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Oct 25, 2017
1,705
Sorry but being a video game writer is not a scientifically backed job like a psychiatrist or astronomer.

psychiatry and astronomy are not solved fields - no field is solved - and there is plenty of room for creativity, discussion, and debate in them

that said, i understand why a psychiatrist would get snippy about questions on freudian psychoanalysis or an astronomer would get snippy about questions on the earth being flat

deroir wasn't that egregious and was pattern-matched in with the legion who does ask questions of that caliber: it is an unfortunate circumstance, but not one that exists in isolation

Why do you keep talking about unrelated shit and comparing it to this specific situation as if there is any relevance? I guess it shows that you have no argument for what happened here if all you can do is cook up increasingly crazy and unrelated analogies using professions and fields that have nothing to do with game design or creative writing.

i'm responding to multiple posts and trying to relate the ideas of interpersonal dynamics to other situations - in particular, i draw analogy to psychology because i've had to deal with those same questions quite often when i talk about something in the field

i'm sorry if you're upset that i haven't gotten to you yet, i have a finite amount of time

I still can't believe people are trying to make Deroir's comments out to be shitty

not everything has to fall into the "shitty/not shitty" dichotomy
 

Pazmatic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
96
I've already posted that in this thread. If you'd like, you can go back to read it.

If you don't want to go through this whole thread, the Beaglerush tweet thread that's been going around says basically the same thing.
Would you walk up to someone in public and just start saying "Cool topic, but I have to disagree, the question you're struggling with is because of restraints you placed on yourself with your previous design"?

You don't get to engage with anyone on equal footing just because you're both on social media. You can critique the work of a chef if you want, but if you do it to their face and act like you know as much about cooking as they do, expect to get an earful.

I honestly think we can't agree then. There was absolutely nothing shitty about what he said. It was a fan trying to have a discussion with a writer he respects in a follow up after an AMA that she put on.
 

prag16

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
848
Note to self: don't hire people who tell you at the job interview that they like to be assholes on social media.
Haha this made me laugh out loud. Her friends in the industry may 'have her back' nominally but I guess we'll see if any of them will actually hire or convince anyone else to hire her, given the pattern of antics.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
It'll be interesting to see if any devs/community managers who found her response perfectly justified start treating their own communities like shit in solidarity

it'll be interesting to see if any of the communities upset over this start treating game devs and community managers - or even their own fellow players - with this standard of civility
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,240
Honest question, I really didn't see this stated much on GAF over the years and hardly ever said here (before now). How is it we've had generations of any field of art or creative content face millions of customers talk about what they think works, what they didn't like, what they might like to see instead and also a wall of reviews in every field imaginable? Book reviews, game reviews, film reviews and everything else.

But now, it's all of a sudden condescending or rude, by default, or inherently, to comment on any work carried out by a professional?



How have we disregarded years and years and years of navigating the realms of creative content and feedback/response and bundled it neatly into "basically never speak your opinion on something you paid for/consumed because it's just rude".

People can be rude in how they speak or deliver feedback, sure, but how do we get to EVERY bit of feedback uttered unless you are a professional of some sorts is rude and condescending?

My brain is doing cartwheels right now trying to understand how someone on a hardcore gaming forum, surrounded by previews/reviews, E3 and years of critique of the industry can say something as definitive as the above without questioning how much it conflicts with real life. There are lengthy topics on this forum spending hours of real time critiquing and stating why game X or game Y should be different and the devs should consider changes.

All of that is rude and condescending unless Hideo Kojima or someone else personally asks you for feedback?

This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

Why are you mentioning any of these things that did not happen?

This was on Twitter and a continuation of an "ASK ME ANYTHING" session on Reddit. It's completely public on a platform that encourages people to join the conversation. Deroir's comment was prompted by a statement from Price that all but declared a problem impossible, which is just asking for people to disagree.
 
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Dorkmgl

Member
Oct 26, 2017
72
I'm surprised so many other game developers are up in arms. Its kind of a mess now after the fact with everything being slung around and blown out of proportion.

Every studio I've worked at since Twitter became a thing has a social media policy. The rules are generally along the lines of "Don't engage the audience with direct conversation without explicit permission" and "Maintain an appropriate professional representation of yourself and the company in any direct engagements".

I don't think the developers here did either of these things and should have known better regardless of their personal hangups.

Maybe a 1 time and you're done rule is a bit overboard but we also don't know what these folks may or may not have been reprimanded or warned over in the past.
 

Razor Mom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
2,546
United Kingdom
This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.
The fuck? He wanted to have a genuine conversation with her on an open forum about a topic she was talking about publicly. Honestly, you guys are something else. Now we literally can't try and spark up pleasant conversation with people unless they have explicitly stated they're open to communication over a particular topic? Christ...
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
I'm surprised so many other game developers are up in arms. Its kind of a mess now after the fact with everything being slung around and blown out of proportion.

Every studio I've worked at since Twitter became a thing has a social media policy. The rules are generally along the lines of "Don't engage the audience with direct conversation without explicit permission" and "Maintain an appropriate professional representation of yourself and the company in any direct engagements".

I don't think the developers here did either of these things and should have known better regardless of their personal hangups.

Maybe a 1 time and you're done rule is a bit overboard but we also don't know what these folks may or may not have been reprimanded or warned over in the past.

It seems like for some people, the fact that they were not explicitly told not to insult people absolves them of blame
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
That tweet thread is incredibly slanted. By like his third tweet, he unfairly paraphrases Deroir as saying "It's actually not that hard, do this".

He then obfusicated the order of events with tweets like this



This doesn't clearly paint the picture that she also Quote-tweeted him, and called him an asshat before Deroir even had a chance to even feel 'victimized'. He cherry picked JP's first, most benign tweet and acts like Deroir is being a drama queen for overreacting to it, ignoring her higher volume ones.


The beaglerush thread is hot garbage, deliberately misleads the timeline of tweets to fit his narrative, and the bulk of it's content is him theorizing malicious intent and vile subtext into Deroir's response. I don't know why so many people are posting it saying "PREACH!"
 
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Dorkmgl

Member
Oct 26, 2017
72
It seems like for some people, the fact that they were not explicitly told not to insult people absolves them of blame

I feel like Peter Fries summed up their mistaken views nicely in his Twitter post about how these are their private places to discuss things without being bothered by strangers.

No, its not.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
The beaglerush thread is hot garbage, deliberately misleads the timeline of tweets to fit his narrative, and the bulk of it's content is him theorizing malicious intent and vial subtext into Deroir's response. I don't know why so many people are posting it saying "PREACH!"

Because it's a Twitter thread and people like to do that with Twitter threads.
 

Deleted member 4021

Oct 25, 2017
1,707
So she's doubling down, and blaming every single person but herself. Cool. Stunning lack of self awareness and/or self reflection. I don't think this sends the message she thinks this sends, and the consensus of the game journalists, once again, is at odds with the general audience (and common sense), which is happening more and more frequently of late.
The "general audience" is full of gamergators who hate women, so it's not really an insult to say game journalists have a different consensus.
 

Xaero Gravity

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,144
User Banned (Permanent): History of misogyny + downplaying concerns over sexism as false outrage
The beaglerush thread is hot garbage, deliberately misleads the timeline of tweets to fit his narrative, and the bulk of it's content is him theorizing malicious intent and vial subtext into Deroir's response. I don't know why so many people are posting it saying "PREACH!"
Probably because it conveniently fits their narrative and further allows the usual suspects around here to feed their compulsive need to bitch about and "fight" for something.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
To what questions are you referring?

a good example from my own life is people saying "but haven't you heard of [famous experiment from fifty years ago with significant methodological issues and questionable validity]" when i try to make a nuanced point about certain topics in psychology.

i wish i could say to them "yes, i too have heard about one of the most widely known studies in the field", but i recognize that would be rude and choose not to.

a lot of my female friends and colleagues get this a lot - i recall in one class during term presentations there was one guy who tried to "expose" every female presenter with a smug look on his face, but really ended up looking like a fool because he was asking questions all from that unwritten "list" of excessively common undercooked criticisms: and it isn't just me who found that annoying, the whole class ended up finding his insinuations irritating.

i don't think deroir intended that, but what i'm trying to explain is that price's reaction does not exist in isolation.

How about we look at the actual example in question? Despite it ostensibly being her job to do so, Price said that she thinks it might be impossible to write compelling player characters in RPGs that allow the player to create their own character and have ownership over them and that the only viable option is to write inoffensive Bella Swans dialogue so no one is repelled by a reaction they don't think their character would do. This is absolutely something that invites disagreement, and it's something that I doubt tons of writers of CRPGs would agree with.

Sure, the ArenaNet budget constraints may prevent giving options to players, but that's not how the argument was presented at all.

No, it is not. He's not even saying his approach is "right," just that it would allow for more roleplaying options. It might help to understand that there aren't often singularly correct solutions to creative problems.

that sounds easy to do, but isn't for the reasons given, and no one likes the insinuation that they failed to consider something easy. those are the suggestions people dislike the most. it is the "but did you try laying down in bed and relaxing?" said to insomnia sufferers. none of those people mean to insinuate anything bad by saying that, but you get why that would be annoying, right?

price overreacted to it, but when you're dealing with that insinuation constantly it gets frustrating.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
Between your labored analogies and tired parroting I'm really not taking you seriously at all.

ah, so it seems that i've made my point clear :)

it will be interesting to see if any of the communities upset over this start treating game devs and community managers - or even their own fellow players - with this standard of civility
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
a good example from my own life is people saying "but haven't you heard of [famous experiment from fifty years ago with significant methodological issues and questionable validity]" when i try to make a nuanced point about certain topics in psychology.

i wish i could say to them "yes, i too have heard about one of the most widely known studies in the field", but i recognize that would be rude and choose not to.

a lot of my female friends and colleagues get this a lot - i recall in one class during term presentations there was one guy who tried to "expose" every female presenter with a smug look on his face, but really ended up looking like a fool because he was asking questions all from that unwritten "list" of excessively common undercooked criticisms: and it isn't just me who found that annoying, the whole class ended up finding his insinuations irritating.

i don't think deroir intended that, but what i'm trying to explain is that price's reaction does not exist in isolation.

So, there weren't any questions to which you were referring when coming up with all of these unrelated analogies and personal anecdotes in an attempt to relate with Price and her plight as a working professional woman? OK... You just wanted to rant about your own frustrations in life, I see. Fine, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

that sounds easy to do, but isn't for the reasons given, and no one likes the insinuation that they failed to consider something easy. those are the suggestions people dislike the most. it is the "but did you try laying down in bed and relaxing?" said to insomnia sufferers. none of those people mean to insinuate anything bad by saying that, but you get why that would be annoying, right?

price overreacted to it, but when you're dealing with that insinuation constantly it gets frustrating.

What reasons were given by Price? Nothing about branching dialogue was mentioned at all. All of her points seemed to assume that dialogue options were off the table, which they probably were due to budget or manpower constraints, but that was never clearly laid out. She presented it as a foregone conclusion for the entire genre, when it's pretty easy for anyone who has played enough RPGs to know that that is not the case.
 

kaɪt

Member
Feb 28, 2018
29
User Banned (2 Weeks): Downplaying the influence and impact of harassment movements + downplaying institutional sexism
So she's doubling down, and blaming every single person but herself. Cool. Stunning lack of self awareness and/or self reflection. I don't think this sends the message she thinks this sends, and the consensus of the game journalists, once again, is at odds with the general audience (and common sense), which is happening more and more frequently of late.

I tried to make that post neutral in case no one saw it yet, but this is where I'm at with her as well. The lack of awareness is quite amazing actually. She is somehow still painting this as a sexism issue where there were none atleast until she made it one (out of nothing such as bringing up mansplaining). She pretty much ignored why she got fired and instead went off explaining how she got fired (painting herself as the victim) and how it's a warning to all devs, in particular female devs, what it means in the industry if the committee wants you fired, you'll be fired.
 

Deleted member 4021

Oct 25, 2017
1,707
I tried to make that post neutral in case no one saw it yet, but this is where I'm at with her as well. The lack of awareness is quite amazing actually. She is somehow still painting this as a sexism issue where there were none atleast until she made it one (out of nothing such as bringing up mansplaining). She pretty much ignored why she got fired and instead went off explaining how she got fired (painting herself as the victim) and how it's a warning to all devs, in particular female devs, what it means in the industry if the committee wants you fired, you'll be fired.
Ignoring the GG hate mob which was after her from day 1 and is harassing other female game devs trying to get them fired is a good look.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
ah, so it seems that i've made my point clear :)

it will be interesting to see if any of the communities upset over this start treating game devs and community managers - or even their own fellow players - with this standard of civility

If your point is that you don't understand that an employer-employee relationship and that between two people playing a game are different then yes, that's clear.

If your point is that you don't understand that the existence of other disrespectful interactions between people does not make this one acceptable then yes, that's also clear.

Price being targeted by gamergate does not somehow make her behavior here laudable or acceptable even though many people seem to think it does.
 

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.

I like how you conflate using Twitter as it's intended between public profiles with finding personal phone numbers and/or confronting people on the street as if that is somehow equal. That is absolutely ridiculous.

Jessica had identified herself as an ArenaNet employee on Reddit and Twitter, had been discussing Episode 3 storytelling with fans on Reddit, then had written a 25-part tweet about how we tell stories in MMOs, relating it back to Episode 3. She was representing the company. The expectation was to behave professionally and respectfully, or at least walk away. Instead, she attacked.

Concerns have been publicly raised that she was responding to harassment. It's not my place to tell employees when they should or shouldn't feel harassed. In this case, however, our employees could have chosen not to engage, and they could have brought the issue to the company, whereby we would have done everything we could to protect them.

We won't tolerate harassment. When an employee feels harassed, we want them to bring the issue to us, so that we can protect the employee, deal with the issue, and use it to speak to the larger issue of harassment.

Whatever Jessica and Peter felt internally about the situation, this was objectively a customer engaging us respectfully and professionally, presenting a suggestion for our game. Any response from our company needed to be respectful and professional. A perceived slight doesn't give us license to attack.

We've all dedicated our careers to entertaining people, to making games for the purpose of delighting those who play them. We generally have a wonderful relationship with our community, and that's a point of pride for us. We want to hear from our players. It's not acceptable that an attempted interaction with our company — in this case a polite game suggestion — would be met with open hostility and derision from us. That sets a chilling precedent.

The tweets were made on July 4, when the studio was closed for the holiday. We were aware of them that day, and decided we'd need to take action in the morning. The fact that the community's anger was escalating on July 5 could make it look like our action was a response to the community's anger. But that wasn't the case. We took action as soon as we practicably could.

I hate to let an employee go, and I wish the best for Jessica and Peter, as for any former employee, in whatever they choose to do next.

Whatever you thought of the tweets, Jessica and Peter were also part of the team that brought you the kidnapping scene in Episode 1, which was a wonderfully well-executed scene. That's how I want to remember their time at ArenaNet.

Jessica was discussing Guild Wars on her social platforms, so people were responding. That tends to be how public social media operates. If you want an exclusively private account, make your account private. No one deserves shit coming their way on a public account, but let's not make up elaborate unwritten rules of life that no single person can speak their opinion on a product they buy, let alone give feedback to those who made it.

I'm assuming positive feedback is somehow exempt from this? Or do you think no positive feedback should be given either unless someone explicitly asks for it? Sending an @ response to Cory Barlog on Twitter to say God of War "4" is your favourite game and Atreus is well written could be "going over the line"? I mean, does someone even need to be a professional to dare utter such words on Twitter in the first place? Who knows, I've learned today that it's a held belief that apparently you better be a game dev to discuss storytelling or the use of multiple-choice/branching storytelling in games. I guess we better stop criticizing David Cage and his branching storytelling if we aren't writers ourselves!

Sorry for getting a little sarcastic, but some of the takes in this topic seriously cause me to scratch my head coming from NeoGAF to another hardcore gaming forum rife with direct feedback for devs. Many posters on here probably @ replying devs on Twitter all the time. If it's done politely and it's a public account, that's how Twitter works. Devs can choose to mute replies or not read them if it's too time-consuming [speaking about genuine/decent replies that come their way, as no, devs don't owe you a reply and don't always have the time to respond to thousands of questions/comments].
 
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oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,015
UK
i don't think deroir intended that, but what i'm trying to explain is that price's reaction does not exist in isolation.

Even if we accept this, and I do accept this, does that mean every 100th person who speaks to her on Twitter is a free hit to attack because it's annoying being an expert in a field a ton of people are passionate about?

If she went in on someone who was actually being condescending and sexist and antagonistic, I doubt she'd be sacked, and her employer would probably back her

If someone messaged her and said "Get back in the kitchen and out of my games, you don't know jack about story in games" and she replied "Today in being a female game dev..." she'd still have her job

If she is someone who has had to deal with harassment before, which I'm sure she has, because sadly this is the world we live in and the world is full of man babies, why on earth pick this guy to shit all over?

I think she should have been reprimanded and made to apologise. I don't think she should have been sacked (though I can understand why she was) and I 100% feel for the women who work in the games industry who are targeted day in, day out with all kinds of crap from the lowest specks of shit on the internet, but that doesn't mean she is automatically always in the right, and in this specific situation, she was in the wrong, and she doubled down on it

No reaching projection onto the streamers intentions will change that
 
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Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Sending an @ response to Cory Barlog on Twitter to say God of War 4 is your favourite game and Atreus is well written could be "going over the line"?

"How the fuck would you know what is or isn't well written, asshat rando."

Would apparently be an appropriate response from Barlog if you ask some folks in this thread.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,240
Why are you mentioning any of these things that did not happen?

This was on Twitter and a continuation of an "ASK ME ANYTHING" session on Reddit. It's completely public on a platform that encourages people to join the conversation. Deroir's comment was prompted by a statement from Price that all but declared a problem impossible, which is just asking for people to disagree.

It was not a continuation of her AMA. She made herself available for a period during that AMA for people to ask questions. The things she talked about in the AMA stirred some thoughts so she wrote a thing. She does not solicit questions and does not suggest that she's extending that AMA into Twitter.

And, again, just because you and her both have social media accounts on the same service does not mean you are entitled to a conversation with her on equal footing.

And there's an easy way to tell if someone is asking for disagreement, which is that they literally ask. If they haven't, you shouldn't assume they are.
 

i20bot

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
292
This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.
She wrote on a public platform with 8k followers or so. Do you not expect at least one person to comment? I'm pretty sure that's what one looks for when one's posting on a public forum and themselves having over 8k followers because they want others to see it.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
23,611
Baffling is definitely the right word. People doing insane gymnastics to paint him as a "toxic element" simply because his post was the catalyst for this incident.

Agreed. The toxic element was all the GG'ers and shit latching onto this and also Arenanet folding like a goddamn house of cards so quickly to appeal to the worst of their fan base.

The actual exchange between the two parties has gotten way too much attention here. Everything that is bad about this incident firmly rests on Arenanet's shoulders. They caved to GG and set a bad precedent where we have GG'ers out there literally thinking they can get anyone they want fired now.
 
Nov 2, 2017
2,240
She wrote on a public platform with 8k followers or so. Do you not expect at least one person to comment? I'm pretty sure that's what one looks for when one's posting on a public forum and themselves having over 8k followers because they want others to see it.

Wanting people to see it and wanting people with zero experience to tell her she's wrong about the thing she does professionally are two very different things.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,800
It was not a continuation of her AMA. She made herself available for a period during that AMA for people to ask questions. The things she talked about in the AMA stirred some thoughts so she wrote a thing. She does not solicit questions and does not suggest that she's extending that AMA into Twitter.

And, again, just because you and her both have social media accounts on the same service does not mean you are entitled to a conversation with her on equal footing.

And there's an easy way to tell if someone is asking for disagreement, which is that they literally ask. If they haven't, you shouldn't assume they are.

Nah, that's just not how Twitter works. You don't broadcast to an audience and then lash out when they respond. It's the same a forum like this without the anonymity. The nature of the platform invites discussion and responses. If you don't want that, then hit up Livejournal or start a blog elsewhere with comments disabled.

This whole "not entitled to a conversation on equal footing" is some arrogant nonsense. Whoever thinks that ways needs to get the fuck off of their high horse and most definitely stop using Twitter or at the very least simply choose to not respond.

Wanting people to see it and wanting people with zero experience to tell her she's wrong about the thing she does professionally are two very different things.

So you want the reach that Twitter affords, but don't want the open discussion part of it that is the entire reason it's such a popular platform in the first place. It's great to want things.
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
psychiatry and astronomy are not solved fields - no field is solved - and there is plenty of room for creativity, discussion, and debate in them

that said, i understand why a psychiatrist would get snippy about questions on freudian psychoanalysis or an astronomer would get snippy about questions on the earth being flat

deroir wasn't that egregious and was pattern-matched in with the legion who does ask questions of that caliber: it is an unfortunate circumstance, but not one that exists in isolation



i'm responding to multiple posts and trying to relate the ideas of interpersonal dynamics to other situations - in particular, i draw analogy to psychology because i've had to deal with those same questions quite often when i talk about something in the field

i'm sorry if you're upset that i haven't gotten to you yet, i have a finite amount of time



not everything has to fall into the "shitty/not shitty" dichotomy

Come on, Video game stories are like 20 years old, there is no generally agreed upon thesis. Astronomy and psychoanalysis have theories back by the majority of the professional accredited community after hundreds of years.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.

Dont use twitter then. The rules of engagement people are making up about twitter are hilarious. The platform is designed so people can engage you. If you don't want to be engaged make a private account. That's all there is to it.
 

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,411
This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.

If you want to set these parameters for how people should/shouldn't interact on Twitter, then Twitter is absolutely not the right platform to be using. Especially for an account that was not set to private.
 

Pazmatic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
96
Wanting people to see it and wanting people with zero experience to tell her she's wrong about the thing she does professionally are two very different things.
Then why not write it in a blog or wordpress? Something without the capability to comment. Her profile and her tweets are open to the public to respond. And again he never said she was wrong. Disagreeing with someones opinion does not equate to saying their opinion is wrong.
 

oni-link

tag reference no one gets
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,015
UK
This is absurdly overblown. This is easy.

You're welcome to comment all you want when you're not putting it in the face of any individual person.

Write an essay, write a blog, write a bunch of tweets (without @ing the person involved), write forum posts (even on the official forum, assuming the forum asks for feedback which it most certainly will), write in a Discord chat, you've got a million options.

If someone actively solicits feedback, then you're even fine telling them directly.

Where this goes over the line is when someone has not requested feedback and you feel you need to deliver your criticism to them directly. It's not cool to tweet that shit at them, or find their personal email address and write them, or find their personal phone number and give them a call, or confront them on the street.

You want to talk about your critique, that's fine. If they want to find rando people's critique of their work, they can solicit it or seek that stuff out.

Hi, I know you didn't request feedback on this directly, so I'm sorry if this is inappropriate, but does it say all this on Twitters terms of service, or is this some arbitrary unenforceable rule you have made up as a way to defend someone who is clearly in the wrong?
 
Oct 25, 2017
9,006
Canada
Oh look, this shit again. And the usual suspects twisting themselves in knots trying to shift the blame onto the streamer instead of the rude asshole who's actions got herself fired.
Probably because it conveniently fits their narrative and further allows the usual suspects around here to feed their compulsive need to bitch about and "fight" for something.

Curse those usual suspects!
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,705
If your point is that you don't understand that an employer-employee relationship and that between two people playing a game are different then yes, that's clear.

If your point is that you don't understand that the existence of other disrespectful interactions between people does not make this one acceptable then yes, that's also clear.

Price being targeted by gamergate does not somehow make her behavior here laudable or acceptable even though many people seem to think it does.

of course i am aware that you can't be rude to customers, just as you understand that no one is going to be rude "in solidarity with her".

my point is that the movement that so prominently signalled boosted her behavior as unacceptable is exhibiting an extremely isolated demand for rigor and should be held to their new standard.

i get the notion of the "toxoplasma of rage" effect causing controversial stories to receive more attention, but it is wild to see this story in the context of the wider environment of the video gaming community and industry.

it is made even more hilarious that gamergaters who are so viciously against "political correctness" are suddenly using arguments from "civility" just because a dev was rude online.

asymmetric demands for "civility" should be pointed out.
 

BDS

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,845
Probably because it conveniently fits their narrative and further allows the usual suspects around here to feed their compulsive need to bitch about and "fight" for something.

Why don't you guys tell us who these "usual suspects" are? Women? Feminists? Liberals? "SJWs"? Why don't you say what you actually mean?

Maybe I should start barking again, I know you guys liked that.
 

GalvoAg

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,385
Dallas
The actual exchange between the two parties has gotten way too much attention here. Everything that is bad about this incident firmly rests on Arenanet's shoulders. They caved to GG and set a bad precedent where we have GG'ers out there literally thinking they can get anyone they want fired now.
They didn't cave to GG, they fired an employee for badmouthing a customer in public while their name was attached to it. Isn't the first time and wont be the last, actions have consequences and Price clearly didn't acknowledge them when she hit submit.
 

Deleted member 3853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
801
Agreed. The toxic element was all the GG'ers and shit latching onto this and also Arenanet folding like a goddamn house of cards so quickly to appeal to the worst of their fan base.

The actual exchange between the two parties has gotten way too much attention here. Everything that is bad about this incident firmly rests on Arenanet's shoulders. They caved to GG and set a bad precedent where we have GG'ers out there literally thinking they can get anyone they want fired now.

I think it's more likely they didn't want to be associated with someone who is so shamelessly toxic on social media.
 

Deleted member 13645

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,052
Disagreeing with someones opinion does not equate to saying their opinion is wrong.

Yeah, this is a pretty important distinction to me. When I tell my boss at work "I disagree" I am absolutely not telling him "you're wrong." If I said the latter I don't think he would take kindly to that considering he has 20 years more experience than me. Saying "I disagree" is attempting to prompt a discussion on the topic. There's been quite a few posts in this thread claiming he was telling her how to do her job or telling her she's doing it poorly. I think that's a pretty bad representation of the interaction. He disagreed with her about a point she made on characterization of the player character in MMOs. He thought it (branching dialog) would solve issues she brought up in her post -- but at no point did he claim that her work was bad or that she was wrong. I completely understand how and why she would get upset, but him disagreeing with her based on a naive or under-informed perspective is not the same as him telling her she's wrong.