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ThisIsMyDogKyle

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
What's up with people acting like Hollow Knight just released and thus is in its "honeymoon phase" or "too fresh"? it literally released a year ago, I liked it more than Super Metroid then, I just played through it again on Switch and that simply affirmed that opinion.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
This is absurd claim.

Powerup gating is a staple of videogames.

You don't have to be fan of Hollowknight to know why this unlocking of new gear can be fun.


Just say you were unhappy with the progression system instead of attacking others for one of the most basic principles of videogame design.
It's funny because HK is probably the best in class for powerup gating, you're usually never stuck in 1 small area until you get the new powerup to progress that 1 gate and then you forget about the powerup ever again (I'm looking at you Ecclesia).
It's probably my favorite part of HK, that and the fact that the game absolutely doesn't rely on you looking at the map.
Playing this next to Metroid Samus Returns is kinda eye opening.
 

Molemitts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
583
Well to be fair SotN have the worst boss selection of all Exploration Castlevania out there and they're all bar 1 piss easy to beat.
Same for Super Metroid, it's a disturbingly easy game to beat outside of that 1 boss and enemy design is not exactly stellar in Metroid games except when Retro is doing them.

Yeah the bosses are definitely my least favourite thing about Super Metroid, and the combat in SotN is extremely simple. I think the other elements of both games, such as exploration, story and whatever Hollow Knight does just as well if not better. SotN has a better soundtrack, and maybe a more interesting setting but the inverted castle always kills that game for me.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
That's not how naming conventions work. We transitioned from calling fps games doom clones within 4 years.

Same happened for dota clones.

For names like rogue and metroidvania to endure is a sign that successors didn't really surpass them.


Hollowknight is the first game to surpass them in a meaningful way.

The idea that people still call Binding of Isaac a roguelike because it's not actually better than Rogue is laughable. In reality people name genres based on whatever happens to stick. There's no overarching rule for what causes it.
 

shiftplusone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,401
Hallow Knight is the flavor of the month indie game. Metroid and Castlevania are classics.

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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
Yeah the bosses are definitely my least favourite thing about Super Metroid, and the combat in SotN is extremely simple. I think the other elements of both games, such as exploration, story and whatever Hollow Knight does just as well if not better. SotN has a better soundtrack, and maybe a more interesting setting but the inverted castle always kills that game for me.
IDK, as a whole the soundtrack of all 3 games is stellar, SM is the weakest but that's just because of how limited the hardware can be at times.
I prefer HK but I feel like there's no real best answer.
SotN becomes a borefest with the inverted castle, all the good soundtracks are gone, the design is a not as interesting and the bosses are a bit meh.
If we're ignoring the 2nd half SotN is probably the best Castlevania out there by a long shot.

The fact that HK is the only one of the 3 with an actual postgame kinds of make it better even though that's kinda unfair to SM when postgame wasn't really a widespread thing (seriously out of the 3 SNES FF, only 1 had any postgame content at all).

That we're having this conversation at all is proof of how good HK is really.

People were hyping it up for an entire year. They were getting frustrated with us Switch holdouts. They turned out to be right!
I expected another Axiom Verge : a good game but nothing THAT spectacular.
Crows are avoiding me now.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
The idea that people still call Binding of Isaac a roguelike because it's not actually better than Rogue is laughable. In reality people name genres based on whatever happens to stick. There's no overarching rule for what causes it.
That is a fair outlook but a little off. There are definitely puritans who don't look to kindly to the genre bending that is required to move beyond that first great game.

Essentially some people refuse to even entertain games like Binding or FTL as proper successors and want everyone to remember the original as always the best.
 

Odeko

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Mar 22, 2018
15,180
West Blue
That's what I'm getting at. A common criticism that is overlooked by fans of the game could be a killer for others. That's doesn't mean that your experience as someone who has beaten 30/30 bosses and seen 10/10 areas is more valuable than theirs. And it certainly doesn't mean that they can't pass their judgement on the game. It's not like they are getting paid to play the game after all.
Someone who's only seen a small fraction of a game doesn't have the perspective necessary to criticize it. For example, someone who's only seen the first three areas of Hollow Knight will have spent most of their time in the tutorial area and forgotten crossroads, and will think 2/3 or 67% of the game has the same dark drab color-scheme. Someone who's played the whole thing will know that it's only those two areas that look similar, all the others are shockingly different and would never criticize 2/10 or 20% for being too samey.

That's why I'm not interested in what someone who's barely played the game has to say. "The Lord of the Rings movies are *so boring,* they spent the first 20 minutes just celebrating some guys birthday and then I turned it off."
 

Zapperino

Member
Oct 28, 2017
258
I like the game very much, and does metroidvania better than anything else I played in recent memory(I really want to play iconoclast tho).
That said, Bloodstained will probably sell in a week as much as Hollow knight did until now.
 

Bricktop

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,847
What a ridiculous question. A single game, that most gamers haven't played, is going to "dethrone" two beloved games from iconic series in the public eye? No, hell no. Everyone knows Metroid, every knows Castlevania. Hollow who? That is the response you would get from the average gamer, much less person.

You can make an argument that Hollow Knight is a better game, there is no argument for claiming it has surpassed either of those games in the public eye..
 

Animagne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
252
Trust me. If they kept pushing out more sequels with increasing sales it would cement its status as better than its ancestors.

Super Metroid came out in a smaller videogaming market on the dominant platform.

That type of advertising power and timing influences its reverence a lot. Hollowknight as a series simply has to have average generational sales better than Metroid franchise and it will achieve that status.

Not an easy feat in a more competitive environment but it is what it only needs to do.
It's not about creating long lasting franchises. Super metroid/SotN are genre defining games. Hollow Knight is an extremely polished game, not an innovative one, unless you'd try to claim that hard difficulty and death system from souls games is innovation.
 

ryechu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
880
I like the game very much, and does metroidvania better than anything else I played in recent memory(I really want to play iconoclast tho).
That said, Bloodstained will probably sell in a week as much as Hollow knight did until now.
The game sold 1.25+ million copies. I'll hold you accountable to that.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
It's not about creating long lasting franchises. Super metroid/SotN are genre defining games. Hollow Knight is an extremely polished game, not an innovative one, unless you'd try to claim that hard difficulty and death system from souls games is innovation.
I'm going to make 2 distinct points here.

There are few games that define a genre but it still is important for regular releases to increases visibility. Doom, half life and Call of duty 4 are important for what each did but their continued reverence is sustained by how much their ip holders give us a new reason to talk about these older games in context to the new one.

You bring up a point that I have taken for granted when it comes to Super Metroid (because with SOTN that game endures because it did a bunch of defining things inspite of the flaws). Hollowknight influencing future games is unlikely but that's not always a requirement to become a top enduring games though it 90% of the time is the case.
 
Dec 6, 2017
10,987
US
I like the game very much, and does metroidvania better than anything else I played in recent memory(I really want to play iconoclast tho).
That said, Bloodstained will probably sell in a week as much as Hollow knight did until now.

I really hope that game turns out alright just because I'm a fan of his Castlevania titles but goddamn does it look like a train wreck right now. Bad vibes all around.
 

SHAQ

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,214
Miami, Florida
What a ridiculous question. A single game, that most gamers haven't played, is going to "dethrone" two beloved games from iconic series in the public eye? No, hell no. Everyone knows Metroid, every knows Castlevania. Hollow who? That is the response you would get from the average gamer, much less person.

You can make an argument that Hollow Knight is a better game, there is no argument for claiming it has surpassed either of those games in the public eye..
It's a question you really only see on forums. HK is not being championed outside of here and GameFAQs.

Next up: Did Undertale surpass Chrono Trigger? I think so.
 

Kawaii

Member
Oct 28, 2017
170
I never paid attention to Hollow Knight, it seemed like your typical indie platformer game with gimmicky graphics.

But now that it's being compared to those two, it's become a must play.
 

BriGuy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,275
Oh damn, I gotta break it out for this, that's for sure. What happens with the areas only reachable with traversal enhancements like double jump etc.?
I can't remember if Richter has a double jump, but he does have a soaring uppercut move you can chain indefinitely to basically fly, kind of like Alucard's gravity jump. It's not as precise (or slow) as bat form, but it will get you where you need to go.
 

Thatguy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,207
Seattle WA
I never paid attention to Hollow Knight, it seemed like your typical indie platformer game with gimmicky graphics.

But now that it's being compared to those two, it's become a must play.
It's a well done indie metroidvania. All metroidvanias are compared to those two. The term comes from those two games. Personally I enjoyed Axiom Verge more, another well done indie metroidvania.
 

Animagne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
252
There are few games that define a genre but it still is important for regular releases to increases visibility. Doom, half life and Call of duty 4 are important for what each did but their continued reverence is sustained by how much their ip holders give us a new reason to talk about these older games in context to the new one.

This gets murky really fast. Visibility for who? I would argue that for core gamers samus returns did nothing to increase visibility of super metroid. Neither will metroid prime 4 (it will for metroid prime trilogy). OTOH healthy genre with lots of high quality titles, including hollow knight, does increase visibility for the GOAT of the genre. For casual audiences, none of those had any significant impact, but I bet snes mini did.

Wolfenstein and Doom are similar franchises for their genre. I would say that New Colossus did absolutely nothing for the original Wolfenstein games, especially when a lot of criticism went towards gameplay and story was the most praised part. 2016 Doom I would say definitely brought more visibility towards original, due to gameplay comparisons.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,315
Also 1 or 2 copy pasted enemies? SotN has around 100 different enemies. With a bunch that have their own unique quirks. Like killing the Owl Knights Owl, he'll cry over its death.
Um, a ton of enemies from SotN were recycled from Rondo of Blood, dude. It's a well-known criticism of the game. Hollow Knight has 150+ enemies (none of which are recycled from previous games of course).

Hallow Knight is the flavor of the month indie game.
It won #21 GOTY 2017 on ResetEra, close behind Mario + Rabbids, and ranked above Samus Returns and other high-budget games like The Evil Within 2, Hellblade, Destiny 2, For Honor, etc.

Not bad for an indie "flavour of the month" that was exclusively on PC at the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Narroo

Banned
Feb 27, 2018
1,819
Sigh, no.

Well, that's true, but that's what it's going for. Might as well complain that Super Metroid environments are also dark and damp, and bleak and alien.

Yes, the game does. While Hollow Knight is technically hand-drawn, have you never seen any games or television shows that are animated skillfully in flash? Flash can in fact do good animations. It's use still results in a distinctive style, but it can be done well enough to be used for television shows. Hollow Knight's characters look like very high quality flash animations.

And all because the developers were going for dark dingy caves, doesn't mean it isn't a valid criticism.
 

Boney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
349
Santiago
Trying to put SOTN on the same level as Super Metroid kinda speaks for itself on how ludicrous the original statement is.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,103
NL
Hyperbole Knight. As others have said, its good even great sometimes but itll never take SM and SOTN's shine. Those games are the king and queen of their respective genre.
 

ryechu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
880
It's not a slight to HK, it's just that I think that the legacy that bloodstained brings with it will win in the end. Heck I'm planning to buy it basically blind, unless the press is overwhelmingly negative.
It would be amazing if any Metroidvania sells 1.25 million copies in a week, so I'm just making sure you know how strong your claim is.
 

Dphex

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
Cologne, Germany
i will say it this way: its up there with SOTN and SM...how much depends on the person, for me it is better than the two classics. Indeed it is so good that Hollow Knight is on my Top 10 list and i am playing video games since 1989

it is ridiculous to assume it is a flavor of the month game. it´s an instant classic.
 

Dezzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,432
USA
I found Hollow Knight very drab and gave up in just under 3 hours. People keep praising it though and it's been updated with multiple expansions since then, maybe I should give it another shot.

SoTN and Super Metroid kept things interesting with varied areas and enemies, with lots of secrets and items to find that made exploring fun, plus they had great pacing and sense of progression. Hollow Knight just felt like I was trudging through endless tunnels trying to find my way. Maybe I didn't get far enough?
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,982
No, an indie game almost no one has heard of outside of core gaming circles has not dethroned two of the most well known classics of the medium.
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,047
Hollow knight is better than both, but the other two games are decades old. While HK has sold well enough it doesn't have the exposure to compete with two old classics in the eye of the general public.
 

Bonfires Down

Member
Nov 2, 2017
2,814
I found Hollow Knight very drab and gave up in just under 3 hours. People keep praising it though and it's been updated with multiple expansions since then, maybe I should give it another shot.

SoTN and Super Metroid kept things interesting with varied areas and enemies, with lots of secrets and items to find that made exploring fun, plus they had great pacing and sense of progression. Hollow Knight just felt like I was trudging through endless tunnels trying to find my way. Maybe I didn't get far enough?
This is exactly how I felt. Maybe I would have changed my mind if I had continued, but I was closing in on 2 hours played and had to choose whether to refund or not.
 

DNAbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,875
I found Hollow Knight very drab and gave up in just under 3 hours. People keep praising it though and it's been updated with multiple expansions since then, maybe I should give it another shot.

SoTN and Super Metroid kept things interesting with varied areas and enemies, with lots of secrets and items to find that made exploring fun, plus they had great pacing and sense of progression. Hollow Knight just felt like I was trudging through endless tunnels trying to find my way. Maybe I didn't get far enough?

those are the positives I would say about Hollow Knight too.
 

Deleted member 24540

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,599
I don't see much overlap with Super Metroid here, considering combat is the main gameplay element followed by platforming. The level design isn't particularly compelling either.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
It won #21 GOTY 2017 on ResetEra, close behind Mario + Rabbids, and ranked above Samus Returns and other high-budget games like The Evil Within 2, Hellblade, Destiny 2, For Honor, etc.

Not bad for an indie "flavour of the month" that was exclusively on PC at the time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Having played HK and MSR in the same year (2018), I can't think of any way to put Samus Returns above HK.
There's not 1 thing HK doesn't do better.
Even more incredible still if you think about it is the average playtime is something like 2 to 3 times what an average Metroid game is.
By Hour 20, you're already done and know the map by heart in ALL Metroid games INCLUDING the Prime games!
Hollow Knight on an average playthrough it feels like you barely scratched the surface.
It's filled to the brim with content in a way that's rarely seen in a game of that type, I mean it's basically an exploration platformer that is as long as a JRPG.
Made by 2 people...

Easily GOTY 18 so far.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,315
I found Hollow Knight very drab and gave up in just under 3 hours. People keep praising it though and it's been updated with multiple expansions since then, maybe I should give it another shot.

SoTN and Super Metroid kept things interesting with varied areas and enemies, with lots of secrets and items to find that made exploring fun, plus they had great pacing and sense of progression. Hollow Knight just felt like I was trudging through endless tunnels trying to find my way. Maybe I didn't get far enough?
Definitely. The things you praise about SotN and Super Metroid, Hollow Knight has in spades and more. There is so much to find, exploration is always extremely rewarding and it's worth revisiting old areas for new stuff all the time too.
 

Popcicle

Unbroken Studios
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
95
I think Hollow Knight is a great game, but I don't think its even the best contemporary Metroidvania...let alone beats the best in the genre.

Axiom Verge is a better game imo.
 

Xtortion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,638
United States
I don't know if I'd even feel comfortable comparing HK directly to Super Metroid and SotN. As a Metroidvania, Hollow Knight is kinda light on both halves of that title, filling the void with a Soulsborne vibe instead. Super Metroid is more "Metroid" with its more novel powerups and its faster pace of acquiring them, and SotN is more "Vania" with its RPG progression. To me, Hollow Knight feels way more like a 2D Soulsborne with a dash of Metroidvania instead of a full on Metroidvania that begs a comparison to the innovators of the genre.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
I don't know if I'd even feel comfortable comparing HK directly to Super Metroid and SotN. As a Metroidvania, Hollow Knight is kinda light on both halves of that title, filling the void with a Soulsborne vibe instead. Super Metroid is more "Metroid" with its more novel powerups and its faster pace of acquiring them, and SotN is more "Vania" with its RPG progression. To me, Hollow Knight feels way more like a 2D Soulsborne with a dash of Metroidvania instead of a full on Metroidvania that begs a comparison to the innovators of the genre.
Yeah ok no.
I like Super Metroid but come on, there weren't that many new powerups in Super Metroid (and nothing as gamechanging as the spiderball of Metroid II).
On top of that being the template for the genre it's been copied to hell and back making the game a bit to mundane if you discover it now after going through most of the genre till then.
 

Xtortion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,638
United States
Yeah ok no.
I like Super Metroid but come on, there weren't that many new powerups in Super Metroid (and nothing as gamechanging as the spiderball of Metroid II).
On top of that being the template for the genre it's been copied to hell and back making the game a bit to mundane if you discover it now after going through most of the genre till then.

Hollow Knight has the crystal dash and that's about it. Super Metroid's ability set isn't groundbreaking by any measure (certainly not in the wake of Axiom Verge) but I enjoy it a lot more. Stuff like the Speed Booster/shinespark, Grapple Beam and Space Jump are at least a tiny bit more exciting than the normal 2D platformer toolset + cardinal direction shinespark.

Totally disagree about SM feeling mundane on replays. It's progression pacing is insane and unmatched imo, with the game machine gunning cool shit into your face for nearly its entire runtime. And the wall jump is one of gaming's greatest hidden mechanics, up there in the pantheon with dodge offset and Retro's DKCR roll jump where you don't need to do it in 99% of cases but mastering it completely re-contextualizes how the game is approached.