The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

negative-space · Jul 11, 2018

Kraid said:
- The "content creator" committed an act of misogyny with his attempt to mansplain her job to her, regardless if that was his intention

Wow, the mental gymnastics needed to reach this conclusion are really quite something. Using "mansplaining" to shield yourself from criticism and stop discourse in its track is such an anti-social concept, especially on a public social-media platform like Twitter. It makes communicating impossible.

oni-link · Jul 11, 2018

Spyder_Monkey said:
This response of "this totally ain't sexism bro" is exactly how the old site responded to GamerGate early on up until you had to be extremely obtuse to realize the movement's true intentions.

This actually isn't sexism though, this, in isolation, is someone representing a company and being a bit of an ass to someone who was in no way being aggressive, dismissive or antagonistic

I have no idea why she is trying to make it a gender issue. The fact people from a hate movement are jumping on this is frustrating, but the narrative of this guy hiring her just to throw her to the wolfs for doing nothing wrong because she's a women is as bizarre as it is inaccurate

Super Corpse Soldier · Jul 11, 2018

galv said:
Don't explain things to women. Deroir should never have posted his thoughts, criticisms or ideas to the female game developer. He's not an expert. Why should he have any ideas?

Because he's a player experiencing the new story content she's talking about from a consumer's perspective?

Puck Beaverton · Jul 11, 2018

PogChamp said:
I feel like this is the one topic where I need "/s" to stay afloat

I mean, after my little anecdote with the film director I walked on eggshells when tweeting women anything that could be construed as sexist.

Who can say.

Arkanius · Jul 11, 2018

Super Corpse Soldier said:
Because he's a player experiencing the new story content she's talking about from a consumer's perspective?

I think he was being sarcastic.
Actually, I don't know anymore.

Wulfram · Jul 11, 2018

Dude Abides said:
The lesson developers should and probably will take from this is not to engage with players in any but the most sterile and scripted settings.

Better than being bullies.

Nairume · Jul 11, 2018

Labor said:
Real rap I didn't like tb either but I'm not gravedancing on my official account

She didn't either.

On a day industry people were making commentary on his passing, she said that the nicest thing she could say was that she was glad he couldn't hurt people anymore. She wasn't alone in that sentiment, and people shouldn't have had to be quiet if that's how they felt about an incredibly flawed public figure.

Garrett 2U · Jul 11, 2018

BeeKaine said:
No, this is:

That was in response to being called an asshat.

Arkanius said:
See, and this is where everyone is getting this wrong.
The timeline of the tweets is wrong.

After she did that dismissal, she started ANOTHER twitter thread, calling the guy she just answered (before he even said anything afterwards) a "random asshat".

That is totally my mistake, I was misled by the chain of tweets. She called him an asshat before he even responded again. Yeah okay, that is unwarranted in my opinion.

Super Corpse Soldier · Jul 11, 2018

Arkanius said:
I think he was being sarcastic.
Actually, I don't know anymore.

This thread is a mess and a graveyard waiting to happen.

Maneil99 · Jul 11, 2018

Spyder_Monkey said:
This response of "this totally ain't sexism bro" is exactly how the old site responded to GamerGate early on up until you had to be extremely obtuse to realize the movement's true intentions.

Neogaf shut down GG within weeks of the Five Guys video going up. It was a messy situation when it started and the first time the alt right really made an appearance.

That was the first time we saw mass disingenuous arguements

TheYanger · Jul 11, 2018

Garrett 2U said:
While I believe Jessica Price made mistakes by calling a member of the community an "asshat" and improperly representing her company, she had no obligation to eloquently explain to Deroir why his feedback was useless. I believe the best choice would have been not to respond at all to Deroir.

And ArenaNet should not have made such a public statement on the events, knowing fullwell the kind of sexism it would fester.

First point: I don't think anyone said she has that obligation, she simply has an obligation to herself and her professionalism to AT LEAST just brush it off considering it wasn't remotely an attack on her or her work. Being a creative opens you up to criticism, and she wasn't even being critiqued, she was being responded to about a bunch of stuff she posted publically on a site that is designed for people to respond to you posting things like that. If you don't want responses, don't post it, if they bother you without being rude, it behooves you to ignore them, or at least not be flippant about it.

Second point: Absolutely correct. She probably deserved to be severely talked to with the way she was acting on social media, and that very well may have led to a firing depending on how meetings went, but there's no reason to make a 'statement' to appease a crowd that is thirsty for blood solely because of gamergate shit. I firmly believe anyone trying to witch hunt an employee over that shit is exactly the kind of GG person they're being made out to be.

Like, I don't think she's wrong to be fired, but a normal, rational person wouldn't be foaming at the fucking mouth wishing for it to happen such that Anet should be responding to you either.

DerpHause · Jul 11, 2018

galv said:
Don't explain things to women. Deroir should never have posted his thoughts, criticisms or ideas to the female game developer. He's not an expert. Why should he have any ideas?

I'm genuinely having trouble if "don't explain things to women" is intended as sarcasm or a legitimate stance of saying men are socially not allowed to disagree with women.

Or I want to be confused, but as I read it I'm seeing that I'm seeing that it seems to sincerely mean "don't ever talk to women you disagree with unless your credentials outweigh their's."

Is that legitimately the goal here?

BeeKaine · Jul 11, 2018

Garrett 2U said:
That is totally my mistake, I was misled by the chain of tweets. She called him an asshat before he even responded again. Yeah okay, that is unwarranted in my opinion.

Well, good. At least you are better informed.

Vicious17 · Jul 11, 2018

Khanimus said:
Hate campaigns ain't new. ANet should be aware as to how their actions, and the actions of the development community, relates and can be perceived. We do not exist in a world where they can exist independent of that.

Price could be way out of line and be venting in a real negative way that makes her look bad, but ANet should also be considering who is bringing that complaint to their desk. Because I doubt they would have acted in response to those tweets alone, but instead to the backlash from a specifically angry part of that community.

But, that's what a public company does. Of course her firing was reactionary, that doesn't mean it wasn't justified.

IF this was posted on her private twitter, with no relation to ANET, she might have at worst gotten a slap in the wrist. But, that's not what she did, she posted on a public account directly linked to ArenaNet. That doesn't exactly look good. Especially not when this isn't her first time doing so.

Draconis · Jul 11, 2018

Twig said:
I read that post.

You still made the comparison. Unwarranted. Irrelevant. Inappropriate.

I am sorry that you feel that way. We'll have to agree to disagree. I made the point to illustrate that one's actions on Twitter do impact outside of said social space, since others were saying a Twitter account should be held as private and should not be relevant in that regards.

Thusly, I felt it warranted discussion and bringing up as a point as I feel that one's actions on Social Media, no matter the root of them, should have consequences if they are being unprofessional when representing their company, even if unintentionally doing so.

Deleted member 15326 · Jul 11, 2018

Nairume said:
She didn't either.

On a day industry people were making commentary on his passing, she said that the nicest thing she could say was that she was glad he couldn't hurt people anymore. She wasn't alone in that sentiment, and people shouldn't have had to be quiet if that's how they felt about an incredibly flawed public figure.

Ok

BigJeffery · Jul 11, 2018

Butt-shot Katana said:
Reading this thread is illuminating about just how many people defend the sort of power structures that private ownership entails.

No one even questions whether this state of affairs is reasonable. Instead they filter all responses entirely through an a priority acceptance of private property without attributing any of the problems illustrated TO private property.

It's as if most folks are saying, "Clearly it's acceptable that a small group of people can completely extend or withdraw a laborer'' ability to continue to be gainfully employed."

It's not acceptable, but this is hardly the first time this has happened. It's just usually people that ERA dislikes that are being targeted.

HellofaMouse · Jul 11, 2018

Butt-shot Katana said:
It's as if most folks are saying, "Clearly it's acceptable that a small group of people can completely extend or withdraw a laborer'' ability to continue to be gainfully employed."

within a clearly defined ruleset, they can withdraw a laborer's ability to continue to be gainfully employed in the company they work at.

if what you mean by "small group of people" are the managers, then yes, it is definitely acceptable and necessary to have the ability to fire people.

if you are refering to the "hate mob", we dont have enough information about the internal situation at Anet to reach the conclusion that they were fired because of the hate mob. we have some good evidence it was due to the employee's actions tho, a whole twitter history in fact.

Aztechnology · Jul 11, 2018

Arkanius said:
See, and this is where everyone is getting this wrong.
The timeline of the tweets is wrong.

After she did that dismissal, she started ANOTHER twitter thread, calling the guy she just answered (before he even said anything afterwards) a "random asshat".

Right, up to that point it was a sharp dismissive comment. Which was rude, yea. But not a real issue.

BigJeffery · Jul 11, 2018

Nairume said:
She didn't either.

On a day industry people were making commentary on his passing, she said that the nicest thing she could say was that she was glad he couldn't hurt people anymore. She wasn't alone in that sentiment, and people shouldn't have had to be quiet if that's how they felt about an incredibly flawed public figure.

lmao yea that's definitely not grave dancing.

Mifune · Jul 11, 2018

Yeah, maybe if you find yourself arguing on the side of Gamergate, it's time to reassess your position.

This firing is going to do nothing but stifle communication between developers and players. And embolden the shitheads out there to go after industry women for hurting their feelings.

YuriCloud3 · Jul 11, 2018

Today express anything on internet can destroy you in seconds. Maybe because what you said is wrong or misuntertood. A dangerous place to be if you habe a job

Deleted member 2171 · Jul 11, 2018

negative-space said:
I think O'Brien's statement was perfect.

And that's what it boils down to in the end. If Deroir was being rude and genuinely abusive, i'd be the first to scream in Jessica's defence, but the absolute reality of the situation is that he wasn't. Jessica took criticism as a personal attack and lashed out in some unhinged frenzy, that made both her and her company look terrible.

Trying to spin it so she is the victim and the GW2 community drove her out because sexism is so utterly disingenuous and I'm honestly so disappointed people are falling for it. The games media pushing this when the evidence clearly doesn't back it up just makes me lose whatever faith I had left in them. They're intentionally misleading their readers, for either clicks/ad revenue (most likely) or more worryingly, to spread outrage to further splinter the gaming community. Either way, they should be ashamed of themselves.

O'Brien's statement is spineless, feckless tripe from someone that, under the slightest of pressure, was willing to shove two employees out the door to be on the good side, then pulled a Trump-esque "no, YOU'RE the chilling effect" response. Nah. No. Developers are not the property of gamers. They do not work for their company off the block. The idea that they owe gamers a fake smile is .. well, stupid. People seem to have forgotten their criticisms for a game stop at the game, and don't entitle them to bile directed personally.

Moreover, O'Brian's response escalated the vitriol. He didn't even bother with the "don't go after them, what's done is done", he just immersed right into "I SAVED EVERYTHING YOU GUYS, LIKE ME". Meanwhlie, multiple female devs are now reporting on twitter that, empowered by this fool, they're getting emails and messages sent to all their supervisors asking for them to be fired with varying levels of threatening language, and in one case, even automating a template to do it. This harassment and hate group lives off the idea that they're secretly wanted, and a head of a well known company endorsing their methodology did not make them calm back down, but has ignited their fervor to fuel even more targeting.

Developers, full stop, need to be able to talk honestly, they are not on the clock 24/7, and they owe you nothing for personal conversation. Trade of money for something they make does not make them your toy. O'Brian has just set back developer/player public relations by years.

Interested Observer · Jul 11, 2018

negative-space said:
Wow, the mental gymnastics needed to reach this conclusion are really quite something. Using "mansplaining" to shield yourself from criticism and stop discourse in its track is such an anti-social concept, especially on a public social-media platform like Twitter. It makes communicating impossible.

It's actually embarrassing. How the fuck do people come up with this nonsense?

By asking a polite question, the Twitter user was exhibiting a "hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women" to use the definition. Give me a fucking break.

BDS · Jul 11, 2018

PogChamp said:
From my perspective, that actually makes me feel a bit regretful. When a friend is venting, I let them vent, but then I want to help them find solutions so that their suffering can be resolved. And suggesting that saying nothing might be the best help... makes me feel really confused and powerless. Like there is nothing I can do for them. Even though I really want to help. And this isn't to say that they are powerless to solve their issues on their own, I just want them to know that I am there for them if they need me. And I just can't resolve that if a man was venting to me and I offered solutions, this would be ok. But that a woman might be genuinely offended by it.

Is it really the case, that there was no appropriate way for him to offer advice in that situation?

I think most people would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a friend. When a friend offers advice and suggestions you know that they're doing it from a place of wanting to help you. When it's some random person on the internet who doesn't know you, or a coworker with whom you don't have much of a relationship, it's more frustrating. Also, in many cases a person actually might be looking for your advice when they discuss something. Usually an easy way to tell (in person) is if they're making eye contact or waiting for your responses, which would suggest they want your input, versus sort of just ranting aimlessly, which would indicate they probably aren't looking for suggestions.

Honestly, it doesn't even hurt to just ask. "Do you want to just vent for a bit?"

MigrantOwl · Jul 11, 2018

This thread is just embarrassing. An employee mistreated a customer and was fired for it. It had nothing to do with her gender and people desperately clinging to the GamerGate narrative is just baffling. Price fucked up being so aggressive to someone just trying to engage her in a conversation about something they both clearly have a vested interest in. Arena Net could have handled the firing better, but I absolutely agree with the action that was taken. You can't behave like that when you are representing your employer.

Nairume · Jul 11, 2018

BigJeffery said:
lmao yea that's definitely not grave dancing.

Good, I'm glad we agree.

Sarcasm aside, there is a difference

Nista · Jul 11, 2018

Dude Abides said:
The lesson developers should and probably will take from this is not to engage with players in any but the most sterile and scripted settings.

A return to magazine puff pieces and streams with all the most innocuous sanitized questions chosen from the audience.

I'd really hate to be a PR or community person these days. Fans were on the whole more civil back in the 80s and 90s, and the edgy ones couldn't band together in hateful groups as easily.

BeeKaine · Jul 11, 2018

Mifune said:
Yeah, maybe if you find yourself arguing on the side of Gamergate, it's time to reassess your position.

Time to stop playing Breath of the Wild.

Dude Abides · Jul 11, 2018

Kinthey said:
Another option would be to not call players random asshats after they made some polite tweets but both work.

A better option is not to talk to players at all.

galv · Jul 11, 2018

DerpHause said:
I'm genuinely having trouble if "don't explain things to women" is intended as sarcasm or a legitimate stance of saying men are socially not allowed to disagree with women.

Or I want to be confused, but as I read it I'm seeing that I'm seeing that it seems to sincerely mean "don't ever talk to women you disagree with unless your credentials outweigh their's."

Is that legitimately the goal here?

That's exactly what that post means, yes.

Vicious17 · Jul 11, 2018

BeeKaine said:
Time to stop playing Breath of the Wild.

I think I missed something. What's up with BotW?

Yabab · Jul 11, 2018

I guess I'll drop my two cents here. I think the firing was justified. The guy politely disagreed, but at no point saying she was wrong. She vented on him when talking about a topic related to the company she works at and got canned for creating bad press.

If anything, this is the culmination of what ResetERA and some of gaming media has been fighting for: to be heard and acknowledged.

The mechanism thorough which this woman was fired is the same mechanism that contributed to online passes to go away, that made Battlefront 2 flop and every other time social pressure accomplished anything.

It accomplished something because the commotion hurt the company's bottom line. Now everyone's running scared that any negative social media story about them will hurt them like it other companies thorughout the last decade. Specially an up and coming one like ArenaNet that has a game out, but is not a household name. They don't want to lose any of the good will they built up with their active user base.

El Bombastico · Jul 11, 2018

Dude Abides said:
The lesson developers should and probably will take from this is not to engage with players in any but the most sterile and scripted settings.

A better one be would be to tell their employees that if they want to interact with their fans via social media, remember than anything and everything they say will be out there for people to see, so chose your words carefully.

Super Corpse Soldier · Jul 11, 2018

Mifune said:
Yeah, maybe if you find yourself arguing on the side of Gamergate, it's time to reassess your position.

This firing is going to do nothing but stifle communication between developers and players. And embolden the shitheads out there to go after industry women for hurting their feelings.

And if your on the side of people harassing Deroir because he "got Jessica Price Fired" and "He the kind of person women fear being alone with" maybe it's time you reassess your position.

oni-link · Jul 11, 2018

FyreWulff said:
Developers, full stop, need to be able to talk honestly, they are not on the clock 24/7, and they owe you nothing for personal conversation. Trade of money for something they make does not make them your toy. O'Brian has just set back developer/player public relations by years.

They can, and if she was polite to him and explained why she disagreed, it's likely they'd have had an interesting debate, she could have also ignored him, blocked him, whatever

She decided to out of no where act like an asshole, and her employee decided that was unacceptable

I work for a University, if I act like a dick to students went I'm off the clock and my employer find out, I'm sure they'd take issue with that as well

SirBaron · Jul 11, 2018

JudgmentJay said:
Fucking yikes. This thread is insane.

Truer words cannot be spoken.

You don't keep toxic people just because it Might Empower toxic groups if you get rid of them out of their own false perceived victories. That's ridiculous logic.

You get rid of toxic people regardless of what group may claim "victory".

You get rid of toxic people because its the right thing to do.

BeeKaine · Jul 11, 2018

Vicious17 said:
I think I missed something. What's up with BotW?

I was making a joke about "reassessing your position [if you agree with GamerGate]" by bringing up a game they are likely to play.

The intent is lampooning the idea that morality and the right decision is predicated not on the actual context or situation, but what the other do and don't do.

Deleted member 15326 · Jul 11, 2018

If someone can give me a link to their workplace where it's cool to shit on customers out of pent-up frustration I'd appreciate

As long as the pay is right of course

BigJeffery · Jul 11, 2018

Nairume said:
Good, I'm glad we agree.

Sarcasm aside, there is a difference

I hate arguing this because I legitimately think its dumb that she got fired and I think that going after people's posts to tattle on them is moronic, but you're being willfully obtuse if you don't see how her post is grave dancing. "I'm glad he can't hurt anyone anymore" is an insane thing to write about a guy that had bad politics and reviewed PC games lmao

Janna OP · Jul 11, 2018

tbh if price was a man and deroir was a woman, nobody here would even care about this topic at all.

Altera · Jul 11, 2018

Dude Abides said:
The lesson developers should and probably will take from this is not to engage with players in any but the most sterile and scripted settings.

If those developers have as difficult of a time as Jessica did not being toxic and disrespectful, then yes, those particular developers should probably just not respond to anyone at all.

Interested Observer · Jul 11, 2018

Super Corpse Soldier said:
And if your on the side of people harassing Deroir because he "got Jessica Price Fired" and "He the kind of person women fear being alone with" maybe it's time you reassess your position.

Wat

Where did that come from?

JeTmAn · Jul 11, 2018

Janna OP said:
tbh if price was a man and deroir was a woman, nobody here would even care about this topic at all.

The pitchforks would all be pointed in the same direction, that's for sure.

Aztechnology · Jul 11, 2018

El Bombastico said:
A better one be would be to tell their employees that if they want to interact with their fans via social media, remember than anything and everything they say will be out there for people to see, so chose your words carefully.

This I agree with. There is no such thing as privacy in social media, and to a greater extent a world connected to social media.

Trickster · Jul 11, 2018

Mifune said:
Yeah, maybe if you find yourself arguing on the side of Gamergate, it's time to reassess your position.

This firing is going to do nothing but stifle communication between developers and players. And embolden the shitheads out there to go after industry women for hurting their feelings.

This would literally mean never being critical of something a woman does.

Vicious17 · Jul 11, 2018

BeeKaine said:
I was making a joke about "reassessing your position [if you agree with GamerGate]" by bringing up a game they are likely to play.

The intent is lampooning the idea that morality and the right decision is predicated not on the actual context or situation, but what the other do and don't do.

Ah, I missed that. Thank you.

HellofaMouse · Jul 11, 2018

Janna OP said:
tbh if price was a man and deroir was a woman, nobody here would even care about this topic at all.

dont think its a good idea to get into the ifs and buts

BigJeffery · Jul 11, 2018

Trickster said:
This would literally mean never being able to hold a critical view of something a woman does.

I mean, according to a few people in this thread you already can't lol.

Interested Observer · Jul 11, 2018

Janna OP said:
tbh if price was a man and deroir was a woman, nobody here would even care about this topic at all.

Are you out of your mind? A male developer talking like that to a woman, he'd be the devil (with some justification).

The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)

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