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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Hollow Knight has the crystal dash and that's about it. Super Metroid's ability set isn't groundbreaking by any measure (certainly not in the wake of Axiom Verge) but I enjoy it a lot more. Stuff like the Speed Booster/shinespark, Grapple Beam and Space Jump are at least a tiny bit more exciting than the normal 2D platformer toolset + cardinal direction shinespark.

Totally disagree about SM feeling mundane on replays. It's progression pacing is insane and unmatched imo, with the game machine gunning cool shit into your face for nearly its entire runtime. And the wall jump is one of gaming's greatest hidden mechanics, up there in the pantheon with dodge offset and Retro's DKCR roll jump where you don't need to do it in 99% of cases but mastering it completely re-contextualizes how the game is approached.
I fucking hate walljump in Super Metroid, I hated it in 94 and I still hate it now considering how cumbersome it is to use, it's a good thing the game nearly never requires it.
NSMBW and N+ do walljumps the right way and if we mean exploration platformer then HK does it right.

My issue with powerups in SM is that they're either one note like the grapple beam, pace killers like the scanner or shit we saw in the previous 2 games and they still managed to not include the best powerup of Metroid II too.

HK is better at it for me because it doesn't gate its progression as evidently as even SM does.
Like the usual "enter a room with a very obvious way you can't enter and a very visible object to pass that somehow require a powerup you don't have", there's little to no door like the colored thing in SM too.

The exploration part is also masterfully done in HK even at the concept level, the fact that you have to earn the map instead of being given the map by default makes for great exploration. Better yet, by not giving less information to the player on where he is, you force the player to actually commit to knowing the map and its context into the game.
In SM, if you want to go to a specific place you can pinpoint in the map, you don't need to know your way through the maze as a quick glance to the map and generally following the minimap will take you anywhere (same in Axiom verge btw).
HK is more raw, if you can afford it you can have a pin with your position on the map otherwise you need to know the context of the map relating to the ingame world and manage from there.
As far as exploration goes, it's the difference between a GPS and an oldtimey map.

Guess it depends on what you want out of the game in the end, I think explained why my preference goes the way it does.
 

JohnPaulv2.0

Member
Dec 3, 2017
571
Not in the public eye, but perhaps it should.

We love the classics. But judging every new entry to a genre by its similarity to the genre's exemplars will inevitably be unfavorable to every game except for the exemplar. But we loved the classics because they were, by some combination of qualities, judged to be great at a time when we were unfettered by expectations.

Team sizes for indie titles these days are often equivilent to those that produced our favourites from the 16bit era. The creative freedom originally afforded by lack of industry precedents is, these days, allowed by entrepreneurial endeavours or granted by publishers who are happy to take small risks for potentially large gains.

The difference for today's developers is that they have lifetime of game design to draw from; both the successes and the mistakes. In my opinion, Hollow Knight is a better game than SotN or Super Metroid for this reason but only because it builds on their foundation. Personal taste notwithstanding, where you rank it relative to these games depends on whether you value objective quality or impact.
 

B. Spaceman

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,296
Spain
I just don't get why it is a superior game. It's bigger and longer, but that's it.
 

Phendrift

Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,288
I haven't played too much of Hollow Knight but I am loving it so far.

However, I got what seems to be a key and not an actual gameplay upgrade when I beat the first boss which Is kind of disappointing. A big part of Metroid games for me is that you're always expanding Samus' arsenal and getting those optional expansions. If HK doesn't do that, no chance it beats SM for me.
 

HanSoloCup

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,638
Richmond, VA
No, an indie game almost no one has heard of outside of core gaming circles has not dethroned two of the most well known classics of the medium.

This. I asked the 6 people in my office that I know play games, and only 1 of them had even heard of it. He hadn't played it. All of them knew SotN and Super Metroid, and only 1 hadn't played them. It's a small sample size, sure, but the point is: I don't think you can say a game has dethroned another in the "public eye" when the majority of the public has never heard of it, much less played it. Unless your definition of the public eye is online gaming forums.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
I haven't played too much of Hollow Knight but I am loving it so far.

However, I got what seems to be a key and not an actual gameplay upgrade when I beat the first boss which Is kind of disappointing. A big part of Metroid games for me is that you're always expanding Samus' arsenal and getting those optional expansions. If HK doesn't do that, no chance it beats SM for me.

The first main boss gets you a very cool upgrade, just not literally on the same screen. It opens up the next room in which you get that upgrade.

In general I think every main boss gets you an upgrade and almost every optional boss does too, though not all of them happen in that boss room.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,307
I don't know if I'd even feel comfortable comparing HK directly to Super Metroid and SotN. As a Metroidvania, Hollow Knight is kinda light on both halves of that title, filling the void with a Soulsborne vibe instead. Super Metroid is more "Metroid" with its more novel powerups and its faster pace of acquiring them, and SotN is more "Vania" with its RPG progression. To me, Hollow Knight feels way more like a 2D Soulsborne with a dash of Metroidvania instead of a full on Metroidvania that begs a comparison to the innovators of the genre.
I really disagree. The only aspect of Souls games you can find in HK is the lost-geo-retrieval mechanic, which is similar to the bloodstain mechanic. And I suppose the way NPCs and lore are presented. But that's it.

Gameplay wise it's pure Metroidvania. Non-linear progression gated by traversal abilities (Metroid) with intense melee combat and RPG-lite elements (Igavanias) is what the game is all about.

Hollow Knight has the crystal dash and that's about it.
Eh? For gating progression, HK has the following:
- Mantis Claw (wall climbing)
- Mothwing Cloak (short air dash)
- Crystal Heart (long/super air dash)
- Monarch Wings (double jump)
- Isma's Tear (traverse acid)
- Shade Cloak (traverse abyss gates)

Plus things like the Dreamgate (set up a teleporter to warp to instantly) and of course combat upgrades like spells (and their respective boosted versions), Nail Arts and charms. It also has the equivalent of energy tanks/HP up and missile packs/Heart Up, etc. (Mask Shards, Soul Vessels).

The game has roughly equal doses of exploration, platforming challenges, and combat challenges in its mix; it doesn't have much in terms of character customization or RPG mechanics, which would make it a pure Metroid-like more than an action-RPG like Souls games.

I just don't get why it is a superior game. It's bigger and longer, but that's it.
Better controls, and much, much better combat and boss encounters.
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,244
New York City
I just don't get why it is a superior game. It's bigger and longer, but that's it.

I think people discount this. It being longer is a pretty big deal. Before people used to think a long Metroidvania couldn't be done. Hollow Knight has shown in not only can be done but maybe thats the way it should be from now on. I also think that the games being longer open them up for more experimentation with combining different aspects form other games. I think the Dark Souls aspects of Hollow Knight work better because its longer. I feel like there could be mroe in depth RPG mechanics in a game of this genre if it was the length of a RPG.

I think its important to break this genre out of the usual 10-15 hour routine its been in. And some credit has to go to Hollow Knight if thats what happens.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,748
I could never get into SoTN so I shouldn't really judge it in that regard. Super Metroid on the other hand I only beat 5 or so years ago and it's my go to recommendation whenever I want to introduce somebody to videogames. It does a wonderful job of having a minimal story, great atmosphere, a sense of progression and exploration. By comparison, I would never recommend somebody who hasn't played videogames start out with Hollow Knight. Wonderful game that should be held in high regard as a great within the genre and as a videogame in general, but not a Super Metroid. Super Metroid I feel simply does a better job of easing a new player into its world.
 

Kevin Shields

Member
Oct 27, 2017
677
I try to play all the "acclaimed" metroidvanias but so far Hollow Knight hasnt struck me as a particularly brilliant one. The problem may be it starts really slow and Im so used to getting upgrades quicker. I think Ori has been my favorite in recent years but I'll give this little knight some more time...
 

Xtortion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,637
United States
The game has roughly equal doses of exploration, platforming challenges, and combat challenges in its mix; it doesn't have much in terms of character customization or RPG mechanics, which would make it a pure Metroid-like more than an action-RPG like Souls games.

That's really the thing for me. If we look at Hollow Knight as something closest to Metroid, it's ability progression really leaves a lot to be desired when compared to those games. There are relatively few abilities and they're generally spaced pretty far apart. Actual traversal fell flat for me several times in the game because I just wasn't getting anything new to play with (and the game is looooong).

By the Souls comparison I mean a challenging, combat-driven delve into the unknown - the general feel of those games, which HK absolutely nails. Other Metroidvanias often kinda skim over combat, with most enemies being relegated to glorified obstacles to jump over or effortlessly blast away. Like Souls, many of HK's enemies are punishing and require attention. And I really enjoyed the combat side of HK the most - even enough to mostly make up for a progression loop that let me down a bit. I just don't think its use of traditional Metroidvania elements is its strongest suit. Games like Super Metroid, Zero Mission, Axiom Verge, and Shadow Complex all have more effective ability progression for me, and that concept of ability progression and the pacing with which it's executed is what I find most unique and intriguing about the genre.
 

Feral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,006
Your Mom
fun fact, the devs say they had not played any Souls games and they didn't have any influence on them when they were designing HK

yet everyone who plays it immediately thinks "wait, is this 2d Souls with bugs?"
 

HorseFD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,023
Melbourne
fun fact, the devs say they had not played any Souls games and they didn't have any influence on them when they were designing HK

yet everyone who plays it immediately thinks "wait, is this 2d Souls with bugs?"

I find it hard to believe they weren't aware of the concept of collecting your souls after you die, and then if you die again before collecting them they're lost.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
fun fact, the devs say they had not played any Souls games and they didn't have any influence on them when they were designing HK

yet everyone who plays it immediately thinks "wait, is this 2d Souls with bugs?"
This is so hard to believe. Not only is the base Geo mechanic the same as the Soul mechanic, the NPC dialogue and general atmosphere is super similar. I know FROM didn't invent dark, moody environments, but City of Tears is straight up a Souls level.
 

Feral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,006
Your Mom
bleh, I'm having trouble finding the source right now with the search function on mobile, if someone knows what I'm talking about can you post it? It was from an interview
 

Deleted member 419

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,009
The word "dethroned" seems to be intrinsically linked with this game when it comes to thread titles on this forum, haha!

In terms of individual players, I think many of the people who've played Hollow Knight feel that it has, indeed, surpassed those earlier classics as a matter of overall quality.

However I strongly suspect that in terms of broader cultural mindshare, Super Metroid and SotN will continue to be the flagship games in this genre. There is a point where a classic becomes untouchable on a mass culture level, and I think both SM and SotN reached that point long ago.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
This is so hard to believe. Not only is the base Geo mechanic the same as the Soul mechanic, the NPC dialogue and general atmosphere is super similar. I know FROM didn't invent dark, moody environments, but City of Tears is straight up a Souls level.

Atmospherics can frequently look similar.

As for the die and kill your ghost mechanic this type of risk and reward existed already in some roguelikes and mmos with corpse runs. The only twist Souls invented was fighting yourself to get your loot back.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I'm not sure if there is much of a "public eye" for Metroidvanias, the genre is kind of niche. Fans of the genre seem to have appreciation for any and every good/great new addition to the genre without downplaying what has come before. Super Metroid is awesome and still plays really well. Hollow Knight is awesome and does its own thing.
 

ElNino

Member
Nov 6, 2017
3,705
This. I asked the 6 people in my office that I know play games, and only 1 of them had even heard of it. He hadn't played it. All of them knew SotN and Super Metroid, and only 1 hadn't played them. It's a small sample size, sure, but the point is: I don't think you can say a game has dethroned another in the "public eye" when the majority of the public has never heard of it, much less played it. Unless your definition of the public eye is online gaming forums.
Even in gaming forums it isn't as well known (at least it wasn't to me). I'm on this site (and others) essentially every day and I had never heard of it until only a few weeks ago. I've bought it on the Switch now, but I've hardly played it yet.
 

We_care_a_lot

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,157
Summerside PEI
I'm always amazed when people try to put SOTN on the same tier of awesome as super metroid. I love SOTN but it's doesn't have the same unassailable quality as super metroid, which is very nearly the closest thing there has ever been to perfect game
 

Opa-Pa

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,810
fun fact, the devs say they had not played any Souls games and they didn't have any influence on them when they were designing HK

yet everyone who plays it immediately thinks "wait, is this 2d Souls with bugs?"
Wow this is legitimately surprising, I think people oversell their similarities, but the game's approach to lore, NPCs, among other things definitely felt inspired by Miyazaki's games. I guess the shortcuts felt very Souls-like too.

Weird tho, I found a pretty blatant Dark Souls joke in some NPC dialogue, maybe it was added in one of the expansions and by the time they had played some of them?
 

paulc

Alt account.
Member
Dec 14, 2017
97
It's a great game and probably better than both if I'm being honest, but Metroid and Castlevania are literally the icons that created the "Metroidvania" genre, so I think the answer is no.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,963
When I read dethroned I'm simply interpreting that as 'better game' - which it easily is.

SotN and/or SM might have easily been more influential, more impressive at their respective time of release and so forth. How couldn't they be when Hollow Knight is roughly one a half years old.
 

Deleted member 19767

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,098
When I read dethroned I'm simply interpreting that as 'better game' - which it easily is.

SotN and/or SM might have easily been more influential, more impressive at their respective time of release and so forth. How couldn't they be when Hollow Knight is roughly one a half years old.

I disagree that the game is 'easily better'. It's certainly excellent in many areas and really nails combat and movement. But I don't think the layout and overall level design was nearly as good as many other games in the genre. I also think the art and music, while very good - are as strong as SOTN.
 

Opoth

Member
Dec 24, 2017
176
It's a great game but the difficulty curve is going to stop it from overtaking either of those. The two that you mentioned also have a high dosage of nostalgia attached to them.
 

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
729
I tried so damn hard to get into this game. I wanted to love it. Heard so much good from a vocal fanbase.

Didn't click. Don't exactly know why, it's hard to articulate.

Dezzy said:
I found Hollow Knight very drab and gave up in just under 3 hours. People keep praising it though and it's been updated with multiple expansions since then, maybe I should give it another shot.

I'll take my crack at this.

A lot of people I see spend a LOT of time wandering the Crossroads (Area 1) in circles endlessly not progressing. That area is easily linked with the Fungal Wastes (Area 2) and Fog Canyon (Area 3.) This trifecta is also endlessly wandered through BUT Greenpath (Area 4) is not so easily accessed. And Greenpath is the part where I finally started to love the game. This is exacerbated by several issues that cause quite a few players to call it drab and frustrating.

1) The map. In HK you are forced to mentally map each area even after buying a map. This is difficult for many learn or even realize they have to learn. It causes people to miss the fast travel (which is rather tucked away) and makes dying more frustrating because you didn't spend your geo and you can't find your shade. Area 3 doesn't even let you buy a map.

2) The environment. While the map is a GOOD mechanic, they're forced to learn it in an area trifecta that is drab and looks the same. Area 4 is lush with a gorgeous soundtrack but is delayed twice as long it should be if you struggle with the map and/or difficult bosses/enemies. It gives the impression that HK is just drab caverns.

3) Pogo bouncing. This is really the only mechanic that isn't explicitly spelled out for you in text but it comes at the beginning of the game. Not knowing to bounce on the mushrooms in Area 2 causes more frustrated wandering.
 
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Feral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,006
Your Mom
I'll take my crack at this.

A lot of people I see spend a LOT of time wandering the Crossroads (Area 1) in circles endlessly not progressing. That area is easily linked with the Fungal Wastes (Area 2) and Fog Canyon (Area 3.) This trifecta is also endlessly wandered through BUT Greenpath (Area 4) is not so easily accessed. And Greenpath is the part where I finally started to love the game. This is exacerbated by several issues that cause quite a few players to call it drab and frustrating.
don't you need to go to Greenpath first to get access to Fungal Wastes and Fog Canyon? It's been a while since I played it. Greenpath should be the second area you go to. The path leading away from the first boss fight practically spits you out in front of the door to Greenpath, and you pick up the ability required to get there along the way
 

Mistouze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,430
I don't know about "dethroned" but I feel like Hollow Knight is up there with those two games. Time will tell if its remembered as a classic along with Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night.
 

Naphu

Member
Apr 6, 2018
729
don't you need to go to Greenpath first to get access to Fungal Wastes and Fog Canyon? It's been a while since I played it. Greenpath should be the second area you go to. The path leading away from the first boss fight practically spits you out in front of the door to Greenpath, and you pick up the ability required to get there along the way

I suppose could have got that part wrong since I'm going off of memory. If I'm wrong about the area order it definitely makes my point weaker but isolate that point to wandering around the Crossroads; which as mentioned is endless meandering in circles for many new playthroughs I see.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
I don't know about "dethroned" but I feel like Hollow Knight is up there with those two games. Time will tell if its remembered as a classic along with Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night.

That's impossible since HK is a tribute to these games, not a reinvention of the genre.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
I suppose could have got that part wrong since I'm going off of memory. If I'm wrong about the area order it definitely makes my point weaker but isolate that point to wandering around the Crossroads; which as mentioned is endless meandering in circles for many new playthroughs I see.

It's really weird to see people posting about playing 6-8 hours before getting to the city. It only took me 2-3 hours to get to that point on my first playthrough. I can imagine that must be exhausting, but something is going wrong if they're being that slow. Maybe they're not filling in the map? I honestly don't know.
 

jokingbird

Member
Oct 25, 2017
687
Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night have better pacing over Hollow Knight. I finished both but could not stomach the late game portions of HK. I don't think it belongs in the same tier as either of those games.
 

Mistouze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,430
That's impossible since HK is a tribute to these games, not a reinvention of the genre.
Well couldn't you make the same argument about SotN in regards to Super Metroid?

I totally get that HK might not bring enough "new" stuff to the genre though but it being damn good feels enough to me for the moment.
 

waru

Member
Oct 30, 2017
27
Hollow Knight is really too hard to win the heart of the traditionnal gamers. Personally I'm stuck, I have only boss fight to progress and it's to hard.
 

zoukka

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
2,361
Well couldn't you make the same argument about SotN in regards to Super Metroid?

I totally get that HK might not bring enough "new" stuff to the genre though but it being damn good feels enough to me for the moment.

I think SotN did a lot to innovate the genre. And I agree that HK might be seen as the latest great IP in the genre and that is a big achievement. As time passes however the less radical games in the genre tend to get obscured. In HK's favour, the audiovisual design is so strong that it might actually make it a lot more relevant than many other recent Metroidvanias.

Hollow Knight is really too hard to win the heart of the traditionnal gamers. Personally I'm stuck, I have only boss fight to progress and it's to hard.

It's harder than many modern metroidvanias, but compared to Super Metroid and SotN, it's not hard at all :b
 

Feral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,006
Your Mom
I suppose could have got that part wrong since I'm going off of memory. If I'm wrong about the area order it definitely makes my point weaker but isolate that point to wandering around the Crossroads; which as mentioned is endless meandering in circles for many new playthroughs I see.
hm I checked and it looks like you have to go through Greenpath and a short trip to Fog Canyon to get to Fungal Wastes early in the game

I think that most of those people who dropped the game after 3 or so hours were still stuck in Crossroads, which I agree is not a good showcase for the game, especially since you lack all the essential movement abilities at the start. The layout of the place isn't too confusing, but not nearly as straight-foward as Crateria to Brinstar I guess. People seem to have trouble finding the first boss, and I read that some people missed picking up the projectile spell too afterwards
 

Panic Freak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,583
This is absurd claim.

Powerup gating is a staple of videogames.

You don't have to be fan of Hollowknight to know why this unlocking of new gear can be fun.


Just say you were unhappy with the progression system instead of attacking others for one of the most basic principles of videogame design.

I've never played the game. The person I was replying to suggested that a person that played the game and dropped it shouldn't come into threads like this one and offer their opinion on the game.
 

Deleted member 6056

Oct 25, 2017
7,240
I'd argue Axiom Verge over Hollow Knight. It at least has the same aesthetic as metroid and isn't just in the genre but seems directly inspired by Metroid in much of its aesthetic and atmosphere. Either way though no, nothing has dethroned Metroid in the public eye (even though I do feel Axiom Verge is better than any of the 2d Metroid titles.)
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Wow this is legitimately surprising, I think people oversell their similarities, but the game's approach to lore, NPCs, among other things definitely felt inspired by Miyazaki's games. I guess the shortcuts felt very Souls-like too.

Weird tho, I found a pretty blatant Dark Souls joke in some NPC dialogue, maybe it was added in one of the expansions and by the time they had played some of them?

Which joke was that?

Anyway I do remember hearing that same thing, that this game was not inspired at all by Souls games. It was either in an interview or Reddit AMA or something, and they had said (I believe) they were mainly inspired by Metroid/Super Metroid and Zelda 1/2. The main "Souls" gimmick (dropping your geo at your body) was something I first recall from Diablo 2, though I'm sure it was in other games before that too.

You're right though that the way the lore is told and the way the NPC's stories unfold is pretty damn similar to Souls games. It could just stem from a similar "old school" design ethos, where story exposition is intended to be as minimal as possible so that's a way to really pack in as much lore and story into as little gameplay interruptions as possible.

The overall plot too is quite similar to Dark Souls too, at least in terms of the bad ending. Once you start working towards the good ending it diverges pretty heavily.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
It's harder than many modern metroidvanias, but compared to Super Metroid and SotN, it's not hard at all :b
Is this a joke post? SM and SotN are some of the easiest "classic" games. The two (along with a handful of others) really kicked off the era where games were allowed to be easy instead of always being NES hard to get your money's worth. Hollow Knight is substantially harder than either.
 
Dec 6, 2017
10,986
US
Is this a joke post? SM and SotN are some of the easiest "classic" games. The two (along with a handful of others) really kicked off the era where games were allowed to be easy instead of always being NES hard to get your money's worth. Hollow Knight is substantially harder than either.

100%. I don't think Hollow Knight's difficulty is a positive but it's objectively clearly way fucking harder than either Super Metroid or SotN.