AMD's Timothy Lottes - Native 4K at 30 fps with PS4 image quality requires 7.4 teraflops

jroc74 · Jul 15, 2018

Falconbox said:
How does that work with Xbox One X then? It has 6 teraflops and many multiplatform games have been hitting native 4K.

Think about the base it has to work with. Those same games have to run on a base XBO. Not just the S, the OG one too. I didnt realize it til now, but this line from the OP might help explain it:

VirtuaRacer said:
It's reasonable to assume that Timothy Lottes is speaking in terms of a stable 3840 x 2160 image with zero fluctuation. It had not dawned on me before today that the target for native 4K on a mid generation PS4 might be higher than the benchmark for a mid generation Xbox console when taking into consideration the power of their respective base GPUs.

Mark Cerny himself when asked if 6 teraflops would be enough for native 4K without compromise said it would require a GPU closer to 8 teraflops. Presumably he was thinking of PS4 to PS4 Pro when he offered that answer.

Base PS4: 1.84tf
OG XBO: 1.31tf
One S: 1.4tf

The AMD guy seems to be saying you need 4 times the tf of the base console gpu. 4 times the OG XBO is 5.24, the One S is 5.6.

4 times the base PS4 is 7.36

We have to remember the games have to run on the base consoles too. Then think about the details, effects, frame rate, etc that be in base PS4 games vs base XBO games for multi platform games. Think about all those DF face off threads for the base consoles.....

I assume he specifically said PS4 title for a reason.

c0de said:
It's of no use to compare first party games because that doesn't tell you much. Nobody knows how GTS would look like on an Xbox One or how Forza would look on a PS4.

But, that video is Forza 7 PC, all settings maxed out and 4K/60 vs GTS, 1800P on the Pro. That video to me does give insight. For one the minimum PC requirements for Forza Motorsport 7.And I wonder what the specs of the PC was in that video.

c0de said:
I think 4x is only the role of thumb. Microsoft already said that you don't need to multiply every resource to achieve native 4k.

That may be true, I seriously have no idea, but look at the the OG XBO and One S gpu times 4. Its easy to say that when they are already over it for the gpu tf.

Deleted member 20297 · Jul 15, 2018

jroc74 said:
That may be true, I seriously have no idea, but look at the the OG XBO and One S gpu times 4. Its easy to say that when they are already over it for the gpu tf.

It's only easy for 1080p games on Xbox One, though. And I don't see a reason why they would lie in this case.

kingPaPi · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
Lot of X games achieve 4k30 with very good IQ. Example - Gears, Halo 5, Forza Horizon nd all.

Horizon 4 with dynamic season nd all will have 4k30 option.

Farcry 5 as well

And those who saying there's nothing on PC which can match Horizon Zero Dawn are ignorant and don't know much about PC gaming . Crysis 3 wrecks Horizon Zero Dawn on Ultra.

I'm a gamer ( own all current systems, and a high end pc) , but I don't really agree

PS4 exclusives have really impressed me.

Outside of iq and frame rate how does crisis 3 look better overall graphically?

Saint of Killers · Jul 15, 2018

starfox said:
of course it looks amazing if there is no proper native 4k to show how worse it is in comparison.

Sayin' 4K is not needed is a moot point, when in realty it's just because your own hardware (as is in xbox 1 x) is weakass to deliver it, A necessary evil atm.

DF seem to be impressed with it regardless of X: Why next-gen consoles shouldn't focus on 'true 4K' - With GPU power at a premium, new ideas and technologies must trump pixel-count.

jroc74 · Jul 15, 2018

c0de said:
It's only easy for 1080p games on Xbox One, though. And I don't see a reason why they would lie in this case.

And this is the part that confuses me about this article. One of the links do go more into detail tho.

I was assuming the AMD guy saying a regular PS4 title was factoring in resolution, effects, etc. As in it would need more to hit 4K. I'm lost, and I feel quite a few of us are, lol. Especially those bringing up the One X.

Or is it just him multiplying the gpu tf by 4.

Jakartalado · Jul 15, 2018

Right after DF analysis for the next gen....

I'm on board with next gen using reconstruction techniques. I just wish the next iteration comes with a little bit less "ghosting" artifact. That thing in Watch Dogs 2 gave me so much headache.

And in God of War manages to be more subtle. Horizon is also great. And Gran Turismo Sport is also great.

4k reconstructed and a huge boost in terms of graphical improvements are my main reason to jump early in the next gen.

Brute force 4K for me is a waste of resources. Specially if we are talking about consoles and gamers that play a meter or more away from the TV (and at this distance it makes almost good as 4K native).

Deleted member 20297 · Jul 15, 2018

jroc74 said:
And this is the part that confuses me about this article. One of the links do go more into detail tho.

I was assuming the AMD guy saying a regular PS4 title was factoring in resolution, effects, etc. As in it would need more to hit 4K. I'm lost, and I feel quite a few of us are, lol. Especially those bringing up the One X.

Or is it just him multiplying the gpu tf by 4.

No reason to blame a specific group here, first. He also says it's an estimate and I don't see how it would take more as we already have the math for 7.4 in this thread.
I mean, when we look at Farcry 5 on Xbox One X, it's a game that according to vgtech uses a dynamic resolution but also renders at 4k on Xbox One X. Not always, of course, but it does and 1080p is the resolution for the base PS4 console. The X is already quite close.
In the end it doesn't even matter because we won't see a 7.4 TF console from Sony, the next one will be way higher than this.

icecold1983 · Jul 15, 2018

Seganomics said:
The differences you are highlighting have more to do with time constraints and artistic choices. The Forza and GT teams have very different methods of approach. To say that Turn 10 couldn't produce identical results to the GT Sport examples you show here on X1X at 4K 60 is nonsense.

umm no. rendering higher fidelity art assets is more expensive for the hardware

space_nut said:
100% agree FH4 is insanely graphically impressive. Their new per pixel lighting and rendering every leaf individually with SSS. Best thing is both native 4k and 60fps modes

they dont render every leaf individually. its absurd to even post such a statement.

Shoshi · Jul 15, 2018

I think the recent DF video's conclusion was that native 4K is redundant if all developers have access to the best quality CBR - which would provide headroom for 60fps in next gen

DrDeckard · Jul 15, 2018

Next gen should focus on frame rate with freesync Tvs and Microsoft needs to make sure they are the most powerful out the gate, imo. (If they want to be successful next gen)

If prefer to have native 4k but I'm a big fan of variable resolution that fluctuates under load. As long as it's handled well.

Paz · Jul 15, 2018

I think a few people have mentioned this here but isn't the comment basically just a multiplication?

PS4 teraflops multiplied by 4 = the rendering performance for a ps4 game in native 4K (At a basic level this kind of holds up, though there are many more nuances and not all things scale linearly).

Now there's arguments about Forza and other stuff stemming from what is really such a simple comment....

Edit - For what it's worth I think discussing native resolutions is going to mean less and less as we move forward with consoles, modern game images are a composite of so many elements being rendered in different ways, I'd be shocked if most native 4K games actually calculate everything in 4K even next gen because certain things just don't need it and others just do not scale well at all.

thuway · Jul 15, 2018

Honestly, the chase for true 4K is getting a little bit annoying. I'd rather developer's prioritize things like animation quality and render better vegetation / environments / physics than focus on purely pixel count.

kostacurtas · Jul 15, 2018

RudeBoy said:
Absolutely NEVER use PC benchmarks to measure console performance. I have no idea why people still do this...

In this gen, PlayStation obliterated PC when it comes to video game visuals.

Thank you for this, I will try to learn from now on.

Or maybe you should read my post and the post I am quoting because in both we are discussing clearly about the PC version of FM7.

Putty · Jul 15, 2018

It's not rocket science. X hits 4k on a number of titles, Pro less so. ANYTHING can be 4k if made that way from the start. Clearly though the VAST majority of titles use all kinds of methods to achieve a higher resolution while retaining high levels of graphical detail and effects. Next gen...with 12tf, a SERIOUS cpu upgrade, increased mem bandwidth, more ram...4k with ALL the bells and whistles will be quite the sight. Exciting times just around the corner.

Remo Williams · Jul 15, 2018

jroc74 said:
Or is it just him multiplying the gpu tf by 4.

That's all it is. You guys are making a lot of fuss over an offhand remark.

Yoshi · Jul 15, 2018

I woul djust like not to pay for extra tech for 4k. It's annoying that every gen there is a push for even higher resolution. Use the power for something important instead, e.g. framerate.

AlexxKidd · Jul 15, 2018

All i know is Horizon Zero Dawn is the best looking game ive ever seen in my life. Still. Over a year later. For all the talk about God of War's graphics, i think HZD still smokes it. Just amazing what they did with that game to get it to look like that. It doesnt have the facial perfections of a Naughty Dog title, but then again if it did this wouldnt even be fair. Guess they had to leave something to improve upon for the next one.

Fastidioso · Jul 15, 2018

Falconbox said:
How does that work with Xbox One X then? It has 6 teraflops and many multiplatform games have been hitting native 4K.

"Many". I can count that many in a single hand. Without offence.

space_nut · Jul 15, 2018

icecold1983 said:
umm no. rendering higher fidelity art assets is more expensive for the hardware

they dont render every leaf individually. its absurd to even post such a statement.

If you watched the stream, they talked about the rendering and stated that

tzare · Jul 15, 2018

Seems reasonable. While it is obvious that some games can reach that with less power, xbx and even ps4 pro do, seems the sweet spot power wise for the majority of games to achieve that. Xb one was also supposed to be a 1080p machine and has had trouble being consistent so imo people saying that XBX already does that are wrong. It is closer than ps4pro but not there yet.

Wiped · Jul 15, 2018

Klobrille said:
Ehm. Guess I don't agree. Really don't.

Gears 4 is definitely in the same ballpark. Same for Quantum Break. Forza Horizon 3 on the X is pretty much the most beautiful racing game this generation so far, with FH4 only being even better.

Even a stylistic game like Sea of Thieves looks like a perfect drawing at 4K + HDR on the machine.

Then I won't even begin with absolutely beautiful third-party titles like SWBF2 or ACO that obviously look the best on the machine, too.

Mate I've played both Quantum Break and God of War on a 4K OLED and if you think they are even close in image quality, you need your eyes testing

Elfotografoalocado · Jul 15, 2018

jroc74 said:
And this is the part that confuses me about this article. One of the links do go more into detail tho.

I was assuming the AMD guy saying a regular PS4 title was factoring in resolution, effects, etc. As in it would need more to hit 4K. I'm lost, and I feel quite a few of us are, lol. Especially those bringing up the One X.

Or is it just him multiplying the gpu tf by 4.

Games that run at 1080p30 on the PS4 and at 900p on the XBOX One do not run at "true" 4K on the X, that is, rendering all 8 million pixels. None does to my knowledge, unless it's using a dynamic res and it reaches 4K sometimes or whatever. That's simply because if you want to push four times the samples of the same scene using the same shading model, LoDs, etc. you simply need four times the compute power. Simple as that. Like, the cost may be a bit lower because there are fixed tasks like the shadow maps or some compute or whatever, but you typically increase at least some of those when you increase the resolution and it all evens out.
So what he's saying is right. The XBOX One X is not a machine with 4 times the GPU compute power of the PS4, so it cannot push 4 times the pixels of the same underlying game. It can come perceptually very close.
However, if the next-gen systems of 2020 have around 12 TFLOPs of a similar ALU architecture, that means all they will be able to do is take what the X does and double the framerate at the same resolution, provided the jump in hardware would be based on CPU performance. Which, to be honest, sounds fine to me.

TitanicFall · Jul 15, 2018

klik said:
Maybe for you. For most of people it looks almost the same. Definitely not 500$ 7-8TF better.

That's why i got bored with PC gaming in general. I dont want to pay 500-600$ for gpu only to look slighly better and have to pixel search the differences.

Got to do that Digital Foundry 200% zoom first. However framerate and mods often push me to the PC side for multiplatform titles.

jroc74 · Jul 15, 2018

Elfotografoalocado said:
Games that run at 1080p30 on the PS4 and at 900p on the XBOX One do not run at "true" 4K on the X, that is, rendering all 8 million pixels. None does to my knowledge, unless it's using a dynamic res and it reaches 4K sometimes or whatever. That's simply because if you want to push four times the samples of the same scene using the same shading model, LoDs, etc. you simply need four times the compute power. Simple as that. Like, the cost may be a bit lower because there are fixed tasks like the shadow maps or some compute or whatever, but you typically increase at least some of those when you increase the resolution and it all evens out.
So what he's saying is right. The XBOX One X is not a machine with 4 times the GPU compute power of the PS4, so it cannot push 4 times the pixels of the same underlying game. It can come perceptually very close.
However, if the next-gen systems of 2020 have around 12 TFLOPs of a similar ALU architecture, that means all they will be able to do is take what the X does and double the framerate at the same resolution, provided the jump in hardware would be based on CPU performance. Which, to be honest, sounds fine to me.

Ok, thanks for the info.

Yea, by him saying PS4 title, when he says the One X cant do it either, he has to be saying that in relation to a PS4 game.

Those that keep bringing up Forza Motorsport 7, or well X game on One X can do it, if the AMD guy is multiplying the gpu tf by 4, the base gpus in the OG One and One S are weaker than the base gpu in the PS4. The gpu in the One X is 6tf. The one in the Pro is 4.2?

The X gpu is already 4 times that of the One S, the Pro isnt for the PS4.

c0de said:
No reason to blame a specific group here, first. He also says it's an estimate and I don't see how it would take more as we already have the math for 7.4 in this thread.
I mean, when we look at Farcry 5 on Xbox One X, it's a game that according to vgtech uses a dynamic resolution but also renders at 4k on Xbox One X. Not always, of course, but it does and 1080p is the resolution for the base PS4 console. The X is already quite close.
In the end it doesn't even matter because we won't see a 7.4 TF console from Sony, the next one will be way higher than this.

I agree, both the PS5 and next XBO will be more than this, next gen should be fine.

But if its games that has to be able to run on the OG and One S, that could be a reason why the X is able to do it. The X has a weaker baseline to work with. The gpu in it already covers 4 times the OG and One S.

We have to remember the base consoles.....they do still exist.

One thing I didnt even realize until this thread....the OG XBO gpu. The One X has to account for that too, not just the One S.

Dinjoralo · Jul 15, 2018

kostacurtas said:
For sure you don't need 7.4TF to achieve 4K/30 (even on ultra settings) on the PC version of Forza Motorsport 7.

The AMD RX 570 is enough for that and has 5.1TF.

Uh... Whoa, those are impressive numbers for Ultra@4K. I thought Forza 7 had busted performance on PC?

kostacurtas · Jul 15, 2018

Dinjoralo said:
Uh... Whoa, those are impressive numbers for Ultra@4K. I thought Forza 7 had busted performance on PC?

Maybe you remember issues about the PC version of Forza Horizon 3. Especially complaints for stable 60 fps.

I think in general the optimization on PC version of Forza Motorsport 7 is really good.

It's the only game that I can play at 8K/60 (ultra and high settings, 1080Ti).

RevenantAxe · Jul 15, 2018

kingPaPi said:
I'm a gamer ( own all current systems, and a high end pc) , but I don't really agree

PS4 exclusives have really impressed me.

Outside of iq and frame rate how does crisis 3 look better overall graphically?

Horizon Dawn and GOW uses lot of pre baked stuff. Lighting, foliage nd all way better in Crysis 3.

You post your best Horizon Zero Dawn screenshots then I post Crysis screenshots. Let's see which looks better.

RevenantAxe · Jul 15, 2018

AMD and Mark cerny both posting nonsense. X proves that with good optimizations you can achieve 4k with amazing IQ

Putty · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
Horizon Dawn and GOW uses lot of pre baked stuff. Lighting, foliage nd all way better in Crysis 3.

You post your best Horizon Zero Dawn screenshots then I post Crysis screenshots. Let's see which looks better.

Or infact don't do that and post in a more fitting thread.

YolkFolk · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
AMD and Mark cerny both posting nonsense. X proves that with good optimizations you can achieve 4k with amazing IQ

I think they're saying the X isn't powerful enough to run a game like Horizon in native 4K.

Kyoufu · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
AMD and Mark cerny both posting nonsense. X proves that with good optimizations you can achieve 4k with amazing IQ

lol, yes I'm sure AMD who designed these systems have no idea what they're talking about.

Thanks for the laugh.

RevenantAxe · Jul 15, 2018

ManCityX said:
I think they're saying the X isn't powerful enough to run a game like Horizon in native 4K.

Port it on X and let's see.

kostacurtas · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
AMD and Mark cerny both posting nonsense. X proves that with good optimizations you can achieve 4k with amazing IQ

+1

AMD should comment only about things they design and manufacture and not about things they don't have a clue.

/s

Crayon · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
Port it on X and let's see.

Sure brb.

RevenantAxe · Jul 15, 2018

Crayon said:
Sure brb.

Cerny was same guy who boasting Fp 16 and saying Pro can do 8 TF magically lol.

I don't trust him one bit .

Hey Please · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
Cerny was same guy who boasting Fp 16 and saying Pro can do 8 TF magically lol.

I don't trust him one bit .

Please provide proof of this.

starfox · Jul 15, 2018

ManCityX said:
I think they're saying the X isn't powerful enough to run a game like Horizon in native 4K.

Horizon 4 is going to be 4K (with concessions) and its arguably the best looking racer out there, like Driveclub.

Kyoufu · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
Cerny was same guy who boasting Fp 16 and saying Pro can do 8 TF magically lol.

I don't trust him one bit .

Yes, PS4 Pro's GPU has 8.4TF performance using FP16.

You can google this.

Ra · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
Cerny was same guy who boasting Fp 16 and saying Pro can do 8 TF magically lol.

I don't trust him one bit .

Slow down, your console warrior is starting to creep out.

As if the fact that you doubt a person from the AMD Game Engineering team isn't bad enough.

Falconbox · Jul 15, 2018

Fastidioso said:
"Many". I can count that many in a single hand. Without offence.

There's plenty. You may just not be aware of them.

Conmex · Jul 15, 2018

Suzushiiro said:
The same game also runs at 1080p60 on the 1.3TF original XBone. The Xbone X is 6TF, more than four times that of the OG XBone, so the principle still applies. Similarly, the Kingdom Hearts HD collections all run at native 4k60 on the PS4 Pro because they're ports of games that ran at 480p30 on a 6.2GF machine.

forza 7 in 4k hdr looks better than any 60 fps racer on ps4 though.

Kyoufu · Jul 15, 2018

Falconbox said:
There's plenty. You may just not be aware of them.

Can you list them? I don't think there are that many AAA 3rd party titles that run at a native 4K resolution. Even Far Cry 5 which DF originally thought was native was incorrect.

Fact of the matter is, 6TF isn't enough for the vast majority of AAA titles.

kostacurtas · Jul 15, 2018

Conmex said:
forza 7 in 4k hdr looks better than any 60 fps racer on ps4 though.

+1

/s

pixelation · Jul 15, 2018

DieH@rd said:
Devs should stick to [good] checkerboarded 4K even when nextgen hardware arrives. They should not waste all their resources on native 4K.

PREACH!

potatohead · Jul 15, 2018

kostacurtas said:
+1

/s

Yeah it's ridiculous how people suggest that still

Lighting and production value on gt is another level doesn't matter what resolution other games are at doesn't look nearly as realistic

When gt gets global illumination in car view for ps5 it's gonna be bananas

SK4TE · Jul 15, 2018

gueras said:
Tbh I don't think Xbox has any game with the graphics quality of god of war, horizon zero Dawn and uncharted 4. Not even close.

Resolution is really different than graphics.

Gears 4 stands with those games.

Hey Please · Jul 15, 2018

It's pathetic how fast this thread turned into PS v XB console war BS.

SK4TE said:
Gears 4 stands with those games.

Sort of sad how often the game gets overlooked because on X, it looks truly astounding. That said, what blew my mind is how notable are the improvements to Gears 5 in comparison.

Kuosi · Jul 15, 2018

This thread turned out exactly like one would expect it to, sadly

jroc74 · Jul 15, 2018

RevenantAxe said:
AMD and Mark cerny both posting nonsense. X proves that with good optimizations you can achieve 4k with amazing IQ

Something is getting lost in translation for these late posts...not reading the OP or the thread?

ManCityX said:
I think they're saying the X isn't powerful enough to run a game like Horizon in native 4K.

Yup. Because it used a 1.8tf gpu as its base. That some ppl seems to forget the base consoles exist and they have to be accounted for is strange.

RevenantAxe said:
Port it on X and let's see.

Do a straight 1:1 port? Or make concessions that have to factor in the OG XBO gpu...

Even if you're saying 1:1 port or to be exclusive to the One X, I think it still wont work without concessions.

Anything can be ported to work on other hardware that it wouldnt normally work on, just depends on what you have to omit. Thats not what this topic is about. Its about taking the gpu in the base consoles and multiplying by 4.

Doing that, the One X wouldnt be able to run Horizon at native 4K as is based on this topic.

SK4TE · Jul 15, 2018

BigTnaples said:
We do know what we were watching, but very well.

Uncharted 4
Horizon Zero Dawn
The Order 1886
Spiderman
God of War
Detroit

etc etc..

Is there an announced PC game I can look forward to that pushes my rigs in any substantial way? No. Point stands...

Are you really using 30fps games as an example?

AMD's Timothy Lottes - Native 4K at 30 fps with PS4 image quality requires 7.4 teraflops

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