned, imo to listen to if you want to understand what the issues are (not that you have to agree but to at least understand the issues) is the waypoint podcast they had done a few days ago.
Fuck YongYea for his disingenuous and misleading videos on this issue, and for making multiple of such videos to get as many clicks as possible.
It is. Don't even bother to seek them out. He does not deserve the clicks.
I only knew about it because he is recommended with basically every fucking Jim Sterling video I watch. I told YT I don't want to see his shit; hopefully the algorithm listens.
As a note since I'm sliding in here myself, if you have read RPS's story about this and still think the two victims should have been fired, well... there is no hope for you and I hope you expose your misogyny enough to get banned for it.
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You mean the same site that compared Monster Hunter World to Trump's children hunting in Africa? Then made political commentary about that in the middle of the review? Ugh.
I guess? I am not an encyclopedia of knowledge. But what I am saying is that their podcast covered the situation fairly well, at the very least it touches on the actual issues.
My comment was unfair. I shouldn't have mentioned it in this context. Carry on.
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yeah it was very good, as to be expected i guess. they're almost always on point
link: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/pawy3y/arenanet-fired-developers-twitter
If you are not a GW2 player and want some insight on what the GW2 community thinks, WoodenPotatoes video is probably the best way to go. Pretty level-headed and comes from a place in the middle of the whole actual GW2 thing. Lots of level-headed discussions in the comments too, which might surprise you ;)
...yes it is an hour long. It's a thing. ;D
...yes it is an hour long. It's a thing. ;D
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reviews through a cultural lense are not for everyone, but for those of us who are into that, waypoint is among the best
(also, the trump comment in that review was just a small aside, hardly the point at all. it was used to launch into a discussion about how the game's story and world evokes and glorifies colonization in the real world)
A forum is generally seen as a place for discussion. A twitter account doesn't have to be. I thought you'd know that. I didn't realize you didn't.
I know you want that to be true, and I know I won't change your mind, so I'm not even going to bother.
Were Deroir's comments condescending or rude? Was it wrong for Deroir to comment on Price's feed?
No, they weren't and no it wasn't. Don't make your feed public if you don't want people commenting on it.
Were Deroir's comments sexist or mansplaining?
Not at all.
Did Price deserve to be fired for her comments?
Being publicly rude to a partner of your company and twisting it into a "female game dev" thing is pretty shitty. Firing her seems a little overkill but there was probably more to it than we know.
Should companies be allowed to fire employees based on how they act to customers on social media, off the clock?
How is this even a question? Of course. It reflects poorly on your company if you work with people who make a scene on social media.
People are never going to stop giving unsolicited advice on how others should do their jobs. It's like a fat guy watching a football game and shouting "How did you not catch that?" or "Why didn't you do [x] play?" when he doesn't know shit about professional football.
No, they weren't and no it wasn't. Don't make your feed public if you don't want people commenting on it.
Were Deroir's comments sexist or mansplaining?
Not at all.
Did Price deserve to be fired for her comments?
Being publicly rude to a partner of your company and twisting it into a "female game dev" thing is pretty shitty. Firing her seems a little overkill but there was probably more to it than we know.
Should companies be allowed to fire employees based on how they act to customers on social media, off the clock?
How is this even a question? Of course. It reflects poorly on your company if you work with people who make a scene on social media.
People are never going to stop giving unsolicited advice on how others should do their jobs. It's like a fat guy watching a football game and shouting "How did you not catch that?" or "Why didn't you do [x] play?" when he doesn't know shit about professional football.
Join the conversation.
Are you implying that you need to be an MMORPG writer to be able to weigh in on how you can allow for player-made characters to be more compelling via dialogue options in an RPG? That seems a bit much. Now, if your argument is that he knows nothing about the constraints presented by Arena Net's budget, manpower, and technology, then that is totally fair. I'm sure their writers struggle with that all the time. The topic that Price expounded on was much broader than that, though.
You're right that politeness doesn't excuse an obvious transgression, but that's not what happened at all. His words didn't even assume that Price or Arena Net had never considered a branching dialogue system. He just disagreed that their choice was the best and stated that he prefers branching dialogue. It's something that gets used in a lot of games after all, so he probably has first hand experience with it. There are probably plenty of reasons why Arena Net does not or cannot implement it, but none of those were elaborated upon, so it's not like Deroir was just ignoring what she was saying and pulling a Well Actually.
But what you are describing already happens in a CRPG!. That subgenre has the same exact shit as Dragon Age, instead is not streamlined as as "Optimisitc, sarcastic and agressive", usually CRPG has a lot of more of nuanced options as any dialogue option is not defined as "agressive", or as a general mood, the dialogue itself if the one defining how the response comes off. So instead of "Agressive", CRPG (and many others RPG, just nothing how silly is to separate it, like you are doing it) offers a straight dialogue ("Drop the weapon, or I will shoot you in the leg") or multiple similar stances that makes a similar interaction (being "Agressive") had a lot of difference in how the actual PC is developed.
Can't you see that what Dragon Age did was a streamlined version of the multiple dialogue choices from CRPG?
Or that before Dragon Age, Bioware used, instead of that system, a pure dialogue choice system?
Is very funny seeing you telling people that what DA dialogue choice system wasn't on CRPG, like dude, it was already there 20+ years ago...
Also, DA proves kinda what Price was saying: People argued that the description of these choices was to basic and you couldn't see what they entailed, so you could choose "agressive" expecting something mild, and you get a very strong reaction from your character. Or the fact there was no nuance, maybe you wanted to be just a bit agressive, but you could only choose 3 very limiting aspects to create the Hawke you wanted.
She's not lumping genres together, you are making a distinction between two things that are basically the same.
She believes that what you described dosn't work, because people might not feel it represents the character they want to make. In real roleplaying, you are the one making these dialogue choices, you choose your reactions, you "write" your own dialogue, so you can mold your created character without any limitation. As much CRPG options can put, a lot of people may feel they can't make the character they really want, because after all you are choosing options based on what other people wrote for your character. That's what she believes as a writer for many years and after giving it much thought that you did, clearly.
In any case is her personal opinion: She will avoid dialogue choices for PC and look for an alternative way to "insert" the player easily into the mold she's carefully created (as she notes in her thread, there's a lot of work and consideration) and so the player can fill the holes. The rest of the thread is basically all the steps she follows to reach that objective.
So, she wasn't looking to solve a problem, she already considered what Deroir say to her and droped it, is basically "writing RPG 101" stuff, is way older than DA and probably older than Deroir itself. You don't have to agree with her, but she wasn't looking for people to disagree/agree in this particular matter with her or at least they should offer a counterargument to the one she did on the subject.
That simplified dialogue choice system, which I think debuted in Bioware's games with Mass Effect, just asked for less reading from the player because it was a console focused game. It was still the exact same thing in practice, except that you didn't know exactly what your player was going to say, which as you point out, is why people criticized it (preferring the ability to see what your character will say in advance).
You seem to read a lot of stuff that isn't there and then argue against that instead of what I actually wrote in the context of what I was answering to. Thanks but no thanks.
And since you think I was the one that made the distinction of the subgenre CRPG over the ultra broad genre of RPG (so, you know, not silly), then you clearly didn't read Price's tweets and there is no point discussing anything. She was the one talking about CRPGs...
User Warned: Dismissive behaviour, doubling down in a follow up post.
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One of my go-to streamers picked up GW2 a couple of weeks ago and has been enamored with it since. Yesterday someone in chat asked a couple of questions about the game, saying he is eager to jump into the game. After a while then, he commented it was this firing that made him consider playing to begin with.
Think about this. A man with no interest in a game suddenly is eager to throw money at it after a woman was fired. It sets a problematic precedent.
Think about this. A man with no interest in a game suddenly is eager to throw money at it after a woman was fired. It sets a problematic precedent.
/thread
What a sad state of affairs. So tiresome too, when I just want to read about games.
I wonder if the reason the discussion in the comments is much better than what you'd normally expect from youtube, is because the video isn't titled in a way that it would show up if you're just searching youtube for videos about this case. ie, making it more directed toward this youtuber's followers/GW2 community, thus bringing less of those who only jumped on this story because "OMG! A woman stepped out of the line!!!".
I mean:
Then:
The tone options in DA, you refererred to, are just streamlined version of "dialogue choices". Dialogue choices are present in both RPG adn CRPG since the dawn of times of both, hell, CRPG is a subgenre of RPG. She's is talking about dialogue choices.
But you really go off on a tangent, so whatever.
What do you mean people can say anything? People do say anything this a fact. Serious question have you ever worked in retail or customer service before? Do you think that if someone went up to you and asked you a stupid question about your job that it's ok for you to insult them personally?
This really isn't a difficult concept. She was clearly in the wrong it's telling the most of the arguments revolves around her being unfairly fired rather than saying she shouldn't be reprimanded because make no mistake she would get reprimanded for her actions at a large number of companies.
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Someone call an ambulance for this dude before he dies of terminal lack of self-awareness!
This is absurd. GamerGate folk play games and they play GuildWars 2. They don't walk around beibg ass holes but they come out of the ground any time something controversial comes up. To imply they don't really exist in GW2 shows a complete lack of understanding of who a GamerGate person is. I highly doubt there isn't a game out there that doesn't have GamerGate fans. It's mostly white male gamers. WoW has a paywall and has truck loads of them.