• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Watch it happen. They gave the mob what it wanted once, why would they stop?
As I said before, other developers at Arenanet were targeted by Gamer Gate and were protected by the company and weren't fired.

I understand people's nervousness when a female developer suddenly get a lot of criticism after the harassment campaigns by GamerGate.

In formerly Gaf and Resetera we're generally super sensitive to how marginalized developers get treated. We know that you don't have to dig too far to find cesspits of reactionary rightwing gamer-gators jumping at the chance to actively hurt people.

But sometimes people actually fuck up. No one made Price lash out at Deroir. That was entirely her choice. And she broke company conduct standards for interacting with the community. Fries, too.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
I just can't believe how hard people are trying to turn this guy
https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat

into the villain here, with some dark ulterior motives

He didn't even get involved with any of the cries to fire her.

It wasn't needed. His viewers community did all the job. The point is: intent doesn't need to be consciously malicious to be disrespectful or hurtful. He acted all offended because his feedback was refused, something she didn't had to accept or consider and started launching tantrums. When you are a youtuber or has followers, that's all they need.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
The video clip of him praising her the day before seems to be mysteriously absent from Twitter threads calling him a gamergate sleeper agent
 

Bird

Member
Dec 7, 2017
341
Florida
He wasn't trying to have a conversation. That's some victim card bullshit. His language very clearly stated that he was telling his opinion to her and then he was closing off further discussion on the matter. She mildly told him to knock it off, and he responded by overreacting and throwing a tantrum. Just because he used "nice" words does not excuse the vile subtext.
To me the mansplainy part is in the way he explains he has a disagreement. Would you agree?

I can't see his reaction in a negative light, but it's so hard to read tone on Twitter. People need to use emojis more :/
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,351
These people have been a constant pest ever since GG though, not sure what's supposed to have changed so dramatically with Price's firing.

Like, do people expect that now company will start firing their female staff for no real reason other than being targeted by this "campaign"?
Once companies got a handle on understanding GG, they stopped taking them seriously for the most part, but some have thought they no longer existed. I remember hearing some podcaster suggest that because they weren't trending highly on Google that they didn't exist anymore, which is silly.

This dev got a lot of shit for talking about the story about the lack of women CEOs in Germany's game industry, which then got reported to her employer and wrote up a Twitter thread about it



Her employer's public statement about the issue.

 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,178
He wasn't trying to have a conversation. That's some victim card bullshit. His language very clearly stated that he was telling his opinion to her and then he was closing off further discussion on the matter. She mildly told him to knock it off, and he responded by overreacting and throwing a tantrum. Just because he used "nice" words does not excuse the vile subtext.

mildly is not the how i wouldve described her response
 

Falconbox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,600
Buffalo, NY
Are some really arguing that you should be free of consequence to say whatever you want on social media because GamerGate/alt-right may take credit for any possible blow back?

I don't know about that 2nd part, but the first part always gets brought up here.

Everyone always says "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence", but that apparently goes out the window when the consequence happens to someone some people believe to be right.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
He wasn't trying to have a conversation. That's some victim card bullshit. His language very clearly stated that he was telling his opinion to her and then he was closing off further discussion on the matter. She mildly told him to knock it off, and he responded by overreacting and throwing a tantrum. Just because he used "nice" words does not excuse the vile subtext.
Vile subtext?

Can you please elaborate?
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
He wasn't trying to have a conversation. That's some victim card bullshit. His language very clearly stated that he was telling his opinion to her and then he was closing off further discussion on the matter. She mildly told him to knock it off, and he responded by overreacting and throwing a tantrum. Just because he used "nice" words does not excuse the vile subtext.
How is he throwing a tantrum or overreacting? He just said he was disappointed and literally backed off.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
Once companies got a handle on understanding GG, they stopped taking them seriously for the most part, but some have thought they no longer existed. I remember hearing some podcaster suggest that because they weren't trending highly on Google that they didn't exist anymore, which is silly.

This dev got a lot of shit for talking about the story about the lack of women CEOs in Germany's game industry, which then got reported to her employer and wrote up a Twitter thread about it



Her employer's public statement about the issue.



Well, with gamergate going into year 4 most companies worth a shit are aware of how they operate...even if the industry at large refuses to condemn it or some of its highly visible participants...even occasionally awarding them...
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,328
It wasn't needed. His viewers community did all the job. The point is: intent doesn't need to be consciously malicious to be disrespectful or hurtful. He acted all offended because his feedback was refused, something she didn't had to accept or consider and started launching tantrums. When you are a youtuber or has followers, that's all they need.
He felt offended at the passive agressive remark, oh the nerve he has, and then this deceitful master even apologised and backed out. All according to keikaku to get his favorite writer fired.

That she kept this going by "Today in a life of a female dev..." and insulting him as "rando asshat" is all on her. By that point he was already out. She put a bigger spotlight on this than he did.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
He wasn't trying to have a conversation. That's some victim card bullshit. His language very clearly stated that he was telling his opinion to her and then he was closing off further discussion on the matter. She mildly told him to knock it off, and he responded by overreacting and throwing a tantrum. Just because he used "nice" words does not excuse the vile subtext.

Yeah none of this happened in actual reality.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
Jessica Price just started tweeting about the situation.



Hope she lands on her feet, and hopefully she'll learn to control her anger a bit though, and maybe treat her fans a bit nicer on Twitter.

I wish her the best.

He wasn't trying to have a conversation. That's some victim card bullshit. His language very clearly stated that he was telling his opinion to her and then he was closing off further discussion on the matter. She mildly told him to knock it off, and he responded by overreacting and throwing a tantrum. Just because he used "nice" words does not excuse the vile subtext.

Not saying you're wrong, but this sound more like a speculation than fact? He was clearly trying to have a conversation with a writer he always admired, and he did so very respectfully.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,339
I definitely would be updating my resume if I was at Arenanet. Getting fired is one thing. Directing internet mobs at your employees as you fire them is fucking horrific behavior from an employer.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
You're searching for subtext where there is none.
no, you're missing a subtext where it's incredibly obvious.

whenever I post gamedev stuff on Twitter and someone comments telling me how I should change it to make it better, it's literally always a man saying that. And there's never room for conversation either. It's just "I'm right because I'm used to being right and you're wrong because I feel like it". So I sympathize with Price because I've been there countless times and I know what she describes is completely a real thing.

instead of getting defensive about this, count your blessings that this never has to happen to you.
 

bad_carbs

Member
Oct 25, 2017
917
Imagine people constantly ask you those questions every day regarding the posts you make about the work you do. "hey have you thought about this?" "why didn't you consider this option?" "I'm not sure that's what I would have done, and here's why." "no but seriously have you thought about this." That seems to be the experience Price has had, and it might also compound what we've heard time and again from women in the gaming industry: coworkers and colleagues checking women's credentials, second-guessing them, making sure they really know their stuff because of subtle, unexamined prejudices about whether women can actually do game dev work or not.

Plus, it's simply exhausting to constantly respond to people's questions about your work. Did she invite discussion by posting her commentary about writing for the player character in MMOs? Or did she just want to say her piece and leave it at that? Stating an opinion does not require you to engage in discussion afterwards. If it did, then we would have laws barring newspapers from closing comment sections.

You saw the one instance where she snapped. And by "snapped" I mean called someone a "rando asshat." What may appear unprovoked to you is not necessarily unprovoked, even if that one person that was the straw that broke the camel's back was genuine and had good intentions.

Does that mean what she did was right? Maybe not. Is it worth maybe offering her the tiniest bit of empathy when it comes to considering whether she should be fired or not? In my view, 100% absolutely goddamned yes.
That's the thing, nobody really brought up the issue of women in the industry but herself. She was needlessly snarky about it, too. I could've gone and just said "Thanks for your feedback!" or whatever or just not reply at all. Not that hard to do, really. But she chose to be hostile. Which is weird, because Price was very informative and polite during the AMA. She gave some great insights about the game's story/processes.

And she seems to have a history with comments like these and not isolated to that one comment that may have played the part in her firing. I definitely wouldn't have fired her for just one tweet because she was having a bad day.
It was kind of mansplaining. Mansplaining is thinking that you, a random person with a YouTube or Twitch channel, have the right to "provide feedback" to a 10 year veteran writer who wasn't actually asking for it. It's also an extension of the idea that influencers operate on a similar level to actual subject matter experts simply because they have a following. I don't think he had malicious intentions, but you don't need ill intent to be condescending.

Price's reaction could have been better, but Anet didn't even give her the opportunity to apologize.

And of course, the angrier corners of the gaming internet, like GamerGate supporters, alt right types, and YongYea, are all over this story.
Is that what mansplaining really is? I mean I get it, having some feedback shoved into your face out of nowhere like that can be annoying, but that kind of comment wouldn't be any different if Price was a guy.

And of course the GGer's would be all over this. They are pricks. There is nothing to suggest that they have anything to do with Price's firing, just jumped on the bandwagon afterwards. Unless I'm wrong about that?
 

FF Seraphim

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,735
Tokyo
I wish her the best, hope she lands on her feet, and hopefully she'll learn to control her anger a bit though, and maybe treat her fans a bit nicer on Twitter.

Reading those the posts, I do not know if she will. She doesn't say anything about her response and more about how the company was wrong in their actions. Which I can understand since they did fire her and I personally wouldn't be happy with if I was in her shoes.
 

Kuosi

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,366
Finland
You need to learn a lot about subtext.


Sugarcoating your mansplaining doesn't make it any less insidious. Complaining that a woman won't sit still while you defecate all over her is pretty poor form.
I'd say let us respectfully disagree, but that would mostlikely be perceived as deceitful and me throwing a tantrum.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
She doesn't need to treat condescending people telling her how to do her job nice. For Christy sake.

It seems like you're trying to enshrine immunity from disagreement as a defense for being a shitheel to someone.

Derior wasn't condescending. She sure as hell was.

Sugarcoating your mansplaining doesn't make it any less insidious. Complaining that a woman won't sit still while you defecate all over her is pretty poor form.

Except that's not what happened unless any disagreement from someone who doesn't have a resume matching hers is "mansplaining" now. Which if it is then I guess we've reached the point where cross gendered discussion is impossible without first submitting sufficient credentials.
 

HellofaMouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,178
and that's the problem

can you tell me at which point from "stop mansplaining" to "im glad person is dead of cancer", something stops being mild in your opinion?

at which point should we stop paying attention to the actual text of a tweet, and start coming up with whatever subtext most supports our own agenda and focus on that instead?
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
I'd say let us respectfully disagree, but that would mostlikely be perceived as deceitful and me throwing a tantrum.
Please don't put words in my mouth. That's not helpful to either of us.

What does respectfully disagreeing get us anyway? Besides enabling more abuse towards women. If someone is disrespecting women then, flat out, they have not earned my respect.
 

Nassudan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,349
Reading those the posts, I do not know if she will. She doesn't say anything about her response and more about how the company was wrong in their actions. Which I can understand since they did fire her and I personally wouldn't be happy with if I was in her shoes.

The fact that she's doubling down (based on the polygon interview) tells me she's learned absolutely nothing from this. If what I read is to be believed she was fired from another game company for similar reasons.

I wouldn't expect her to find another job in games any time soon.

Edit:

Fries was fired (the merits of that are certainly debatable) and based on his twitter posts on the matter he's handling it professionally, i.e. the way you're supposed to. He'll be fine.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,328
It seems like you're trying to enshrine immunity from disagreement as a defense for being a shitheel to someone.

Derior wasn't condescending. She sure as hell was.
Yeah, it blows my mind that people now think she didn't even make a mistake. Personally I think it was an overreaction that she was fired, but it's clear as day that she was in the wrong here.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,384
can you tell me at which point from "stop mansplaining" to "im glad person is dead of cancer", something stops being mild in your opinion?

at which point should we stop paying attention to the actual text of a tweet, and start coming up with whatever subtext most supports our own agenda and focus on that instead?

This "subtext" is disingenuous as ever.
 

Bonefish

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,698
User Banned (3 Days): Vilifying media outlets + accusing journalists of false reporting
Yeah, it blows my mind that people now think she didn't even make a mistake. Personally I think it was an overreaction that she was fired, but it's clear as day that she was in the wrong here.
Sites like Polygon and Waypoint are doing their best to frame the whole thing this way, basically ignoring reality. It's gross af.
 

Blade Wolf

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,512
Taiwan
She doesn't need to treat condescending people telling her how to do her job nice. For Christy sake.

I really REALLY don't think Deroir was being condescending, nor was he telling her how to do her job.

IUiPgCC.png


Sound like a typical NeoGAF/ResetEra conversation, and a fairly civil one at that. If you can't even handle this then I don't know what to say other than you *might* have an ego problem.
 

Nassudan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,349
Paizo Publishing. She was an editor for Pathfinder.

Ah thanks for that. And despite being table top game company, they have relationships with a few game studios (Obsidian, etc).

For her sake I hope she has a backup plan/strong network outside the industry.

Sites like Polygon and Waypoint are doing their best to frame the whole thing this way, basically ignoring reality. It's gross af.

I'd call it laziness more than anything, about on par with games "journalism".
 

Taruranto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,049
She doesn't need to treat condescending people telling her how to do her job nice. For Christy sake.
You may as well close every forum ever (Including this one), because it's full of "condescending" people constantly criticizing developers or disagreeing with their choices.

Come on now. He was trying to have an open discuss with someone he admired. He got bit back for no reason at all.
 

Deleted member 8861

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,564
Not before telling all the people that he deserved an answer to his insightful comment and that he didn't do anything wrong.
How is him literally *retracting his previous statement* him persistently demanding an answer? Almost as soon as things blew up he distanced himself from things and I really don't get how you're painting that as someone acting so entitled. He accepted he wasn't going to get an answer and backed off
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Reading those the posts, I do not know if she will. She doesn't say anything about her response and more about how the company was wrong in their actions. Which I can understand since they did fire her and I personally wouldn't be happy with if I was in her shoes.
Yeah. Like MikeO said this in his statement:

I hate to let an employee go, and I wish the best for Jessica and Peter, as for any former employee, in whatever they choose to do next.

Whatever you thought of the tweets, Jessica and Peter were also part of the team that brought you the kidnapping scene in Episode 1, which was a wonderfully well-executed scene. That's how I want to remember their time at ArenaNet.

The reason the kidnapping scene was brought up is because that was the single most widely praised story segment the game has ever had, and everyone applauded it for the sheer tension that GW2's story had actually never had before. It's widely agreed to be the single best GW2's story has ever been (Except for last week's patch which likely surpassed it, and was also worked on by Jessica and Peter).

I get the sentiment behind it. "Let's put the drama past us and think remember their time at the company creating some of the best content the franchise has ever had."

To which she responds with:



Like... he just gave an example of you being involved one of the game's all time highs. It wasn't supposed to be your full credit list.