The fact your work on a company, dosn't mean the account you use privately in your own free time is owned by a company to a point you can't even have mild angry reactions and condescending, patronizing "admirers" without being fired.
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The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
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The fact your work on a company, dosn't mean the account you use privately in your own free time is owned by a company to a point you can't even have mild angry reactions and condescending, patronizing "admirers" without being fired.
I think some people are aware of this, they just don't care and they would rather have women in games punished above all else. It's not about ethics or acting proper on social media, it's simply about power over women in Games.
Lots of bad faith actors in here that I think you could look up in their activity in threads related to women and see a pattern of bad faith arguing that somehow is acceptable in this community.
"he could have done a lot more to defuse the situation"
What? All he did was @ a dev he admired politely with feedback a couple times and she just so happen to blow him as the posterboy of a misogynistic, mansplaining gamer.
How could you defuse a situation you never even anticipated could happen?
Yeah, it's gone very downhill unfortunately. I want to respond to someone else but RL has kept me from doing so.
At this point, I wouldn't consider it a bad thing if the thread got closed. :(
So can I say that I feel she shouldn't have lashed out the way she did at that person but she also shouldn't have been fired because of it?
Unless she has a history of past infractions there were better routes they could have taken in this case.
Unless she has a history of past infractions there were better routes they could have taken in this case.
i don't believe in 'not speaking ill of the dead' for people who had as profoundly negative, actively harmful even, an impact as he had. fucking sorry, i guess.
I can't fucking tell anymore.
So lets assume he was just being ignorant and had no idea he was being toxic. Is insulting him really the best way to win over people? Shit like this doesn't help feminism. There's plenty of times to get mad and attack idiots and Nice Guys. This is not one of those times. All it does is give incels or whothefuckever ammo.
It is if you say you work for them on your account.
Do you have a shred of evidence to back up your insistence of malicious intent in his comments? Because damn, this takes reaching to a whole 'nother level.
I know this has been posted before, but here's the actual clip of Deroir's praising Price:
Maybe I try too hard to see the good in people, but I don't know how you can possibly claim he's being insincere.
Tell the community he is apparently such a respected member of to shut up, back off and stop the harassment. Then he could have approached both ArenaNet and Price via, say, email to privately work things out
I missed where they were labeled enemies of the community, can I get a link?
What's there to investigate? It's all there in the tweets.
He made a simple comment about an approach he thought could work and she immediately got on the defensive talking about "this is what it's like being a female in the game industry". Because apparently only females deal with simple critiques/opinions about their work.
It's ridiculous. It made her look bad and the company bad as a result. It's a pretty open and shut case.
The meltdown she had after only proved them more right for cutting ties.
This ordeal sets a really awful precedent (or bolsters an existing one), for sure.
This thread (that seems to have influenced a lot of the thought here) just seems kind of reductive of Deroir's comments. I think his input was pretty bad. And I don't think he looks good in the aftermath; his later are tweets are really melodramatic. But I'm just not seeing how initially responding to Price as he did is totally out of line.
The fact that women have to watch what they say and how they act because it couldn't given incels or whothefuckever ammo is precisely the problem
So I can't post info about my work, because I lose the ownership of the rest of my life that goes into that personal account? What a ludcirous argument.
If she didn't posted she worked there, people would have find out and she would have been fired anyway. That's dumb.
So any feedback from amateurs to professionals should be considered condescending?
Writing and game development is in no way a "science" and is far away from being perfected since its still a medium in its infancy. The person being condescending was price as a professional towards a fan/amateur
As a developer and artist I receive feedback on a daily basis and it is one of the cornerstones of my profession that makes sure it drives me to improve myself every step of the way. This goes with feedback from fellow professionals or the fans of the games we make. Everybody has valid input and the feeling of collaboration between professional and amateurs/fans is what makes game development such an amazing profession.
In this case, what you could hope as an interesting opening to a great discussion on writing on mmorpg's (especially after an AMA) which could have inspired other writers in the field to take part in and might have resulted in some very interesting insights, instead turned sour because apparently feedback or any form of open discussion was not warranted. This is the most disturbing thing for me, seeing a professional acting this way towards an amateur and fan of her work who has his own two cents to share on a public forum like twitter. Its baffling and honestly unprofessional behavior.
Your definition of "helping feminism" is literally putting a leash on what women are allowed to say. Can't you see how backwards your mindset is on this? Feminism is not walking on eggshells so that misogynists leave you alone.
Who said she was trying to win him over?
Is she like, the board for which feminism will be judged? What does this have to do with anything?
Sexists and misogynists don't need ammo taken away from them. They are going to hold these opinions regardless. Framing shit how you are right now is basically saying "all will suffer at the hands of assholes anytime you lose your cool about anything"
What kind of shit is that?
Deroir was also being as polite as he could. He was very respectful and even praised Price in one of his past streams. It is really difficult to really defend Price's behavior in response to his feedback. She could've just said "I disagree with your suggestions, but thanks". But no, it had to escalate into something crazy and here we are.
No. And I don't need to be to realize she was being obnoxious, despite what a certain part of this forum will tell me.
People constantly point out things in games they think could be done better. Shit, look at any thread here about writing in games, a BioWare thread on relationships in their games would be a good starting point. To suggest that the only reason that happened to her was because she's a female is fucking hilarious.
That's your take on it but she didn't wanted feedback. Nor that half-assed one about "branching dialogues". Like I'm sure she never thought about it....
Just don't be surprised if your behavior on Social Media affects your real life, because it is real life. What do you think is going on when people out racists or nazis who say shit on social media and then get fired? Should that noth appen either?
No, I'm making the point that when someone on our side is acting foolish, we should be willing to call them out, instead of bending over backwards to defend them. Imagine if that troll who got banned WAS the real deal and a feminist. Do you think that kind of attitude would be doing any favors?
Okay so you have no idea what female game devs have to deal with daily and you don't care.
If you had been working at a job for a decade and you discuss difficulties about an aspect of your job and someone with no experience in your field says "hey have you tried this :)" it's 100% condscending
This doesn't mean *all* feedback is condesceding, it's means *this* feedback was condescending
Whats it got to do with gender? Serious its standard practice to not act out or make your company look bad via proxy for anyone. I guarentee you her work contract had specifcs in regards to social media. She has caused issues before and she has caused them again now and it has nothing to do with the fact that she is a woman, the harrassment afterwards? Absolutely. But what she did would put most people on warning she was already on that part so the logical next step is to cut ties.
This is standard practice especially in any industry that has anykind of online focused interaction.
Please explain to me why the other guy was fired. What did he do to warrant it? He stuck up for his co-worker. Did he insult anyone? Did he attack anyone? He defended a co-worker. Please explain to me how that warrants firing with zero warning?
This all happened quickly - after an internet mob appeared and put pressure on the company. The called for the heads of both people and the company folded because they're cowards.
I'm not puting a leash on her, but if someone is acting foolish for a cause I believe in, I think its totally within my right to disagree with them.
I'm not saying "Be civil at all times" but when someone is acting foolishly, we shouldn't be bending backwards to defend them just because they're on our side. She was rude and abrasive to someone who respected her, and in the end the only people who come out with a victory out of it are the GG crowd.
Where do you live?
I ask this because yes, in the US and Canada you can be fired from your work without cause as long as it's not on the basis of gender, ethnicity, race, religion etc. This is the reality you face when you work in these countries, calling it ludicrous is fine but shit is how it is so I suggest people don't bury their head in the sand about it.
I do not post where I work on social media because I do not want myself associated with work in my personal life. This doesn't mean they can't fire me for some shit that happens outside of work but the less private info is floating around the more you cover your ass.
What female devs deal with daily has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.
She wasn't dealing with anything extraordinary here. It was a simple comment.
He shouldn't have been fired, imo. Unless there was something else that progressed beyond what's been reported so far.
Absolutely. Arenanet asked Deroir next morning to "please remain quiet" while they resolved the issue and he complied. People that are entertaining the idea he planned this or something are clearly not a member of the community and are just immediately assuming he did something wrong because it lets them latch onto the narrative of "another mansplaining pig".
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She literally had a hate mob out for her since she first got the job my dude.
You may be right, but I have hard time believing that ArenaNet fired these 2 devs only because of an internet mob. To fire someone that quickly, especially a game writer that may have had ongoing projects would pose a risk to the business and delay any new content they had planned. I don't know the full story. If this was indeed the first offense and the firing was done to please a twitter mob then they are idiots.
Also, I don't think they would've been fired if Jessica would've cooled off and tweeted an apology for overreacting to someone on Twitter. From her statement after she was let go, she said she did nothing wrong...which is part of the problem IMO.
And I don't think the statement by ArenaNet was an attempt to vilify their employees. It was a public incident so it only made sense that a statement would be made after they were released. People would've known why they were gone even if nothing was said publicly by ArenaNet on the matter.
it's fucked up how many people seem to think that this status quo is okay and that ArenaNet has done no wrong because of this, though
Unfortunately, we can't know why Fries was fired. I think it's safe to assume that one reason was because he was involved -- but there's no way to know whether or not that was the only reason. He, unlike Price, has decided to take the professional (and career-triage) route of not talking about it.
Since you're so concerned with what is good for feminism, what is firing a prominent female dev and throwing her to a hatemob doing to help the cause? Who are all these people you imagine Price was attempting to 'win over' until she uttered the sinful word asshat - is it the same men brigading her and attempting to get other women devs fired?
That's really unfortunate.
What's that have to do with this specific comment and her ridiculous response?
Nothing.
An MMO lives or dies by its community and Price decided to attack a prominent member of that community. Why wouldn't ArenaNet take action against that? Sure, they could've asked her to apologize, but looking at her tweets, do you really think she would?
Her reply also wasn't extraordinarily out of line. It's overblown because of gamer entitlement and "how could you SAY that to such a DISTINGUISHED member of the community?"
"The group of misogynists attempting to get this woman fired for years has absolutely nothing to do with this woman getting fired for being rude to one man."
Okay.
Yeah. The case is pretty simple, we are in this mess now because we had to paint a "narrative" around it. Not sure it's helping.
We are at the point where basic politeness is fascist/toxic/misogynistic now ?
That's insane.
We are at the point where basic politeness is fascist/toxic/misogynistic now ?
That's insane.
User warned: Downplaying harassment.
Hate to break it to you, but they really don't.
She was an asshole to a customer on a public forum and got canned as a result. Hopefully she learns from her mistakes.
Keep making up some conspiracy narrative to fit whatever the agenda is. I don't think we really need to strengthen the case that women have it shit in the industry, but this specific incident is not a case of that.
Telling someone how to do their job when you have no experience doing their job is condescending. How is this so hard?
Going to disagree here, because most fields you do need to watch what you say regardless. Be it engineering, marketing, nursing, etc. Even comedians and writers do need to watch it. If your name is linked to a company like that, it's to be expected and saying it's not is living in a bubble. This aspect isn't linked to her sex at all. You don't cuss out a customer.
Going to agree here, because sex is entirely linked to this harassment campaign specifically targeting women, dragging up their past, etc. The pressure ArenaNet was feeling is 100% GG and most likely resulted in her firing from it is 100% sex driven shit. She called a customer an asshole, unprofessional and it's something I wouldn't blame the company for cutting lose, but it's not something that doesn't happen dozens if not hundreds of times a day. The only reason it blew up is that she is a woman in a vocal position. The entire fact we are hearing about it now is solely due to it and the harassment. Otherwise it would have just been another fart in the wind like most people that get canned for cussing a customer. People want to drag her through the streets as an example of feminism gone wrong.